Which came first: Logic or Mathematics/Numbers?

Howdy peeps,

eYe figured that question would be a great question to toss out to the ATS freakz that hang in this forum, to see what the general census is, since eYe've heard many say that Numbers are of human creation or that Numbers don't exist, and if either are true then where did Logic come from?

Sew which came first, Logic or Mathematics/Numbers?

Ribbit

Ps: On the question:

"Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg?"

When applied to the posed question, which applies to which? Is Logic the Egg or is Logic the Chicken and vice versa or dew the questions kNot cross-relate to one antother? Also, don't forget the Coin Rule, which provides there are Five possible answers:

1. Heads (Logic)
2. Tails (Mathematics/Numbers)
3. Edge (Both and/or Neither)

reply to post by ButtUglyToad


nunbers always have,and always will exist! final!
humans discovered them and logic followed. think about the fist 'cavemen'.one guy notices his mate has a few more apples than he does so he gets mad and evens out the 'number' of apples to be fair.
so he saw the 'numbers' were off,then logic kicked in. he understood counting!
make sense?

Wouldn't logic come first? Since you had to use Mathematics in an orderly fashion for that formula to be correct. Without logic first math would be nothing but random numbers. Logic sets the rules for mathematics.

logic, pure logic, is a Greek development. an entire school of logic was born.

without the Greeks we would not have "logic"

it is a philosophical thing not a mathematical thing.

numbers existed since at least Mesopotamia (Babylon) and the earliest known use of writing is for accounting... numbers.

long before there was a school of logic.

(:

also.. eggs came first .. since dinosaurs laid eggs, and existed millions of years before chickens.

Mathematics is the conceptual study of Set Logic. Set Logic is what determines the impact that static and/or dynamic existential wholes have upon one another within the framework of a defined contextual association. When a relative contextual environment (this is real, given the following factors) is established, it will be dynamically affected by the malleable nature of all that exists within its confines, and as it is affected, unique parameters emerge that can be anticipated if one applies specific mathematical formulas to the determination effort. This is the basic idea of math as an applicable science, and it's been standardized on the principles of Set Logic. And Set Logic is a progression of the simplest forms of fundamental Logic (A+B=C therefore C-B=A).

This means that Logic came first, and humanity invented math to study it and apply what could be learned to dealing effectively with practical issues.

Originally posted by ButtUglyToad
Howdy peeps,

eYe figured that question would be a great question to toss out to the ATS freakz that hang in this forum, to see what the general census is, since eYe've heard many say that Numbers are of human creation or that Numbers don't exist, and if either are true then where did Logic come from?

Sew which came first, Logic or Mathematics/Numbers?

Ribbit

Looking at it from a logical/critical thinking way, Logic came first as pre-historic man had to adapt and find ways of attempting to accomplish what they needed to do(ie. how to make the most effective spear or arrow for hunting, this contained no math only shapes). This was accomplished through trial and error showing a thought pattern of thinking through other ways of doing something. Math came later, I believe, through value and trade.

Ps: On the question:

"Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg?"

When applied to the posed question, which applies to which? Is Logic the Egg or is Logic the Chicken and vice versa or dew the questions kNot cross-relate to one antother?

Also, don't forget the Coin Rule, which provides there are Five possible answers:

1. Heads (Logic)
2. Tails (Mathematics/Numbers)
3. Edge (Both and/or Neither)

This answer depends on ones beliefs. If one believes in evolution, the answer is simple, as, in the question, it does not state what comes first a CHICKENS EGG or the chicken. Therefore the answer is the egg as reptiles came first. If one believes in creationism then God created the chicken first and reproduction came after.

Originally posted by okamitengu
logic, pure logic, is a Greek development. an entire school of logic was born.

without the Greeks we would not have "logic"

it is a philosophical thing not a mathematical thing.

numbers existed since at least Mesopotamia (Babylon) and the earliest known use of writing is for accounting... numbers.

long before there was a school of logic.

(:

also.. eggs came first .. since dinosaurs laid eggs, and existed millions of years before chickens.

um....the STUDY of logic started with the Greeks. Logic itself is primordial. Humanity didn't invent it. Man, this is stuff that no one should get turned around on. The basic foundations of physical existence rely on raw logic and as progressive development increases in complexity the structure shifts to Set Logic for stability. Why does anyone have to explain this to anyone anymore?

reply to post by NorEaster


fance answer eh! no seriously,i enjoyed your reply.very insightful.
but one could argue that ever sinse the big bang,numbers existed.we discovered them.
asronamers now can measre the size of our sun. 10,000 years ago we couldnt.
just because it took us this long to have learned this,it doesnt mean the measurements werent there!

Originally posted by reficul
reply to post by NorEaster

 

fance answer eh!

no seriously,i enjoyed your reply.very insightful.
but one could argue that ever sinse the big bang,numbers existed.we discovered them.
asronamers now can measre the size of our sun. 10,000 years ago we couldnt.
just because it took us this long to have learned this,it doesnt mean the measurements werent there!

Dimensions may have existed from the beginning but math is a descriptive for a logical minds understanding.

Logic as in I have no apples and I'm hungry and weak and my neighbor has a lot and he's strong so logic dictates that I wait till he's asleep and I sneek up and bash his skull and take all the apples. See no numbers just logic

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by okamitengu
logic, pure logic, is a Greek development. an entire school of logic was born.

without the Greeks we would not have "logic"

it is a philosophical thing not a mathematical thing.

numbers existed since at least Mesopotamia (Babylon) and the earliest known use of writing is for accounting... numbers.

long before there was a school of logic.

(:

also.. eggs came first .. since dinosaurs laid eggs, and existed millions of years before chickens.

um....the STUDY of logic started with the Greeks. Logic itself is primordial. Humanity didn't invent it. Man, this is stuff that no one should get turned around on. The basic foundations of physical existence rely on raw logic and as progressive development increases in complexity the structure shifts to Set Logic for stability. Why does anyone have to explain this to anyone anymore?

NorEaster, eYe've been asking the same question, considering Logic is at the foundation of All, for even dumber-than-dumb chickens have Logic, for how would they know what to eat or what to drink if they didn't? They'd drown otherwise. Even insects have Logic.

Many peeps, if kNot most, don't realize they can't tie their shoes without Logic.

You're dew'n a good job arguing, sew eYe's gonna kick back and watch the NorEaster blow in.

Ribbit

Ps: What if the Chicken showed up with a pre-fertilized egg in Her? Could Logic have Mathematics/Numbers within it as well, thus, as with the Chicken scenario, which had to be a Hen and the Egg had to be a Rooster, then Logic would be the Mother of Mathematics/Numbers as well? Thus, could it kNot be said that Logic is the Mother of All!

Originally posted by reficul
reply to post by NorEaster

 

fance answer eh!

no seriously,i enjoyed your reply.very insightful.
but one could argue that ever sinse the big bang,numbers existed.we discovered them.
asronamers now can measre the size of our sun. 10,000 years ago we couldnt.
just because it took us this long to have learned this,it doesnt mean the measurements werent there!

Numbers are contextual representations of qualities and quantities that actually exist. Human invented numbers to help illustrate and examine these qualities and quantities. The Sumerians worked off a base-six numbering system - meaning that it was 4 numbers less than our present base-10 numbering system. That should be instructive in this examination of the primordial nature (or not) of numbers. The Sumerians (basically) invented numbers (in the sense of how we know the concept and use it) and they didn't conceive of what we consider to be numbers. If you research Chaldean Numerology, you'll discover that their Sumerian bosses were working with concepts that (while definite foundations for our own system of numbers) are almost unrecognizable when placed next to what serves our own modern numerical requirements.

The realities that could be qualified and quantified existed, but numbers didn't until humans invented them to determine those qualifications and quantifications. Numbers simply didn't exist until human perception created the need for them to be developed.

Originally posted by reficul
reply to post by NorEaster

 

fance answer eh!

no seriously,i enjoyed your reply.very insightful.
but one could argue that ever sinse the big bang,numbers existed.we discovered them.
asronamers now can measre the size of our sun. 10,000 years ago we couldnt.
just because it took us this long to have learned this,it doesnt mean the measurements werent there!

Standing next to sumone at the urinal, dew you need mathematics or numbers to tell who's got the bigger wanker? Measuring the size of the sun can be done by comparing, and one can easily say it is bigger than the earth but smaller than the galaxy it resides within, without using mathematics or numbers.

As to the Big Bang, that never happened and mathematics/numbers have been around longer than a centillion^centillion^centillion earth years.

Ribbit

reply to post by NorEaster


ok, you win this round! but theres always round 2!
it will probably be a whoe different topic! ha ha ha

Originally posted by Agarta

Originally posted by reficul
reply to post by NorEaster

 

fance answer eh!

no seriously,i enjoyed your reply.very insightful.
but one could argue that ever sinse the big bang,numbers existed.we discovered them.
asronamers now can measre the size of our sun. 10,000 years ago we couldnt.
just because it took us this long to have learned this,it doesnt mean the measurements werent there!

Dimensions may have existed from the beginning but math is a descriptive for a logical minds understanding.

Math defines the physical, whether real or imaginary, and Numbers give finite definition.

Ribbit

reply to post by ButtUglyToad


They are the same thing.

1 = yes. 0 = no.

1 = true. 0 = false.

Originally posted by XcytaBill
Logic as in I have no apples and I'm hungry and weak and my neighbor has a lot and he's strong so logic dictates that I wait till he's asleep and I sneek up and bash his skull and take all the apples. See no numbers just logic

But no apples and a lot of apples, is mathematical, thus, although kNot necessarily purely defined by specific numbers, an equation is involved, thus, mathematics is involved.

Logic is Mathematical and Mathematics is Logical.

Everything is Relative to Source and Source is Relative to Everything.

Ribbit

Ps: eYe thought eYe'd add that Logic/Math is Mathematical/Logical when proper Logic is applied. eYe've seen sum dumb Logic/Math on here and in the werld.

Originally posted by reficul
reply to post by NorEaster

 

ok, you win this round!

but theres always round 2!

it will probably be a whoe different topic! ha ha ha

I'm pretty much a one-trick pony, so you're probably right about our next round.

It's time to let the toad out of the bag.

What eYe did was is eYe intentionally screwed up the question, in that Logics is Mathematical, they are one in the same, it's Numbers that aren't.

Logic/Mathematics is to the Chicken what Numbers are to the Egg.

Which came first? Logic/Mathematics with a pre-fertilized Egg within it, known as Numbers, which it laid, then the Egg hatched into Numbers, which then Numbers fornicated with Logic/Mathematics to further create more Logic/Mathematics! The same answer is true for the Chicken and Egg question.

Everything is Logic!

Everything is Mathematical!

Logic is Mathematical and Mathematics is Logical.

Everything is Relative to Source and Source is Relative to Everything.

"God/Source is Everything: Time is God/Source in Motion; Thought is Time in Motion; Logic is Thought in Motion; Love is Logic in Motion; Life is Love in Motion; Math is Life/Numbers in Motion. Rinse & Repeat." - Old Toad Proverb

Ribbit

Whatever is driving this existance is intelligent. Logic and mathematics/numbers are the human way of trying to make sense out of it. The universe is already complete and the humans measure it, label it and name it.
Logic and mathematics/numbers do nothing for the universe, animals do not need logic or math to be.
You do not need logic/math/numbers to be.
You are.

Man came before logic/math/numbers. Before man everything made perfect sense. It is only man that is confused.