Revelation prophecy; the futility of date-setting

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Anyway, we don't have long to wait before we discover if this calculation, too, has fallen by the wayside.

Fair. Accurate. Correct.

God Bless,

reply to post by Starchild23

If you were constantly in imminent danger of imprisonment and/or death, which is what "tribulation" implies, boredom would not be your prime concern

reply to post by DISRAELI


Another excellent thread, thanks DISRAELI!!

So i'm watching this series by Walter Veith, who really has a good handle on this subject.

He showed how the "sevens" are actually about the world from Daniel to us. IE we're in the last of the last. It's not necessarily 7 equal periods, but 7 distinct periods for God's people. This 7 related to the 7 angels, 7 trumpets and 7 vials. Not sequentially, but each showing a different aspect of the same periods. God's perfection though the ages.

Now the timing started from Daniel, 490 (470?) years went until 34AD, with the stoning of Stephen, and the end of The Lord's covenant with Isreal. From then on the message went out to all the world, the gentiles. But that's also the time of the prophetic 1260 days, which are 1260 years, which covers a fair part of the RC church's reign, which we fondly remember as the Dark Ages. And the christians and everyone else were trodden underfoot, anyone in fact who did not bow to the pope.

I can't recall all the details, but i've only seen the vids once, next time i'll do study notes. Well worth a look though

Peace

reply to post by harryhaller

Thank you for those comments.
The matching of the 1260 prophetic days with years is another calculation that I find dubious.
According to the Victorian Rev. Cumming, it was supposed to end in 1848. I think people are now getting a little desperate looking for suitable starting points. The last one I heard about was very trivial.
To me , the "1260 days" of Revelation are describing the period of the Great Tribulation which continues until Christ returns. This would necessarily be in the future, so I'm not sold on any theory that places them in the past.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by harryhaller

 

Thank you for those comments.
The matching of the 1260 prophetic days with years is another calculation that I find dubious.
According to the Victorian Rev. Cumming, it was supposed to end in 1848. I think people are now getting a little desperate looking for suitable starting points. The last one I heard about was very trivial.
To me , the "1260 days" of Revelation are describing the period of the Great Tribulation which continues until Christ returns. This would necessarily be in the future, so I'm not sold on any theory that places them in the past.

Num_14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Eze_4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Used with reference to prophetic days, the same standards would apply to revelation. It is biblical at least

The version i understand takes the date to 1844, of course some idiot assumed that that date was the end, of course he was wrong, but it was his interpretation that was flawed, not his understanding of numbering from scripture. The Messiah was predicted in Daniel the same way, from the night Babylon fell, to the birth of the Messiah. Those were the 490 years that were "cut off" for the Israelites. It included Jesus time, and ended 3,5 years after Christ ascended ... roughly the time that ***** [EDIT: Stephen was stoned, not Peter] was stoned. The rejection of Jesus followers was the catalyst that spurred the spread of the Word to the gentiles. Thus ending the 490 years covenant between God and Israel.

But here's the thing, we're all still under God's time, and the devil knows the time is short. I've changed my thinking on "rapture theology" ... and i honestly believe John has been intentionally misinterpreted, by those who do such things. Remember, even our thinking on time has been altered, the only remnant being the 7 day week.

Originally posted by harryhaller
The Messiah was predicted in Daniel the same way, from the night Babylon fell, to the birth of the Messiah. Those were the 490 years that were "cut off" for the Israelites. It included Jesus time, and ended 3,5 years after Christ ascended ...

Hmm. What date have you got for the fall of Babylon?
My trusty copy of the Cambridge Ancient History says 539 B.C., for the conquest by Cyrus.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Sorry i don't have it offhand, i'll have to go dig. It was about then for sure. The other thing of course was Jesus being born bc messes with my maths

reply to post by harryhaller

If there isn't a convenient starting-point, we may have to consider the possibility that "7x7x10" is also meant more symbolically than literally.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Indeed, could well be. Daniel prophesied the birth of the Messiah, this was necessary to prove to the Jewish clergy of the time. It is through prophecy that God's will is revealed to His people, and as such, it cannot really be left to interpretation, it must have confirmations in other parts of scripture to concur.

Originally posted by MarkScheppy
Arrive ten minutes after a burglar breaks, that is some fast promptness. Most cops don't put forth too much trouble or much of an effort.

Speed of response had to be assumed to make the analogy work properly.
I think we're entitled to expect God to be more reliable than a human policeman.

reply to post by DISRAELI


So you want to date set the Apocalypse? I can do that. But I have to tell a story. It's the story of why Christianity was necessary in the first place. And the terrible failure of the Jews.

As the story goes John the Baptist challenged Herod on the matter of marrying his brother's wife. (Matthew 14) And Herod had him put to death. But that caused a major problem. He wasn't supposed to die when he did. Why? Because according to Jesus Christ he was supposed to have been Elijah the prophet. And Elijah had jobs to do. Which didn't get accomplished. Per the book of Malachi.

Malachi 3
11 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

The job of messiah in the 1st century wasn't a one man job. It was supposed to have been a 3 man job. When Jesus Christ drove out the moneychangers all 3 were supposed to have been present.

The Jews of the day botched it. So what happened?

Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

They were nailed with a curse. And it's still running. And the curse is the reason for Christianity to exist. Why? Essentially Judaism has an out of order sign on it. They needed to work around the problem. So here is how to get the details on the curse.

First off read up on Leviticus 26 and the agreement made between the Israelites under Moses and their God. The benefits for adhering to the law given to Moses. And the punishments assigned if they don't follow the rules.

Then you could read Ezekiel 4 through 8 to look at the declaration of the previous curses on Israel.

And then read the book of Hosea for the prediction of the curse that was to come.

but then it all boils down to these verses out of Hosea 6.

1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

It's the days. They are in the presence of God. And if you read Psalms 90-4 and/or 2nd Peter 3-8 those days are a thousand years long.

This curse they were slapped with is 2000 years long. Followed by a third day of a 1000 years. What is the 3rd day? The day of Jezreel. As spoken about in Hosea 1. So per the prophecy the apocalypse should be over with by the end of the 2000th year. Being John the Baptist died in 25-28 AD approximately the start of the day of Jezreel should be by 2028.

Something to think about.

Originally posted by ntech

So you want to date set the Apocalypse?

Err, no. The gist of the OP was that date-setting was a futile exercise, without useful result.

I pointed to the words of Jesus, that God would keep this information to himself. If he supplied enough information that people would be able to calculate the date, he woudn't be keeping it to himself any more.

I queried the assumption that God works with exact time-intervals, and I've offered reasons for thinking that the numbers mentioned in some of the references are symbolic ones.

I think some of the other assumptions made in calculations can be dubious. Your link between the Apocalypse and the curse on the Jews is a little tenuous, and even on your own assumptions, it is not at all clear that the end would come at the beginning of the third day. In fact on your theory it could be argued that the "third day", the "day of Jezreel", ie the day of judgement, would last for another thousand years, and therefore we could not expect the apocalyptic events to come to an end before the year 3028.

Well if you look at the 1000 year reign of the saints in Revelation and the day of Jezreel prediction in Hosea you can draw only one conclusion. It's the same event. Different names. A thousand years of peace following a time of strife and trouble.

Lets also toss another prophecy into the mix. Matthew 24 and the fig tree prophecy. If end time events are fig leaves on the tree then you have to look at the rebirth of Israel in 1948 very carefully. For the creation of a nation of Israel was an event predicted in a number of prophesies. And that would mean the nation of Israel is a fig leaf.
And the "generation" has been running since at least 1948.

Now Psalms 90-10 defines a lifetime as lasting 70 to 80 years. Add 80 years to 1948 and you get 2028. Approximately when the 2000 years of the curse of Malachi ends.

So what do we have here? A proof with a corollary. The Apocalypse will end in the 2020s.

Reading through the thread again i had a thought, that seems to make sense.

We assume that ALL of Revelation is still to come, whereas by my new understanding it's MOSTLY already happened. It was the letter to the churches giving them an insight into the years ahead. Resonating very strongly with Daniel and the statue, which is still valid today, we're in the "toes" of iron and clay.

The only thing i am sure is in the future still, is the man of sin being revealed. That's the pope, everyone will see him as he really is. Scary thought that. There's also the mark, but read closely what is said about God's mark for his people, where is the mark and what is it?.

Revelation refers to several periods of time, the 6th, 7th and 8th Day of
God.

We are near to the end of the 6th Day right now.

All the supposed Rapture verses refer to the Final Judgment less one,
the one about being taken and another person being left is about death.

Matthew 24:40
Then two shall be in the field: one shall be taken, and one shall be left.

reply to post by ntech

I'm still not convinced that God arranges history in precise time intervals of this kind.
One reason is that there is no clear evidence, no clear declaration, that he intends to do so.
Another is that if he made these calculations, and provided enough evidence for humans to follow them, he would be contradicting the definite statement of Jesus that God keeps this kind of information to himself.

reply to post by harryhaller

Nearly everything that happens in Revelation is either the persecution of the church or God's response to the persecution of the church (this being the subject of the book). So when we say that the man of sin, the persecutor, hasn't been revealed yet, that amounts to most of the book which is still to come.
As in the case of an Agatha Christie novel; until the murder has taken place, and the process of detecting the murderer has been set in motion, the book hasn't really got under way.

In any case, the events of ch6, the "Four Horsemen" episode, are so devastating to the world that I can't match them against anything that has happened so far. I think we're still waiting for them. If we're still waiting for ch6, we're also waiting for the events which follow ch6.

reply to post by colbe

You don't say why you think we are living in the "sixth day". If it comes from the "sixth king now is" line in Revelation ch17, you presumably agree with me that the persecuting "eighth" ruler is still to come.

Also you don't explain the assumption that we are living near the end of that day. It can't be based on 6000 years after the traditional date of Creation, because that would have ended decades ago- the Jehovah's Witnesses were using it when I was a student.

The Rapture is not part of my teaching, so I concur with your rejection of it.

UPDATE;

The recent thread by Jcrash sets up a very elaborate "Revelation 2012 timeline".
I'm inclined to think that this is a deliberate parody, and a more oblique way of making the same criticism that I'm making.
Have a look and decide for yourselves;
2012 timeline thread

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by colbe

 

You don't say why you think we are living in the "sixth day". If it comes from the "sixth king now is" line in Revelation ch17, you presumably agree with me that the persecuting "eighth" ruler is still to come.

Also you don't explain the assumption that we are living near the end of that day.. It can't be based on 6000 years after the traditional date of Creation, because that would have ended decades ago- the Jehovah's Witnesses were using it when I was a student.

The Rapture is not part of my teaching, so I concur with your rejection of it.

DISRAELI,

I take it we are near to the end of the 6th Day from prophecy. Prophecy
makes God's plan explicit. God is going to remove evil from the world
which it's been mainly during this 6th Day period. He is going to make things new for the 7th Day, the Millennium.

The Great Tribulation is close and the Great Warning spoken of in
Revelation 6:12-17. Look at this excerpt from a current message
God the Father says where we are...

www.thewarningsecondcoming.com...

_ _ _

God the Father: You are either for Me or against Me. The choice is yours


Tuesday, February 21st, 2012 @ 12:30 am


I am God the Father, Creator of all things. I am speaking with you tonight in the name of the Holy Trinity.

My daughter the time has come for the first of the seals to be broken and how this saddens Me....

_ _ _

Revelation 6:1-3

[1] And I saw that the Lamb had opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures, as it were the voice of thunder, saying: Come, and see. [2] And I saw: and behold a white horse, and he that sat on him had a bow, and there was a crown given him, and he went forth conquering that he might conquer. [3] And when he had opened the second seal,