America Bashing is getting a bit out of hand.....

First let me get this said. My own thread had this come over it this evening. It's what prompted the timing of my writing this thread. It really isn't what caused me to feel the need. That has been building for awhile. The problem is far from a new one this evening.

Now I'm not talking about the threads that are written specifically about things that Americans may find less than agreeable. Anyone who would whine about that would be someone I'd offer a So Sorry violin to and a place to play it for awhile.

What I am talking about is the building trend toward every thread that gives an opening, even a tiny one, attracting 1 and often several people to throw in a bucket full of opinion about just how bad, corrupt or outright Evil the United States is and...in a few just today, how it would seem there is no nation worse. Bar none. Perhaps EVER..to read SOME people talking.

My thread wasn't the first where the U.S. wasn't even the direct topic, but a related issue to the topic of the thread. This is what my rant is about. If someone doesn't see this problem..I'm happy for you. I have a sneaking suspicion I'm not the only one to have this feeling recently though.

Now obviously I'm American. I'm a proud American. I strongly dislike some pretty large aspects my government and do all that I can as a citizen, within the system, to change it. That is my right as a citizen. Everyone can do different things at different levels..and I do about the limit of what I can.

- The U.S. has problems. No question.

- The U.S. has corruption. No question.

- I'll even go so far as to say that the U.S. is creating as many problems around the world as it's solving. At least in the last 10 years or so. Mixed messages....screw ups....a blown image for security of any diplomatic communications, with Wikileaks...and a decade of fairly ugly warfare in a VERY ugly war all the way around has made for a world class set of headaches, No Question.

However, is it necessary to drop the reminders and/or outright hate for the United States into every space where a Mod isn't likely to outright T&C the post?

Anyone can make a thread to vent or to highlight and make the case for why and how America is bad. If it's well received, great! There isn't really a lot of need to dump into everyone elses thread too. If it isn't taken well? Well, that would be called a harsh form of peer review..and I think we've all learned that way a few times if we've been here and been active much. Likewise, but for a different reason, dumping everywhere else is rude...and then some.

ATS is not all about America. I DO get that. I'll also say in all fairness that the almost relentless onslaught of Anti-(any nation) posting ought to eventually start getting people down right annoyed as well. It isn't JUST because I'm American, this really is getting a little out of hand lately. Elenin brought extremes...and a small % of Ron Paul supporters have also been just a bit too enthusiastic for everyone else's good..and both have been the subject of posts similar to mine here.

Now no one is harder against this war than I am. I have little doubt that Iran will go where no nation has gone before....at least since Hitler sent a few undercover agents onto East Coast beaches to get caught before they could raise cain across the land. I'd love to see such passion go in a general and all around Anti-War sentiment, if that is what it's about for timing and vehemence.

I'd just ask two things...and understand I'm asking the ether and will probably get as much in return, but here goes...

1.) Slow down a pinch with bashing Americans over the head with the fact that America has problems. We know that.

2.) Please remember, the majority of Americans aren't much more in favor of what is happening, when aware of it, than anyone else is. American politicians and American citizens are two different things...and radically so in most cases.

I'm a simple kind of Rabbit with simple ideas. Simply showing a bit of kindness...or just cooperation for the common good of us all, isn't a toughie. We sure can't work toward better futures if we're at each others throats non-stop.

All i have to say is ---- " TRUTH HURTS".

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Its not Americas fault that it was stolen by the New World Order for nefarious purposes, Nor is it the American peoples fault.

The same circumstance is going on in my country too... This... Corruption you speak of is global.

We are all human and no one race of people are specifically evil or worthy of any preconceived negative emotions.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Unfortunately Sir, if you set yourself up as the World's policeman, then break the laws that you, yourself wish to impose on others, you cannot be surprised when somebody starts taking pot shots at you.

America has and frequently does, dictate to Nation States what they may or may not do; very much like an overgrown school yard bully armed with a very big stick and then goes screaming to the Security Council at the UN when said Nation State stands up to you and punches you on the nose.

An ongoing case in hand, was the illegal war fought in Iraq over non-existant weapons of mass destruction and its aftermath. That America decided what weapons of mass destruction actually were is somewhat hypocritical, even more so when you consider that only America has used a weapon of mass destruction - twice!

But what really gets up my nose as a Brit, is the way America portrays herself as the saviour of the world in two world wars, when nothing is further from the truth. I guess most Americans believe all the Hollywood crap that is dished out on their cinema screens or cable TV.

I think you can partly blame the MSM....

Here in NZ most of our foreign news is of American origin CNN FOX etc. They tend to wave the "red white and blue" on a regular basis which has an effect of unintentionally and subliminally giving the rest of us the feeling that we are in some way inferior.

From what Ive seen and read on many forums ,a lot of Americans on these forums often praise their USA as
the "greatest nation on earth" (modesty does not become them)..and thereby enforcing the feeling of inferiority of others who then become verbally defensive...

The USA is the worlds self proclaimed and often uninvited/unwanted "Police Force", this more than others riles a lot of other countries, and more importantly invites a possibly justified and to be expected barrage of criticism towards the USA..just as we all criticise our own over-zealous police forces from time to time..

The MSMs failure to criticise or cover the internal problems of the the USA while focusing on other countries problems as the root of the USA problems..(eg if we could only get rid of that or this dictator/regime etc we could all sleep better)..

The insertion of "The American Way" type popular culture (eg McDs,BK,Music,clothing etc) is displacing our own culture/fashion/etc to the extent that even our gangs are modeled on gangs from the US (crypts etc).

Even as an ally, countries are concerned that we/they will be the next target the US will conquer for whatever reason they feel like at the time.

There is a perception of a "do as we say, not do as we do" mentality coming from the US gov.

"With Ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility"...The US seems to ignore/pay no heed this philosophy and it hasnt been lost on us.

Unfortunately you guys here become the target because..

1. You are an easy and available target and we have no medium to directly criticise/influence your government or your PTB (not that they would listen anyway)

2. We are so # scared of what the US is capable of outside their own country in the name of "Freedom,Democracy.NWO or whatever catchphrase suits, that we become defensive and lash out at the nearest American target. ie you.

So, try not to take it personally and be aware that it is mostly your government that we refer to whenever "Americans" are mentioned.

(BTW. you are quite welcome to throw a couple of sheep jokes our way if you like)

reply to post by luxbaclos1


You know it's funny that as a Brit, you slam supposed U.S. imperialism, when your country is history's leading offender of that category. Great Britian has had it's nose in everyone's business for centuries wheras the U.S. only recently.

Honestly though, I agree with wrabbit.

It is too much the amount of U.S. hatred here. The NWO is a global enterprise. Britain is much more Orwellian than the U.S. by far.

To the point though....the U.S has simply set the bar in nearly everything. It is human nature to root against the big dog. Just imagine if the U.S. and other western nations such as Canada, U.K., did not try to exert some form of influence around the world. Where would the rest of the world be if the technology developed by these countries were not shared with developing countries. What if the U.S. remained completely isolationist??

Would Africa have running water? Most of the world would still be in the dark ages. I am NOT kidding here. Seriously think about it.

I don't know the answers but the U.S. has truly been one of the greatest nations to EVER exist. I can only think of a handful of countries other than my own (Canada), that I would ever want to live and the U.S. is tops on that list.

I could care less at who's expense blah blah, because EVERY nation with any cultural influence did so at another's expense at some point and no other country can take any moral high ground over another.

I am proud to have America as a neighbour.

Being the best breeds contempt among the lesser thans. It's the dark side of human nature.

reply to post by luxbaclos1

Well so far, I would say the replies to the thread have pretty well gone to prove my point and reason to have an issue. It certainly hasn't done the opposite. Interesting how that plays out.

Now you're talking about me as if I'm Sammy the Eagle himself wearing the Red, White and Blue top hat while I sit here and type. I mean really.. You're so direct and personal about the use of 'you' it's striking in a way it usually wouldn't be.

Since it's personalized to some degree, I'd note the irony of that given the location your mini- shows. Of all the nations in the world, I'd expect England to be the last to look upon Americans as somehow lesser for what is going on right now. After all, British troops controlled Southern Iraq by formal agreement and division of power by way of the Basra sector and British troops are willingly assuming their own areas of responsibility in Afghanistan.

In point of fact, some of the top combat related records to come out of the war thus far are from Canadian and British troops.

How does that play where I and other Americans are somehow directly at fault for the actions of our Government but someone in England has a free pass to not only take no blame, but then take on the role of assigning it to others? Now that is some trick of logic and you definitely lost me in the turns it takes to get there.

In the grand scheme of things, America is just starting to learn the ropes and trial by error of Empire building. The British Empire has stood for many a Century before some colonists got the wild idea to be free.....from that very Empire. I'd never blame individual citizens anywhere in the UK for that though...unless they actually supported it.

Though I don't disagree with the theme of your post, I wanted to poke at a few things you stated

Originally posted by luxbaclos1
An ongoing case in hand, was the illegal war fought in Iraq over non-existant weapons of mass destruction and its aftermath.

As a Brit, its best not to mention this too loudly..given it was basically a brit/us "intelligence" that came up with this..fingers point both ways..but basically it was just the west in general ready to bomb them at any cost...one day we may figure out the true reason...but needless to say, your dude Blair was just as guilty as our Bush in the hype.

That America decided what weapons of mass destruction actually were is somewhat hypocritical, even more so when you consider that only America has used a weapon of mass destruction - twice!

Depends on what your describing as WMDs. Chemical weapons have been used before..iran V iraq, iraq V kurds,
If we want to go further back (pre-WW2) WMDs were used quite a lot..from the brits gassing in WW1, to purposefully spreading plagues.
WMDs have always been a common tactic in war...and really wasn't thought of as some sort of "bad" thing until nuclear clouds started appearing over Japan...which is when we started gaining a bit of wisdom...but ya, poisoning the well has been around since wars first started erupting.

But what really gets up my nose as a Brit, is the way America portrays herself as the saviour of the world in two world wars, when nothing is further from the truth. I guess most Americans believe all the Hollywood crap that is dished out on their cinema screens or cable TV.

WW1 I would agree with you. We were a token force that didn't really turn any tides of war. good for morale, but overall we were there to just give a showing more than anything
WW2 however..here is where I disagree. Had America not entered the war, the english would have been eventually overrun. Keep in mind, we didn't come over until they were basically breathing down your neck and lobbing bombs at you without hindrance. America joining the war turned the mindset of the UK from trying to just hold on, to actually going on the offensive and maybe even winning the war...or at least beat the snot out of the Germans long enough for them to give up their aggressive expansion.

In the end, it was the Russians that can be most credited with the hardest blow...and nothing they even directly did..scorched earth and a fatally bad call from the Reich that set the whole thing ablaze...but, had the states not come in during that time, the Russian scorched earth retreat wouldn't have hurt them as much...because they wouldn't have been fighting a 3 front war...it would have been just one front (Britian would have fallen by then).

I don't prop up America as the saviors of western Europe exclusively, however, you shouldn't diminish the rather huge contribution either.

reply to post by Lexx790

I appreciate the time you took in putting together a reply that outlines some logic and reason. There seems to be so much of the short rhetorical replies or plain sniping lately. It's interesting to read your thinking on it. Given how you present it...I'm hard pressed to disagree with the specifics.

From what Ive seen and read on many forums ,a lot of Americans on these forums often praise their USA as the "greatest nation on earth" (modesty does not become them)..and thereby enforcing the feeling of inferiority of others who then become verbally defensive...

I suppose I've been guilty of this myself a time or two...err..okay, maybe there was even a third time somewhere in there.

The insertion of "The American Way" type popular culture (eg McDs,BK,Music,clothing etc) is displacing our own culture/fashion/etc to the extent that even our gangs are modeled on gangs from the US (crypts etc).

This is something I've felt very awkward about as an American since I was old enough to understand the scope of the issue. Of course, it really hit home when it became possible to order the same Big Mac in Moscow and Beijing as one can get in Kansas City, Kansas. Not exactly the best side of the U.S.... No argument there.

Even as an ally, countries are concerned that we/they will be the next target the US will conquer for whatever reason they feel like at the time.

That is definitely one of those points where I would say that the majority of Americans would agree, once aware of the extent of the problem....and of course it's hard to miss if one watches news in even a passing way these days.

You're last two points are also interesting and thanks for the blunt honesty. That is why I figured some make it personal. Just the sheer fact we, as Americans, are here and available. Without putting to fine an edge there...and I can see you aren't necessarily saying you personally feel that way..but that reason strikes me as real shallow. Iran sure isn't my personal favorite right now, for example...but even the more aggressive Iranians who've become active here lately are people I give an open mind in listening to.

Now the 2nd point is downright enlightening..and I've never heard someone put it quite that bluntly and directly before. I can understand what you're saying because you came right out and said it. Why is it no one else can seem to without being vicious about it and STILL never saying anything in plain english? Oh well...

I have often wondered what it must be like to view America's actions from the perspective of being in a nation that can't offer a deterrent..and might "annoy" Washington in just the wrong way. You've given me something to think about on that.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression by using the word you in my response. I was not referring to you as an individual but rather 'you' as a country.

SaturnFX - the only reason America entered the war in Europe was because Herr Hitler idiotically declared war against the United States of America. This in response to the US declaration of war against Japan following their pre-emptive strike against Pearl Harbour. Japan was the third country to form the Axis Powers and was Germanys ally.

I honestly believe that had Hitler not declared war on America, your country would have stayed neutral in Europe but content to help supply the UK through lease-lend whilst GB & Commonwealth perhaps would have committed troops to the Far East because of our interests.

As for your assumption that Great Britain and her Commonwealth would have been defeated, No Sir, and again NO! We were on the offensive both in Europe and the Mediterranean and the Near Middle East.

I site, for example, the near destruction of Rommel's vaunted Afrika Korps during the second Battle of
El-alamein. There were Free French, Austrailians, New Zealanders, Greeks, South Africans and of course British forces, but it was all but over by 1942 when American forces started combat operations,

We formed army & marine Commandos, the Special Air Service and a great many other special forces who took the fight to the enemy across all fronts. (We must have been fairly good at this because you guys took quite a few of our ideas, liked what you saw and adapted them for your own use.)

Contrary to Hollywood myth, we Brits defeated the mighty Luftwaffe in 1940 during 5 months in what became known as The Battle of Britain; we also captured an Enigma machine and our code-breakers at Bletchly Park broke all German and Japanese codes.

Had we have been defeated in the air, I agree, Germany could have eventually invaded but would we have been defeated? I very much doubt it! Germany may have held the southern coast or more probably the south-east coast, but she would never have enough troops to defeat us in a decisive battle.

Originally posted by Mandrakerealmz
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Its not Americas fault that it was stolen by the New World Order for nefarious purposes, Nor is it the American peoples fault.

The same circumstance is going on in my country too... This... Corruption you speak of is global.

We are all human and no one race of people are specifically evil or worthy of any preconceived negative emotions.

edit on 18-2-2012 by Mandrakerealmz because: (no reason given)

You are right the whole world is screwed up and America is being used to increase control for the people at the top of the power pyramid from the people at the bottom. The trouble I have with Americans is that many of you think it is just a big bandaid that is needed and then everything will be perfect and want to start the process over again. You say that it is not free capitalism that is being used now but it is. Monopoly and Oligopol and parasitic the resources to the top is what capitalism is about and have always been. The people who do not exploit the system are just people with morals that do not want the play the game (maybe because they have figured out that they have a soul). Competition brings out the worst in everybody and in the end capitalism is supposed to have one single winner with everybody else being slave to the winner. The american Dream is and have always only been a Dream. Well keep on dreaming if you want to but please can you give ous a country where your stupid corperations and banks and armies are not allowed and where we can live without the power pyramid in a democracy that is by the people for the people in a flat egoless system. Namaste

Originally posted by luxbaclos1
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Unfortunately Sir, if you set yourself up as the World's policeman, then break the laws that you, yourself wish to impose on others, you cannot be surprised when somebody starts taking pot shots at you.

America has and frequently does, dictate to Nation States what they may or may not do; very much like an overgrown school yard bully armed with a very big stick and then goes screaming to the Security Council at the UN when said Nation State stands up to you and punches you on the nose.

An ongoing case in hand, was the illegal war fought in Iraq over non-existant weapons of mass destruction and its aftermath. That America decided what weapons of mass destruction actually were is somewhat hypocritical, even more so when you consider that only America has used a weapon of mass destruction - twice!

But what really gets up my nose as a Brit, is the way America portrays herself as the saviour of the world in two world wars, when nothing is further from the truth. I guess most Americans believe all the Hollywood crap that is dished out on their cinema screens or cable TV.

More like the mercenary The great Britain had to pay to get help in the 2nd world war. US got out on top from that conflict with a lot of money from you and the colonies. The funny thing is that they went to fight the nazi (facists) in Europe and now they are becoming them more and more with every year. Maybe it will be the same in the end as if the nazis had won the 2nd world war. The only difference wil probably be that we will be talking english instead of German. One world goverment under facist rule with policestate action where you do as your told by the power elite above you. Scary. The reason I am using procative words is not to hurt americans, It is to wake you up to how far it has already gone.

Originally posted by Goldcurrent
reply to post by luxbaclos1

 

You know it's funny that as a Brit, you slam supposed U.S. imperialism, when your country is history's leading offender of that category. Great Britian has had it's nose in everyone's business for centuries wheras the U.S. only recently.

Honestly though, I agree with wrabbit.

It is too much the amount of U.S. hatred here. The NWO is a global enterprise. Britain is much more Orwellian than the U.S. by far.

To the point though....the U.S has simply set the bar in nearly everything. It is human nature to root against the big dog. Just imagine if the U.S. and other western nations such as Canada, U.K., did not try to exert some form of influence around the world. Where would the rest of the world be if the technology developed by these countries were not shared with developing countries. What if the U.S. remained completely isolationist??

Would Africa have running water? Most of the world would still be in the dark ages. I am NOT kidding here. Seriously think about it.

I don't know the answers but the U.S. has truly been one of the greatest nations to EVER exist. I can only think of a handful of countries other than my own (Canada), that I would ever want to live and the U.S. is tops on that list.

I could care less at who's expense blah blah, because EVERY nation with any cultural influence did so at another's expense at some point and no other country can take any moral high ground over another.

I am proud to have America as a neighbour.

Being the best breeds contempt among the lesser thans. It's the dark side of human nature.

If Us was total isolationist and no corperations at all and no trade. Well Cuba might have been able to trade around the world and might even have gotten socialy healthier and not have to deal with foreign people trying to ruin the country since percieved communism is never allowed to work. I do not say cuba is a real communist state. It still have the power pyramid and if you do not have freedom of speech then system is not worth anything. Amiga would have sold more computers and would probably be the computer in everyones office/home. Ericsson/samsung would have been the phone developers where Ericsson would be the provider of switches. No xbox but probably sony playstation and nintendo. Would we have internet? Do not persume that just because US would not make the advances would not mean we would not have another technology center that would have made them. Im sorry to tell you but there are a lot of people outside the United States that are smart. The corperations choose US to be the success story by investing the money there. Now they have chossen that China should be the success story and US should be on the lossing side. It is the normal duality view. China against US and the coperations will go where they get the best deal.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Unfortunately,the actions of our governments tend to become a reflection of us,if we could see beyond that and realise that we are truly in this together,globally,as victims of circumstance,I'm sure that we could accomplish much in changing the current status quo.
The US isn't "evil" current US government policy that favours the very rich at the expense of the vast majority of US citizens is evil.this could apply to any nation in the Western world.
By the same token Iran or Israel aren't evil,their leaders desire to engender a state of perpetual confrontation is.

.....when the love of Man waxes cold........... nuff said

reply to post by apushforenlightment


Im not American but I understand you frustration. Humanity doesn't need capitalism or commercialism or the free market... Anyone who says otherwise is way too caught up in the currently spoken paradigms of thought.

Life is the way it is because of the "New World Order" infestation our world has been subjected too... To see this is to see the truth. Follow the money and it always leads back to the Rothschild central banking system... And their many affiliates.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

People didn't defend that Nazi's in WW2 when most people hated on them. Or Russians during the Cold War, or the Vietcong during Vietnam, or Terrorists during the last decade.

So now that the US finds itself in the crosshairs of the rest of the world, for being imperials, war mongering and freedom removing oligarchs, they jump in the air and cry foul.

I'm sorry America, the truth hurts and you aren't number 1 anymore. It's to take your licks like everybody else whose been under your boot and come to terms with who you are, and what you have become.

The only way to get people to stop being mean to you, is to stop being mean to others. You are judged by the actions of your government on the world stage, regardless of whether or not that reflects the wants and opinions or actions of the populace at large.

That's just the way it is.

~Tenth

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

To me,The reason that Nazi Germany wasn't universally defended during world war 2 was that the vast majority of Germans supported the NSDAP,although you wouldn't have thought so with the amount of "anti nazis" who crawled out of the woodwork once it was all over!
The same cannot be said of the present day US,where only a minority support the actions of the government.You may say that they get the government they deserve,after all they vote for them,but I think that most of us who live outwith the US can see that a"democratically" elected government in the US is merely an illusion much like it is here in the UK at present,I'm quite sure that those who voted for Obama didn't realise that the man can't open his mouth without lying,so I say cut the US some slack,we're all in this together.

I speak out against the corrupt bastards of the world and their murderous policies without regard to what country they're from ...
disgusted with the primitives slaughtering each other and profiting from misery and death ..

sad part is the american people to apathetic to do what they should have done long ago and risen up to throw the corrupt bastards out and reclaim their country ...

reply to post by nake13

Your sentiments are ones I can agree with entirely. Not only the body of your message but the final point in particular. We are all in this together, as you note there. If more folks would look at the world with that idea of cooperation, perhaps we could make progress toward getting out of this together, too.