Jehovah Revealed

reply to post by CaptainNemo


But when the verse n Isaiah was written the word Lucifer was not used, and the greek word from which lucifer was interpretted wasn't originally used either; a hebrew word was used:

The original Hebrew text of this verse was הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), meaning "Helel son of Shahar." Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar. Helel was the god of the morning star and his father was Shahar, god of the dawn. Some translations of Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard Version translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word Ben as son and the Hebrew word Shahar as "of the morning." Others translate it as "Lucifer, son of the morning" 21st Century King James.

To me that just goes to show how misconstrued translations and interpretations can get.
They say the devil is in the details
I somewhat agree with the OP. Through the years I come to feel that if there was a way for the christian devil to deceive the masses, it would be through the same book they cling to. And actually, the devil doesn't need to exist; man, with all his pre-suppositions is quite capable in screwing himself over through personal agenda's. No need for invisible beings who have been gone from the world since their apparent part in the play was complete... and have never returned.

reply to post by Jimjolnir


I was using my KJV, I was using the name Lucifer to simplify things. You'd agree that they are the same being? I think it's just the negative connotation with the name Lucifer...

Lucifer: Translation of the Latin word meaning light bearer. The passage in the King James reads: "How tho art fallen from heaven O' Lucifer, son of the morning." Most people read this and fail to continue down to verse 16, where it is explicitly stated that Lucifer is a man. ie the King of Babylon."Is this the man that made the Earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms." The same word is used in Revelation and is attributed to Jesus.

reply to post by anarky1965

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:7)

Morning stars is plural. Is it the same base word as in the other morning star references??

reply to post by rebellender

If someone has not mentioned it watch this guys videos it makes much more sense to me.

www.youtube.com...

Well, I know that I for one don't believe your theory. Why? Because I don't believe in a physical Lucifer.

Lucifer is nothing but temptation and departure from love. There is no real demon.

You're welcome to your own opinions, but this is what I believe.

Originally posted by CaptainNemo

Originally posted by rebellender

think Lucifer causing 1/3 of the angels to fall is an end-time prediction and nothing that's already happened. He desires to exalt his throne above the stars of god, but I've seen nothing to indicate that this has already happened.

reply to post by Magnificient

 

No sorry hate to say it but it was written in The Revelation but was referred to as an earlier event pre-modern man.
The Book of Urantia goes into detail about it but Urantia has been Hoaxed. I suspect that the Fall is detailed by the Mormon Faith

there were a couple of events where human went to visit the creator. The creator was finding more and more favor with humans. Lucifer was getting more and more jealous of man. He finally got pissed and laid down an ultimatum. Creator said Fine you want to be god go to earth and be god. Not in these words though obviously. I speak English, I don't know what they speak

edit on 16-2-2012 by rebellender because: (no reason given)

In the Old Testament, the creator of man is the God of Israel or YHWH (Yahweh). Yahweh enters into a covenant with Moses and the people of Isreal as he had previously did with Abraham. The people must abide by the sociopolitical moral rules given unto them by the creator and offer up sacrifices to him in exchange for protection. You are incorrect in your account, Lucifer or Ba'al (as he was called back then) was loved by man.! He was worshiped before his fall, and eventually more than Yahweh. This greatly angered Yahweh but Lucifer was not to blame, it was the isrealiite tribes that praised Lucifer, and eventually Lucifer let the praise get to his head and thought he should be Yahweh...To give an ultimatum would mean that the two were equal but this is obviously not true. Did you know in the Old Testament it depicts a pantheon or council of Gods, with Yahweh as creator and and king of those gods? They're called bene 'elyon or sons of the Most High (Yahweh)

See Kings 22:19
Psalm 82
Psalm 124

concordances.org...

Let's all pretend like we don't know the story of Lucifer, and that we're reading the scriptures for the first time. We are to read it literally as is, applying interpretation only when it is absolutely necessary. Let's not name names until names are given. That's the best way to maintain objectivity.

The first reference of a fall of a divine being is within Isiah 14:12-15:
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Sheol or שְׁאוֹל: means underworld and the place where all the dead go is the word most innacurately translated to hell.THere is no such thing as fiery eternal damnation

Lucifer is said to be cast down to Sheol or the underworld. All sons of ADAM or mortal men must go to Sheol when they die, but seeing as Lucifer was a divine being at the time of his fall he simply was stripped of his immortality and what is being said is he will eventually suffer the same fate as sons of ADAM or death.

Lucifer means shining one

Lucifer - Margin, 'Day-star' (הילל hēylēl, from הלל hâlal, "to shine")

Psalm 82:6 further illustrates that Lucifer was stripped of his "godly" title and subsequently akined to man

"I have said, you are gods and all of you the
sons of the most High (bene 'elyon)
But you shall die like Adam, and fall like one of the Shining Ones


I'm not making any of this up, try for yourselves, see what's really there.
interlinearbible.org...

Oh and wasn't Joseph Mormon a theist and a 33rd degree freemason?
If you were to study any parallel mythologies, study Ugaritic mythology

thank you for posting this captain nemo so i didnt' have to give the lesson myself = )

reply to post by The GUT


The passage to which you refer, uses two Strong's words: "When the morning (#1242, בֹּקֶר, boqer) stars (#3556, כּוֹכָב, kowkab)...and occurs in three places (Job 38:7, Neh. 4:21, and Amo 5:8)

The passage in Isa 14:12 "Lucifer" הֵילֵל (#1966, הֵילֵל, heylel) occurs one time.

They are different words. Here are two links to an online Strong's Concordance to aid in researching this.

www.blueletterbible.org...
and
www.blueletterbible.org...

It is only my opinion that Modern Man struggled after THE GODS (annunaki) left. Men look up in the direction they blasted off in and cried "Come Back" Is this the origin of prayer?

Climate changed and Man cried "Come Back"

From the Ancient text of Sumeria was born a religion that men have killed each other over. Look at this simple ATS thread. If we were all in one room there would be Violence. Agreed?


Does this one point I make here NOT prove that Mankind is not on the RIGHTEOUS TRACK (right track)

Because our BELIEFS are the strongest does that make them Right. Is it by volume that This or That is right or wrong? I say No

All religion has to have a basis of Wrong if it is a measure that any one is Right.

The simple approach to a Hoax can give the conclusion that No Religion can therefore be Right.

It is my opinion that ManKind has been fooled all through that ages, I have no Idea why or to what avail.

reply to post by anarky1965


that is what irritates me most - when people do not understand the original text and accept the mistranslations as the truth/fact. thank u for showing that clarification.

there is no hell in the original texts. just as it's been said earlier that lucifer IS NOT "satan" as there is no such thing as a evil devil in the original texts. yet the ones who point this out are told that we are the ones who are wrong since it's not the popular belief. unless you read the original texts for yourself, you won't know the original meaning. not to mention this whole story is an amalgamation of many different stories from other gospels not in the christian bible. funny how they don't recognize those books as part of their bible but they choose to take stories from them to go along with their story and then people think it's part of the bible. so crazy.

reply to post by rebellender


Your interpretation of biblical scriptures is greatly flawed. Yahweh being a "jealous god" comes from his dislike of idols and false gods being worshipped when he is the one who created us. Would you not be jealous if you created a being and gave it free will so it could learn to love you as you were and for who you were? Would you not be angry if another creature you created came pretending to be their god and they fell down and worshipped and loved him instead? He created man and to him mankind was his children. The whole of creation was for one purpose, that purpose was to create for himself a companion that he could love and that could love him back and love him freely.

This story were living in is not history, it is His Story.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by rebellender

 

Your interpretation of biblical scriptures is greatly flawed. Yahweh being a "jealous god" comes from his dislike of idols and false gods being worshipped when he is the one who created us. Would you not be jealous if you created a being and gave it free will so it could learn to love you as you were and for who you were? Would you not be angry if another creature you created came pretending to be their god and they fell down and worshipped and loved him instead? He created man and to him mankind was his children. The whole of creation was for one purpose, that purpose was to create for himself a companion that he could love and that could love him back and love him freely.

This story were living in is not history, it is His Story.

while i agree with the points you are making, according to the original ten commandments (the ones in the Talmud NOT the ones in the current form of the Bible) there are other Gods, not just Yahweh. Moses worshiped Ba'al and being Egyptian (living in Egypt) there are many God's and stories that were later turned into Jewish traditions and later into Christian traditions. In theory, never does the text say there are no other Gods only that we are only to worship Yahweh.

The idea of "free will" doesn't correspond with "God's plan" though. The human idea of "free will" is already forseen in God's plan so "free will" is actually just a fulfillment of one's own destiny through God's plan. While we may feel we have free will, in the scripture there is no such thing as the "free will" concept. "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Your interpretation of biblical scriptures is greatly flawed.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

My interpretation as apposed to who. Calvary Chapel, Nazarene, Baptist, Witness, Catholic, Wesleyan, Lutheran.
Wiccan, Celtic Druid,,,which Eastern religion, which Muslim religion and finally which Jewish sect.

How many more did I miss here?

Originally posted by anarky1965
Lucifer: Translation of the Latin word meaning light bearer. The passage in the King James reads: "How tho art fallen from heaven O' Lucifer, son of the morning." Most people read this and fail to continue down to verse 16, where it is explicitly stated that Lucifer is a man. ie the King of Babylon."Is this the man that made the Earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms." The same word is used in Revelation and is attributed to Jesus.

Where did you reach the conclusion that Lucifer was the King of Babylon.?
And as I stated before, Lucifer fell and was stripped of his "divinity; making him to die like ADAM or Man.
I think "light bearer" was just a title and when Lucifer fell it was simply recycled.

Originally posted by PurpleSun

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by rebellender

 

Your interpretation of biblical scriptures is greatly flawed. Yahweh being a "jealous god" comes from his dislike of idols and false gods being worshipped when he is the one who created us. Would you not be jealous if you created a being and gave it free will so it could learn to love you as you were and for who you were? Would you not be angry if another creature you created came pretending to be their god and they fell down and worshipped and loved him instead? He created man and to him mankind was his children. The whole of creation was for one purpose, that purpose was to create for himself a companion that he could love and that could love him back and love him freely.

This story were living in is not history, it is His Story.

while i agree with the points you are making, according to the original ten commandments (the ones in the Talmud NOT the ones in the current form of the Bible) there are other Gods, not just Yahweh. Moses worshiped Ba'al and being Egyptian (living in Egypt) there are many God's and stories that were later turned into Jewish traditions and later into Christian traditions. In theory, never does the text say there are no other Gods only that we are only to worship Yahweh.

The idea of "free will" doesn't correspond with "God's plan" though. The human idea of "free will" is already forseen in God's plan so "free will" is actually just a fulfillment of one's own destiny through God's plan. While we may feel we have free will, in the scripture there is no such thing as the "free will" concept. "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Yeah, I agree with Purplesun.

We can say very little of god's plan for us. All we know is that Elohim created us in their likeness, and Yeshua says love Yahweh will all your mind, heart, and soul.

Originally posted by Magnificient
reply to post by threewhiteeyes

 

I think one of us is wrong.

I think Lucifer causing 1/3 of the angels to fall is an end-time prediction and nothing that's already happened. He desires to exalt his throne above the stars of god, but I've seen nothing to indicate that this has already happened.

Celtic lore places Lucifer, then called Lewid, at the stones of fire outside the gates of Eden. He walked among the stones of fire because he wasn't permitted into god's presence. He became jealous of man because god favored man over the beasts, Lucifer was noted as being a beast, and so he plotted mans fall from grace.

I don't think he's yet exalted his throne above the stars of god, but that it's his intention to do so and I also think that's why much of our science is secret, so he can get geared up without the public knowing about it.

I think one of us is right.

Not to pick a fight, but you are missing a third option and that is that your both wrong.

The thing you have to understand is the idea of lucifer/ shaitan as a fallen and rebellious angel is a purely Christian idea, the Jewish tradition actually had a much different view of Shaitan; the adversary. First of all Shaitan wasn't a specific angel, but a role or office, the role of the accuser of mankind and many angels through out the ages have filled the office, Samael, Uriel and others.

Also, the purpose or role of Shaitan is not to challenge Gods authority, return to heaven or even overthrow God; those are more later christian interpretations; in the Jewish tradition, Shaitans role was to accuse man kind and point out their sins and shortcomings to God; sort of like a divine prosecutor. On the hand Michael and the other good angels were there to point out mankind's good deeds; sort of like a divine defense attorney. And in the end God as the judge would weigh both sides against the other, in determining whether mankind was worthy of even continuing to exist.

And really it's only when you realize that shaitan serves and works for God, that stories like the Book of Job even make sense. I mean for instance, in the book of Job the devil sort of just walks up to or talks to God; seems kind of strange for God's enemy or a rebellious angel cast out of heaven to walk up to him so easily. Then, the devil points out Job and says, that he only loves God because he blesses him and points out that Job really has never been tested. At that point God, not Shaitan begins to curse Job and his life, testing him. Of course in the story Job proves his worth, and the devil loses his wager so to speak. But, the story doesn't really make since from the later Christian view of the devil, as a rebellious enemy angel.

The thing is the whole bible is not one set system, but the record of the evolution of a spiritual philosophical system; scribes wrestle with the system, ideas change, the over all religious understanding evolves, sometimes for the better some times for the worse. Even the early Jewish scribes debated with each other over understandings, interpretations and teachings within the tradition. There is actually a great body of history, on the evolution of Judism and Christianity; reformations, counter reformations etc. And, unless you understand the differences between the beliefs of Jews from different eras, let alone the differences between the beliefs of the Jews and later Christians, then you really can't even begin to argue and compare ideas between the new testament and old testament, etc.

reply to post by prisoneronashipoffools

Then, the devil points out Job and says, that he only loves God because he blesses him and points out that Job really has never been tested. At that point God, not Shaitan begins to curse Job and his life, testing him. Of course in the story Job proves his worth

The end of the Job story has Job getting half of the Towns gold, an ear ring at a time....

Thats where I leave town. the parable of the rich man entering the kingdom of heaven, Job getting half the towns riches and God, Gold and the Israelis' Gold and the Vatican Money and the Preacher
MONEY MONEY MONEY..... Spirituality Lacks Personality for a purpose

Originally posted by rebellender
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

I seem to remember you and I not agreeing on some point in the past but that was then. Thanks for your input. I like to call it the Journey but going from someone like me who was a brainwashed bible thumper to what I have come on to has been difficult. We have a very good record of history laying right in the ground under our noses and yet Religion will dictate what is is and isnt. I am too old now but there is about 12 years of school I would like to turn back time to learn.

I love ancient history and religion

edit on 17-2-2012 by rebellender because: (no reason given)

REB....It's NEVER TOO LATE TO LEARN! Hell! I learn something new everyday....today it was to make sure to to use Hydrogen Peroxide cleaning out a VERY DEEP SLICE from a sword....that had a little rust particlizing on the double edged blade. It is much better to use ordinary Dish Soap and with the help of some Medical...SUPER GLUE...I am able to type right now because if I had not done what I had done....minus the Hydrogen Peroxide...boy did THAT SUCK!....then remember to use ordinary Dish Washing Soap in a little squeeze bottle...run in under warm water...be careful..a person can loose ALOT of BLOOD this way....WARM WATER...CLEANING A WOUND....A PINT OR TWO LOST IN SECONDS....and I clot well....then using MEDICAL SUPER GLUE...not regular $1.99 a tube Super Glue which contains Sodium Cyanide....but the VERY EXPENSIVE SURGICAL SUPER GLUE that can seal specific types of wounds in seconds or repair an artery with a type of membraneous patch....plus a HEMOSTAT is always good to have in an emergency kit. Point is...it's NEVER TOO LATE TO LEARN! Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


ROFLMFAO!!!
I had a good day compared to you. Glad to see you can hit the keys

reply to post by rebellender

Did you reread the part about the Exodus?

Don't make a thread if you don't wish for folks to comment. I believe that's the whole point?

You will see in Exodus, when the Hebrews left Eygpt, they did have armed forces.

Do you not wish to address this?