Left vs. Right... a plea to stop the "Madness"

Divide et impera—divide and conquer—is an ancient strategy that is still used to this day.

The staunchest liberals and conservatives have at least one thing in common. Simply put it is, their guy can do no wrong. It is this commonality that has led the USA and other countries to the dire situations they currently face.

Though some of what I am saying may be true the world over, I live in the USA so that is what I am talking about specifically.

The left vs right, right vs left paradigm ignores the most basic truths of the people that hold these views. It turns us against each other ensuring that nothing of substance will ever be accomplished and that we will only further drown ourselves with our own hands.

As far as I am concerned, there is only one political party in the USA. Americans.

Many political ideologies exist but at the core of each of these ideologies is one simple fact, those who believe the ideology support it because they think it is what is best. Not just for them but for everyone.

Though we may disagree on how a better world is to exist, the driving force behind all of this "madness" is the yearning for a better existence for ourselves and our progeny.

There is so much hate expressed on this and other forums. So many insults thrown around. Is it group mentality? Pseudo-intellectualism? What drives somebody to ignore others and close their mind to other views? What drives somebody to insult someone over their beliefs rather than try to understand how someone could think so differently than them and why they feel that way.

You don't have to agree with somebody to acknowledge that they also want what is best. The challenge of politics should not be to insult others in an attempt to feel superior.

Political labeling is the lazy persons way of ending an argument. Obama supporters become "wacko liberals", Ron Paul supporters become "batsh#t crazy libertarians" and Rick Santorum supporters are simply "Religious nuts"

It is so easy to throw the insults around. You want to know what is hard?

Listening to an opposing argument and understanding why another person has that viewpoint.

Having a discussion without playing the political blame game.

Thinking for yourself and backing your thoughts and beliefs up with historical evidence.

Hearing an idea and not throwing a left or right label on it.

These things are hard so I am not surprised that the most common responses are also the most lazy responses. Whatever your political leanings are it is not us vs them. That is exactly what TPTB want. They want us arguing over everything so there is always someone else to blame.

Sorry for the lecture but I really just have one thing to say from here. The next time you get roped into a political discussion stop and remember that your antagonist, though they may seem very different from you, they are really simply a fellow american doing what they think is whats best.

It is your challenge to express yourself in a clear manner in which they may come to adopt your views. The first step in forming a view should be understanding all views on that particular subject, why some have those views and why you either agree or disagree with that view.

Lets drop the labels, the insults and hate. Is it so hard to simply have a discussion with someone without deeming them as simply a crazy "____"

We are all in this together. The first step to improving this country is for us to admit our guy CAN do wrong, our views MAY just be flawed and that our greatest political enemy just might actually have a valid point.

Please, lets stop the political madness. Lets stop hating each other because we disagree on whatever topic we might currently be arguing about. Lets try harder to develop our tolerance for others and lets try harder to understand our antagonist better and not simply view them as the evil opposition.

We have been divided for to long. It is time to find the things we can all agree on and form coalitions or we will surely be conquered.

any thoughts?

I won't bite, well not hard

Couldn't agree with you more.

It seems that people easily resort to calling each other right wing or left wing. This polarization distract us from the real discussion that we need to have. Yes some people would like to have less government involvement in our every day life and some would like to have the government create programs to make sure they have a safety net when everything goes to #. Instead of simply calling one's argument "too liberal" or too "conservative", let's instead discuss the fact and the implication of what is being proposed.

reply to post by sageofmonticello


Every sentence in the OP is worth it's weight in gold, imo.

Please, lets stop the political madness. Lets stop hating each other because we disagree on whatever topic we might currently be arguing about. Lets try harder to develop our tolerance for others and lets try harder to understand our antagonist better and not simply view them as the evil opposition.

I see this as the result of the continuous over reach of the government. It feels like we have a new parent/guardian.
This parent is expecting millions of people to confirm to it's particular house rules. In the meantime, millions of toes are being stepped-on, which causes frustration and ... madness, in a way. The house is too full, ...elbow to elbow...

Never before have we been able to voice our opinions so easily/conveniently as we can now. For a while, it felt good
In my own personal experience, I've found out that I'm more a part of the problem than I realized.
Now, the frustration of having my toes stepped on seems far more tolerable than the frustration I began to harbor and spread by my own haphazard perception of the "evil opposition".

I haven't "seen the light" and fallen into place as those in power seem to be forcing on me, us. What I'm seeing is a crowed house and impossible requests from a daddy I don't recognize, I don't know...(our Government and also the unrest in the world).

I still have my opinion and it matters to me but I don't have to make.my somewhat ignorant voice heard.
I think In person, we are all much more tolerable than online, I know I am.

I think change, tolerance will come, slowly... but it will happen to those who desire to be a part of a solution

SF
.

You know, Im sick of hearing this.

Stop the divide! Band together!

What it boils down to is that some people care about what happens to their contrymen and fellow citizens, and some dont.

The people that dont seem to have the money to spread their ideas. For example the Koch brothers.

For many years, Unions were not a "left vs right" thing. In the past 5 years or so, it has become one, due to constant pushing on conservative radio and TV. So whose fault is that? Who is dividing and conquering? It constantly seems the right half of the country....

but then all I hear about is how socialism and communism are ruining our great country...

If there was even one liberal media outlet as blatantly one sided as FOX, maybe I would agree with you. But I cant, because there isnt one. For all of the talk you hear about "liberal left wing media", our media is extremely right wing. For example, compare our news to news around the world, its shocking how rightwing even our most "liberal" outfits are.

When I see the lies stop, and when I stop seeing my beliefs treated as criminalistic, maybe then I will work with the "other side". Until then, I will view them as being intentionally stupid, because no matter how many facts you bring, they just always say "Nuh uh!" You can see it on countless threads here. For example, the SS flag threads...no matter how much proof you provide, they just insult you and dont believe you....then if you can prove that they are lying, and call them a liar, you get modded here on ATS!

But everything is an extensive left wing plot....

reply to post by brainswippin


Thanks for the response brainswippin.

This polarization distract us from the real discussion that we need to have

That's exactly it. It's a political slight of hand that allows the corrupt ruling class to continue to wage their wars on the american public. The left ignores the crimes and faults of the left and the right ignores the crimes and faults of the right. Both exist only to enable TPTB to go unpunished and remain in control.

I was starting to feel lonely on my island there. thanks so much for saying something.

reply to post by aching_knuckles

What it boils down to is that some people care about what happens to their contrymen and fellow citizens, and some dont.

This is exactly what I am talking about. So who are the people that care about what happens and who are the ones that don't. That is a prejudice and is unfounded.

Painting with such a broad brush while ignoring valid arguments made by opposition is what the problem is no matter what side of the political spectrum to lean towards.

The simple fact is we can all agree on many things and we should focus on that. The county and really the world is being lost because it is more fun to bicker than it is to tolerate and understand an opposing viewpoint.

I couldn't disagree more with you on this subject. There will always be people who lie to improve only their own lives. I am speaking more about the average person. If you are only speaking about the ruling class than maybe I would concede that you have a point.

Propaganda and lies are subjective.

When I see the lies stop, and when I stop seeing my beliefs treated as criminalistic, maybe then I will work with the "other side". Until then, I will view them as being intentionally stupid, because no matter how many facts you bring, they just always say "Nuh uh!" You can see it on countless threads here.

That is exactly what I am asking for. Though I don't think we should necessarily work together but rather simply listen and understand and discuss civilly. I realize it is a pipe dream but not one that isn't worth fighting for.

reply to post by sweetliberty


Thanks

I am as guilty as anyone else and have been a "part of the problem" more than I would care to admit. You make a good point about online vs in person.

Political discussion always eventually turns to name calling. People can and should have strong opinions and beliefs but they should also listen and understand other viewpoints and discuss things with respect on the topics merit rather than get in the team mentality.

Perhaps it is simply human nature.

There is no avoiding the tendency of those who want our support to use every technique they can conjure to cause us to feel solidarity with them.

They do this by creating narratives to convince us that our opinion is either valid, or there is something wrong with it, or us.

We naturally choose to seek identity with our surroundings, whether it be social, political, religious, or any other nonsensical triviality we can rationalize into legitimacy.

I truly agree that the "divide and conquer" of which you speak is largely correct.

However, I still feel inclined to point out that it is not our differences that separate us; but the theater (the narrative) that we 'accept.'

I don't think it would be necessarily beneficial to live in a world where everyone agrees with each other. It would be unnatural and probably atrophy our own drives to adapt and overcome, to create and implement, and even our desire to bridge the gaps between us.

"Us and them" is a dangerous and addictive posture to take when deciding collectively about nearly any topic.

But insofar as marketing political celebrity status - it is the mainstay of the show.

This is why we have cheerleader barbie and ken dolls for political leaders. This is why they reveal themselves almost invariably to be 'hacks' with little or no understanding of the people or nation they presume to govern. These people, who have elevated themselves in our society did so by employing the "us and them" strategy and using our zeal to be "in the right group" against our potential to be better informed and critical thinkers.

Sadly, I think your lament about the 'divide and conquer' matter is misplaced. I dare to opine that what we really need is to recognize that 'identity' and 'preference' are no substitute for reason and measured foresight.

Those who employ the technique the OP has brought us are in fact the people which tell us that they are the most trustworthy'; they characterize, pigeon-hole, and pander. They have multi-million dollar consultants to precisely determine how to convince us that anyone other than themselves is inadequate, inappropriate, and incapable of serving us... when the truth is NONE of them want to serve at all... they want to be served.

Left/Right, Conservative/Liberal, Party "A"/Party "B"... is there a measurable difference? Can you really see anyone of those clinging to the construct actually departing from the script? Do we really believe they "know" and "care" about "us"?

Guess again.

The reason there is a divide is because they engender it, and we allow them to. It makes money, it makes theater, it makes "entertainment."

Originally posted by sageofmonticello
reply to post by aching_knuckles

 

What it boils down to is that some people care about what happens to their contrymen and fellow citizens, and some dont.

This is exactly what I am talking about. So who are the people that care about what happens and who are the ones that don't. That is a prejudice and is unfounded.

Painting with such a broad brush while ignoring valid arguments made by opposition is what the problem is no matter what side of the political spectrum to lean towards.

The simple fact is we can all agree on many things and we should focus on that. The county and really the world is being lost because it is more fun to bicker than it is to tolerate and understand an opposing viewpoint.

I couldn't disagree more with you on this subject. There will always be people who lie to improve only their own lives. I am speaking more about the average person. If you are only speaking about the ruling class than maybe I would concede that you have a point.

Propaganda and lies are subjective.

Well, the case can be made that the Republicans are the corporate class, that do not care about the poor or average person. For example, opposition to welfare, womens services, unions, healthcare - these are all things republicans oppose. But in the rest of the world, progressive gains have been made in all of these areas, except the US. So the Republicans are holding us back. Im sorry, this is undeniable.

America is backward. You can prove it. Just look at our stats on our health, education, etc.

But the Republicans just scream "socialism" and "communism" and fight these things...like my examples with unions - for many years all political ideologies belonged to unions. Now Republicans are making it a "dirty word".
They want us to be like China.

Im sorry, I cannot and will not abide this. There will be no compromise on workers and citizens rights so a few can get even more rich. And this is where the divide is - and this is why Republicans spend so much money and so many lies to get people to believe their side.

Like I said, if there was a liberal outlet in America like FOX, maybe there would be an issue. Our situation is like the Spanish Revolution, except the Facists outnumber everyone by 10-1 and they are winning, because they have mastered brainwashing.

reply to post by aching_knuckles


Just to keep with your example and perhaps prove my point a bit.

You bring up Unions. You make the argument that you are either for unions or against workers rights. One can be against unions as they stand but be for workers rights. What about the right of a worker not to join a union, what about the legal benefits and status that unions have? Do they not deserve to be challenged? What would be wrong with having competing unions? what would be wrong with finding better and new ways to ensure the rights of workers?

The Left vs. Right mentality makes it so valid questions like these get removed from the conversation. It turns every issue into a black or white situation when in reality we all know every single issue is a shade of gray.

Rather than the issue being the best way to protect the rights of workers it becomes something entirely different.

reply to post by aching_knuckles

Well, the case can be made that the Republicans are the corporate class, that do not care about the poor or average person. For example, opposition to welfare, womens services, unions, healthcare - these are all things republicans oppose. But in the rest of the world, progressive gains have been made in all of these areas, except the US. So the Republicans are holding us back. Im sorry, this is undeniable.

I see where you're coming from when you talk about the MSM and should have added that to my first post when I spoke about stepping on toes.
As for "the corporate class", I was wondering, ...Can you see most of the millionaires and billionaires in Government are the same? ... they're one wonderful happy class... who live in another world...
Eta: Maxmars.... WOW!

reply to post by Maxmars

However, I still feel inclined to point out that it is not our differences that separate us; but the theater (the narrative) that we 'accept.'

I couldn't agree with you more on that point and really your whole post.

I like how you said

The reason there is a divide is because they engender it, and we allow them to. It makes money, it makes theater, it makes "entertainment."

That's really it in my opinion as well. It starts at the top with our "leaders" otherwise known as talking heads and spin artist and it goes all the way down to joe and jane doe playing the blame game in places like this allowing the whole charade to continue unhindered.

There is no avoiding the tendency of those who want our support to use every technique they can conjure to cause us to feel solidarity with them. They do this by creating narratives to convince us that our opinion is either valid, or there is something wrong with it, or us.

I agree, do you feel this is more a human nature sort of thing or is it more about those with power using it. Sort of a power corrupts sort of thing? Or something else all together?

Very powerful post. Thanks for chiming in with your thoughts.

divide and conquer..
to them its all a game they view humans as cattle.

reply to post by sageofmonticello


You're very kind.

In answer to your query, I think this is a human nature thing. Our vulnerability to manipulation seems universal across all people. The tools which the Madison Avenue/Hollywood psychologists bring to bear are rather uniform and seem to be fairly obvious, once you know what to look for.

Frankly, it can be rather depressing when you consider how many extremely bright and ostensibly intelligent people are totally mired in the theatrical zealotry of partisan politics. Many are quite sincerely offended when you challenge their adherence to the notion that the problems of our people can somehow be solved as long as we play the politics game according to the duopoly's rules.

Other countries are even less resistant as they embrace even more layers of "differences:" between themselves.

What's most important is the advice Fredrick Douglas gave one young aspiring activist who asked him how he could best serve the community.... the response was succinct and striking: "Agitate, agitate!"

As long as we have access to each other - there is hope. And since one strength of the human creature is the propensity to "never give up" I think we will always be ready to challenge...

and its the place of those protecting the status quo to limit that any way they can... so far their most effective tool is to convince us to kill each other over differences we probably don't even have.

That can't last.... and if they can't see that, they are already doomed to lose their precious status quo.

Great thread. In hopes more observe it.

It is so easy to throw the insults around. You want to know what is hard?
Listening to an opposing argument and understanding why another person has that viewpoint.

-part of OP quote


If we go beyond the trite labels, we can advance. Within a pre determined system, what else is there to do? Being driven even further, the dissonance and the apathy, in the end never saved what one has felt needed of change. We all have different belief even within the candidate of choice or even the proposed label of your way of living, the sooner acknowledged the better.

reply to post by dreamingawake


Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.

We all have different belief even within the candidate of choice...

Good point, even among those who agree on a candidate or even an ideology there is disagreement. Every single person has a perspective of their own. If people can make that acknowledgement and get past the bickering this world just might have a chance.

I'll drink to that!

People want drama. They enjoy it. That's the central issue. They don't want solutions.

I can tell you from long experience on this and other forums; whenever you post a thread about a problem, a complaint, some police officer who has bashed children, political scandal, or whatever, people will be all over it. It will go for pages and pages and get scores of stars and flags.

Post a thread about solutions, however, and you'll get nothing. Crickets. Five responses if you're lucky.

That is why they do it. Partisanship by itself is not the issue. A desire for conflict is. People simply want to fight. You're not going to be able to tell them not to, and have them listen to you. They love it too much.

I agree with this thread, for the record; but that's not the point.

Yes. This is pretty much the problem with America right now and The Two Party System. Take for instance this link.

247wallst.com...

Out of the top five happiest countries in the world , every one of them except for Australia has a multiparty system. The problem with Two Party system is simple. It creates a Us Vs Them Mentality that allows one side to justify abhorrent actions based on what the other side is doing. It's the number one problem facing America but it's hard to come up with a solid solution as the Average person is stuck in that US Vs Them Mentality.

There will always be differences in opinion. But when you get right down to it, anyone that espouses only one ideological thought, such as pure conservative or pure liberal, they are either insane or lying. For example, I consider myself to be more conservative, but I'm not completely against welfare, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. I just believe they should be pared down.

I usually vote Republican, but I voted for Obama, I voted for Bill Wright for Texas governor. I believe we all have a bit of the other ideology in us. It's just some are afraid to admit it.

Our sitting president has completely broken the left/right mold. In some ways he seems liberal/progressive, such as his Obamacare bill. In other ways he seems like a solid conservative Republican, like his completely confounding support of huge corporations, big oil and big pharma. In other ways he is solidly fascist, like his total support of assassinations of Americans, warmongering, and complete disregard of freedom and liberty of his subjects.

/TOA