Bush's Iraq War is Already Lost

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
The blood of those who die in Iraq today is on the hands of those who will not support the effort they die for. Now is the time for Americans to stand up and support those who give their all to make sure there are no more 9/11's and everytime an American denigrates that effort it deteriorates the morale of our nation.

Ask zcheng. That's his goal and you are his fellow travellers.

The blood of those died in Iraq is squarely in the hands of Bush/Cheney administration. This is a war of choice, an illegal pre-emptive war for no clear threat.

People like you supporting the war without reason share the same guilt with those started war.

Iraq war should never happened in the first place. The first priority is to minimize the loss. What lost is lost. The only thing US people can do is to limit such loss of both blood and treasure.

Someone once told me "if you don't like it, change it. If you don't try to change it, it must not have been that bad in the first place". I'm curious as to what, if anything, the people on this forum who are so passionate about each of their own sides are doing to change it? Anyone running for public office? Anyone even bother to write a Senator? I think it would lend a lot more weight to someones opinion if they were to put action behind it. AND I KNOW THAT EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS POSTED IN THIS FORUM IS REGISTERED AND PLANNING TO VOTE,,, RIGHT!??!?!

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by Jamuhn
You know what, I do support the troops, that's why I say........BRING THEM HOME.

I fell for that lie once. Try it out on someone else.

I am sure you will support:

BRING TROOPS to HELL!

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by Jamuhn
You know what, I do support the troops, that's why I say........BRING THEM HOME.

I fell for that lie once. Try it out on someone else.

I am sure you will support:

BRING TROOPS to HELL!

I hope you're not serious.

Originally posted by zchengPeople like you supporting the war without reason share the same guilt with those started war.

With all due respect, but your opinion is meaningless to me. What have you done to bring liberty to your own nation of origin? Does Tiananmen Square ring a bell? When Iraq has a democracy, what will China have?

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
With all due respect, but your opinion is meaningless to me. What have you done to bring liberty to your own nation of origin? Does Tiananmen Square ring a bell? When Iraq has a democracy, what will China have?

I support the original goals of Tiananmen Square movement, like anti-corruption, anti-GuanDao. It is sad the students were exploited by foreign forces to destablize China, and evolved into riots.

China found our way of governance. Iraqi people will find their own way of governance. I guess Iraqi will have a combination of tribal and religious government. I have no sympathy to invasion.

Originally posted by zcheng
China found our way of governance. Iraqi people will find their own way of governance. I guess Iraqi will have a combination of tribal and religious government. I have no sympathy to invasion.

Well, Iraq's getting a little help in the process thanks to Saddam. We don't need your sympathies. However, I have been impressed with China's slow movement toward a free market economy. It would be nice, though, if there were democracy there. I don't know how anyone can point the finger at Bush when you have someone like Mao in your history. Mao is the undisputed king of mass murder in all of human history.

I think there is hope for China. I just wish it could come sooner. Remember it hasn't been that long that we defended China against Japan.

[edit on 04/9/16 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I don't know how anyone can point the finger at Bush when you have someone like Mao in your history. Mao is the undisputed king of mass murder in all of human history.

On the contrary, Mao is the greatest savior of Chinese people from oppression and exploitation by the rich. He is ranked No.1 or No.2 in the thousands years of History of China. I of course know the immeasurable loss of opporunity and wealth during the decades in cultral revolutions. But due to his great leadership, he left China the leading technology in nukes, missiles, satelite, etc. They are still the pillars guarding the safety of China today.

His experience, strategy, and success at least inspired many nations of people to gain their independence.

You opinion on Mao shows how ignorant and biased you are.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I think there is hope for China. I just wish it could come sooner. Remember it hasn't been that long that we defended China against Japan.

Chinese people are grateful to anyone help us against Japan. In the same sense, China also help US against Japan. It was war against the common enemy. There is not much help from US before Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. In fact, there was large trading between US and Japan before US joined the war.

you all realize we occupied japan for about 7 years after WWII, don't you? and look at how our relationship is today. and how developed japan is now. is iraq not capable of such progress? for all of you who simply state "iraq will never be a democray", i ask why? why do you believe that? are you pessimists? do you not believe in giving it a chance? (and no, 1-2 years is not a chance) we killed 100,000's in japan and that apparently didn't have a lasting negative effect. japan had a likewise religious extremism as iraq does, just think of kamakazees(sp?). essentially, japan and iraq are very similiar. japan worked, why don't you think iraq will?

Originally posted by astroblade
you all realize we occupied japan for about 7 years after WWII, don't you? and look at how our relationship is today. and how developed japan is now. is iraq not capable of such progress? for all of you who simply state "iraq will never be a democray", i ask why? why do you believe that? are you pessimists? do you not believe in giving it a chance? (and no, 1-2 years is not a chance) we killed 100,000's in japan and that apparently didn't have a lasting negative effect. japan had a likewise religious extremism as iraq does, just think of kamakazees(sp?). essentially, japan and iraq are very similiar. japan worked, why don't you think iraq will?

It is because in Japan, US preserved former governance structure: the Empiror of Japan. Most Japanese people were devoted to their Emperor and act according to his decree.

Current US puppet government has no credibility in the eyes of Iraqi people. The one remotely equivalent to the Japan Emperor is Sistani. I do not know why US do not want him to lead Iraq.

Iraqi people will defeat the invasion and occupation.

Originally posted by astroblade
you all realize we occupied japan for about 7 years after WWII, don't you? and look at how our relationship is today. and how developed japan is now. is iraq not capable of such progress? for all of you who simply state "iraq will never be a democray", i ask why? why do you believe that? are you pessimists?

Why don't you direct that same question to the NIC and the CIA?

www.sfgate.com.../c/a/2004/09/16/MNGD78PKMG1.DTL

Are we the pessimists? Or are you the dancing rats on the sinking ship? George Bush must certainly know more about what's going on in Iraq than the CIA does, right? I mean, he's the president, and he's gonna do what's right!

Democracy in Iraq was never the goal of this invasion. Only now are we there to Liberate the Iraqi people. Why? well...

story.news.yahoo.com.../ap/20040917/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/iraq_weapons&cid=542&ncid=716

Don't forget the real story

Alright then Oppoldeldoc,

Explain to me in your own words why we are in Iraq, since you obviously think it is to steal the poor innocent Iraqi's oil even though Iraqi oil accounts for only 6% of total US oil imports. If we wanted their oil, than we could have done it legitametly and lifted the economic trade sanctions Clinton put on them back in the 90's. Or will you blame Haliburton for "stealing" it when in fact they are over their risking their own lives to rebuild Iraqi oil refineries so that they can resume selling their primary export to the world market to earn some profit, or is that a bad thing?

Iraq needs a democracy, they need to wake up and join the 21st century since they haven't been able top do so under Saddam. And BTW, Iraq poses quite a threat, not just to Isreal, but to the rest of the middle east as well. They threaten to de-stabilize the enitre region and the only way we can stop that is to engage and defeat them on their own soil. You may say that by doing so the terrorists will start to hate the US, TOO LATE! They already do and will continue to do so even if we hadn't gone into Afghanistan or Iraq at all. As for the civilians, whether or not they like it now once things are up and running again they WILL be happy. Iraq will no longer be a threat to its neighbors (can someone say Kuwait?) will not aid and abet terrorists which they have been doing for a long long time (the senior Al-Queda officials behind the 9/11 attacks met in Iraq right before the attack) and they will be able to sell the world their oil and get their economy up and running which is the ultimate goal.

Hopefully Iran will be next on Bush's agenda.

-Jordan

I have been listening to some people here for a while. Lets face it Iraq was a big mistake. There were no WMD"s This was just a ploy by The Republicans and big business to get a foot hold Where the oil is. As far as our toops go their getting Scre...... by the government once again. Im a vet and if I thought this war was right I would be more than happy to go and fight for my country and the free world. This is about oil and a bunch of bible toteing flag waving parnoid nut cases that think they are the ones because they think their God has put them here to do what ever they want with what ever they want because their God Rules! They think Mother Earth is here for them to do what ever they want to do with her! They are no better than the Islamic extremist They seek to destroy, they just do it in a different way. Lets face it to Bush is a moron he couldn't find his way out of a paper bag if it wasn't for Cheney. If Bush gets four more years I and everyone else in the world should be really scared be cause these people are nuts! I joke with my republican mother and tell her Bush is the Anti-Christ which sometimes I really think he is. This man has no heart or soul. Remember you have nothing to fear but fear it self. Just wanted to add that one day the whole world will live as one or not at all IMO. The problem in this country is that hardly any of the real people don't care anymore because they know their vote doesn't count, we seen that in Florida. I will always be for the troops till the day I die! By the way I volunteered to be the US Army. It was one of the best things I have ever done and proud of it. 12Bravo Combat Engineer

[edit on 16-9-2004 by friday2112]

Is it about oil or isn't it? The answer may be partially. Check this out. May give some insight as to what REALLY is going down. More about HOW oil is paid for.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

All right folks.

I think that we can have passion, but eliminate the personal attacks.

Some thoughts....

The quote "I support the troops, bring them home." While that may be a very sincere sentiment, to a grunt in the line, it rings disingenuous. I know, I have been there.

We could win this thing, if we put a lot more boots on the ground, and take a much firmer hand in the country. But I have the sneaking suspicion that the politicians won't let that happen. Can we do it, yes. Will we do it? That is another question all together.

Iraq may have launched her scuds at Israel, but that was about all the threat that Iraq ever posed. In all of the Arab Israeli' conflicts, Iraq contributed 4 brigades in the 1967 war. There you have it!

I am still most disturbed by our moral claims in the Iraq war, when we were impotent in Rawanda, and are in the Sudan. You see, in this day in age, it is all right to slaughter Christians when they aren't controlling large oil fields. So I do not believe with have acted with moral clarity. And unlike some, I blame Clinton and his hand wringing for many of our problems, not just GWB.

But no matter how you slice it, Freedom is the answer for all people. But I believe they must grab it for themselves. Can people worship freely in China, the middle east? No. Persecution continues. I know, I have many friends who reach the underground churches in those regions.

So, please, my friends, let us disagree agreeably.

The Spider

Since when did you become a military analyst, zcheng?

It hasn't really begun!

It'll be over, with U.S. victory, when the fat lady sings in Biejing!

Originally posted by Intelearthling
Since when did you become a military analyst, zcheng?

Since my first post in ATS, where I claim in war between US and China, both will be destroyed.

To win a war, weapon is only one elements of many. In guerrila war, weapon is not the defining fact, but the motivation and determination of the Resistance.

You can draw lessons from history. US has forgotten why US lose in Vietnam.

Thank you for posting this, zcheng.
Problem is a large portion of the American public knows nothing about Vietnam. Or any past US war. We have many uneducated people in the US.

Bear in mind many US veterans groups have been working to get the troops out for a long time now. Look into these organizations. Speaking to American civilians can be very frustrating because most lead sheltered lives. Few Americans have traveled outside of the country. Most are a tad spoiled, too, if you know what I mean.

This is why you see such blatant apathy towards our soldiers here.
Soldiers represent reality. They've "been there." This rubs many Americans the wrong way. People won't verbalize this, mind you, but it's the truth!

Note, too - lots of people claim to be "Vietnam Vets" and "New York Firemen" online who aren't. The internet attracts scores of poser tough guys. Trust me - most Viet Vets don't support this war!

Make a point to connect with real ones through activist organizations.




[edit on 17-9-2004 by bushblows]

Originally posted by spidergooch
But no matter how you slice it, Freedom is the answer for all people. But I believe they must grab it for themselves. Can people worship freely in China, the middle east? No. Persecution continues. I know, I have many friends who reach the underground churches in those regions.

Yes, Chinese people can practice their religion freely. Many Elders believing in Jesus converged in their place every sunday, since I knew things. It has been that over 20 years.

No. Currently Chinese government does not recognize the authority of Pope. Pope can not appoint ministors for Chinese followers. There are underground Churches, mainly organized by those that want Pope to gain the authority in China. Other than that, there are several cults.

If you want to know more see below:

The China Christian Council (CCC) was founded in 1980. During the years 1966 to 1979 (the Cultural Revolution era), all religious activity in China had been outlawed, and Christian congregations only survived in small house groups. With the re-instatement of the policy of religious freedom in 1979, the need for a national church structure soon became obvious.
www.amityfoundation.org...


"Self governance", one of the Three Self principles, aims at having the Chinese church manage its own affairs in matters of pastoral work, building theology, Bible printing and distribution of spiritual literature. "Self support" means reliance on the financial contributions of Chinese Christians rather than accepting subsidies from the West. And "self propagation" refers to the fact that Chinese Christians proclaim the Gospel themselves. The Three Self principles do not interfere with our faith or command the church, they only promote independence.

www.amityfoundation.org...