US Debates Military Strikes on 'Nuclear Iran'

it will depend on the west's truly following thier threat and refuse to sell into the ecomony of Iran. -(which is laughable since the french promised the same thing with Iraq and didn't) I would predict that they would collapse w/in the year. The majority of the Iranian people oppose the Mullahs.

as for the the truth of Irans Nuclear capacity ...there are photos of thier shalube(sp?) missle which has the cablity to reach deep into Israel or Europe. The armed head is very similar to the one the North Koreans have been parading around... Further evidence of Iran's weapon program is allegedly in Libya's back pocket and will be the source of the Bush October surprise... Triploi has closed the weapons development labs that were being used by IRAN,Syria and Iraq.

"NORAD would already have the OpPLAN..you don't need the CinC.
Where does it say that norad can override the constitution and instal martial law? Perhaps it says it somewhere, but I am unaware of it. "

No, I said NORAD has OpPlans to deal with North American Airspace incursions...I said thank God the military doesn't have authority to envoke marshall law..please read more carefully.

"quote: Quarantined certainly-FEMA handles that one.
What? FEMA is not authorized to cauterize american cities with nukes!"

I'd rather hope not, but then again if it were LA....

"quote: FEMA again, or the NIH-I'm not in the know on that one, but certainly not the POTUS.
FEMA needs presidential authority to act, its not independent, and the National Institute of Health can't prevent private companies or shipyards from conducting business like that either."

Does FEMA need presidental authority to buy a box of ball-point pens? Do they need an executive order to conduct a readiness exercise in North Dakota? Do they need presidental involvement to stage equipment for response in the wave of a hurricane? What makes you think that an agency like FEMA has to have a presidential direction to do things?

"quote: Like any good chief executive officer, you hire experts to handle their fields.
Do you honestly beleive that there is no situation that could've been occuring that might've required direct presidental action?"

I honestly don't think there is anything the president could have done in that situation that would expedite response or save life, limb, or property.

"quote: when the country is under attack, a military response may be required.
The military is not the only necessary response to all possible forms of attack. "

That's why I said MAY.

"quote: We are a nation of law.
Yes, and a proper reponse might very well require executive orders to supersede those laws."

Very true, however what executive order should be issued within 10 minutes of being notified that a second plane had struck the WTC?

"quote: Thank God.[that they can't enact martial law]
So if it was necessary, you would rather it not be done?"

No, thank God I live in a country where such decision are made by competent, duly authorized civilians and not edict of some Generalismo.

"quote: , the only type of weapons that require direct presidential involvement are nuclear.
And chemical and biological and god knows what else."

The United States does not use Chemical or Biological agents-they are illegal under International Law. (other than some forms of tear gas-and it's arguable that itear gas is legal either) And what else...other than maybe some lasers and directed energy weapons, what else is there? (OHHH, I almost forgot, that weapon....shhhhh, They aren't supposed to know about that...)

"I know 7-8 minutes isn't a long time, I know that what ended up happening didn't require him, and I know that its important to remain calm and collected in times of stress, but that doesn't mean that he needed to just sit there."


He has to be sitting, standing, or laying somewhere. He needed more information to act upon such as who, what, when, where, and why. I would love to have a transcript of what was said in the limo on the way to the airport. I'll wager it wasn't much simply because no one had sufficient information to act upon or to plan with. I have been in charge of command and control during some interesting situations, disaster response, accidents, bomb scares and the like. Tons of information flows. Most of it wrong. People who make reports get excited-they pass incorrect info, wrong locations, wrong contact info, you name it. One thing that is absolutley necessary for a command center to do, is insure that any information passed to a senior commander is correct, confirmed, and free from speculation. It would not surprise me in the least if a full hour passed before actionable material surfaced-perhaps longer.

"If there had been several other aircraft about to be taken over, and the president had jumped in and orderd that imeadiately, then more attacks would've been averted. He didn't, and luckily there weren't. But the people who were making that decision weren't even clear if it was theirs to make. The president, having supreme authority, at least on those sorts of things, could have enacted immeadiate and decisive action."

How would the situation been different if the president gave the order at 09XX v. someone else giving the order at the same time?

"quote: Bushes whereabouts has nothing to do with it.
I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that when he was siting there he was making decisions on what to do, without further information, without access to all the information he'd want? He was in a chair in school, not in his command and control center in AF1"

I'm saying that where he is physically makes no difference. He is briefed on pertinant facts, actionable facts, no matter where he is. Since we are playing what if, let's say what if he got ahold of some bad barbeque and got a monsterous case of the shats. What if he were in the crapper when this happened? It's someones job to stick their head in and say, Mr. President, a second aircraft has struck the WTC, America is under attack. (whatever your verbiage was) Should he stop and wipe? Or should he leave the bathroom with his trousers around his ankles? Can he give some command that might save the world in the next 15 seconds? I think you know the answer-same theory, only a slightly different timeline.

"quote: - again NORAD would handle the initial response
I am thoroughyl uncomfortable with the idea of the military responding to an invasion of the homeland without the presidents knowledge."

You may be uncomfortable with it, I'm not. I'd be a lot more uncomfortable if we didn't have a defense plan that operated only with one persons "permission." Are you familiar with where Hitler was during the hours leading up to the D-Day invasion? Same concept, we operate in accordance with law and standing directives and policy and not waiting for a single pesonality to make a decision-unless it is the release of nuclear weapons.

"Obviously there would be a delay even with him in his office, but I honestly cannot see the rationale for sitting there (not looking very calm or strong by the way)."

I respectfully disagree. I don't think he had enough actionable information to do anything in the school, in the Oval Office, in AF1, or any other location.

"quote: And the president would order an edict that no one should stampede?
No, but he would order military units in those cities to install martial law and get everything under control 15 minutes sooner, stopping it 15minutes quicker than if he didn't, regardless of however long it actually took them to stop it. "


Once again, we are not talking about a linear timeline. There were hundreds of people on duty last night that were saying,

"OK the president is going to want to know what FEMA is doing in Stuart Fl in the wake of hurricane Jeanne. What options are available? What resources are in place? What is Florida asking for? C'mon people, we're trying to get the man reelected here."

When he asks for a status report, he expects to get one quickly and he expects people to anticipate what he'll need and to have options ready for him to select. A good Commander would know that he can't ask for what's not available-it's impossible to ask for a status briefing when the status is unknown.

"quote: If you get a lethal dose of nerve gas, you're pretty much dead.
There are antidotes for several possible chemicals being used in these hypothetical chemical attacks, and getting control of the the cities a quarter of an hour earlier might be worth not being able to sit there and 'project strength'. "

You are right there are some antidotes-primarily atrophine injected into the upper hip! However, if you are not fotunate enough to have a couple of autoinjectors on you, basically you're screwed. Those who get to the hospital might live if they got a borderline dose of nerve gas. Nonetheless, if it were me, I'd call 911 and not wait for the Government to step in.

"From what has been reported, it was like I said above. There was no precise info. All anyone knew was that the country was being attacked. Could be alqaida. Could be the North Koreans, could be the Nazis from an alternate timeline in which they rule the world or could even be the crab-people from beneath the earty. I really think sitting there, even if he had succeded in 'projecting strength', simply wasn't worth it."

I have another cutesy little saying: ready, fire, aim. I have seen a lot of commanders who use this philosophy-all bad ones. We weren't all that ready for September 11th, and I'm glad Bush didn't fire before he took time to aim. He didn't project calmness or strength to you? Me either, and I was pretty shook up at the time.

As far as the crab-people from beneath the earth-I wish it had been them as they would be a lot easier to screen in an airport terminal!

Originally posted by Sargon of Agade
please read more carefully.

i replied to this:
"Issued presidential special orders installing military law over said cities? "
NORAD would already have the OpPLAN..you don't need the CinC.

As far as FEMA, yes, they do need, from what I understand, presidental authority to begin taking action, I think that the pres even has to declare the specific region that they can act in and make it a 'disaster/emergency area'.

Does FEMA need presidental authority to buy a box of ball-point pens? Do they need an executive order to conduct a readiness exercise in North Dakota? Do they need presidental involvement to stage equipment for response in the wave of a hurricane? What makes you think that an agency like FEMA has to have a presidential direction to do things?

I honestly don't think there is anything the president could have done in that situation that would expedite response or save life, limb, or property.

Ok. At least we have an honest disagreement.

"quote: when the country is under attack, a military response may be required.
The military is not the only necessary response to all possible forms of attack. "

That's why I said MAY.

"quote: We are a nation of law.
Yes, and a proper reponse might very well require executive orders to supersede those laws."

Very true, however what executive order should be issued within 10 minutes of being notified that a second plane had struck the WTC?

"quote: Thank God.[that they can't enact martial law]
So if it was necessary, you would rather it not be done?"

No, thank God I live in a country where such decision are made by competent, duly authorized civilians and not edict of some Generalismo.

"quote: , the only type of weapons that require direct presidential involvement are nuclear.
And chemical and biological and god knows what else."

The United States does not use Chemical or Biological agents-they are illegal under International Law.
And it would take the authority of the Office of the President of the United States and Commander in Cheif of the United States Military to override that international law when national existence is threatened.

shhhhh, They aren't supposed to know about that

I for one think its about time the public learned about the man-eating squirrels.

How would the situation been different if the president gave the order at 09XX v. someone else giving the order at the same time?

THe problem was that the other people who gave the order weren't even sure that they could give it. Its like when the chain of command fails, and too many officers are out of commission, there is a time when command must be established. With the president around, there is never such a time.

"quote: Bushes whereabouts has nothing to do with it.
I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that when he was siting there he was making decisions on what to do, without further information, without access to all the information he'd want? He was in a chair in school, not in his command and control center in AF1"

I'm saying that where he is physically makes no difference. He is briefed on pertinant facts, actionable facts, no matter where he is. Since we are playing what if, let's say what if he got ahold of some bad barbeque and got a monsterous case of the shats. What if he were in the crapper when this happened? It's someones job to stick their head in and say, Mr. President, a second aircraft has struck the WTC, America is under attack. (whatever your verbiage was) Should he stop and wipe? Or should he leave the bathroom with his trousers around his ankles? Can he give some command that might save the world in the next 15 seconds? I think you know the answer-same theory, only a slightly different timeline.

"quote: - again NORAD would handle the initial response
I am thoroughyl uncomfortable with the idea of the military responding to an invasion of the homeland without the presidents knowledge."

You may be uncomfortable with it, I'm not. I'd be a lot more uncomfortable if we didn't have a defense plan that operated only with one persons "permission." Are you familiar with where Hitler was during the hours leading up to the D-Day invasion? Same concept, we operate in accordance with law and standing directives and policy and not waiting for a single pesonality to make a decision-unless it is the release of nuclear weapons.

"Obviously there would be a delay even with him in his office, but I honestly cannot see the rationale for sitting there (not looking very calm or strong by the way)."

I respectfully disagree. I don't think he had enough actionable information to do anything in the school, in the Oval Office, in AF1, or any other location.
In the school, he can't connect properly interact with the FAA, Norad, and the relevant Defense Intelligence agencies, certainly not as quickly and efficiently as in a strategic command center. But, again, I agree, he isn't going to be making even high level decisions. But, surely, the president can do more in an emergency than merely authorize the use of nukes.

"quote: And the president would order an edict that no one should stampede?
No, but he would order military units in those cities to install martial law and get everything under control 15 minutes sooner, stopping it 15minutes quicker than if he didn't, regardless of however long it actually took them to stop it. "


Once again, we are not talking about a linear timeline. There were hundreds of people on duty last night that were saying,

"OK the president is going to want to know what FEMA is doing in Stuart Fl in the wake of hurricane Jeanne. What options are available? What resources are in place? What is Florida asking for? C'mon people, we're trying to get the man reelected here."

When he asks for a status report, he expects to get one quickly and he expects people to anticipate what he'll need and to have options ready for him to select.
Yet from what you have been saying, there is nothing for him to make a decision on. If its a given that he has to make decisions, then in such an extreme circumstance as an attack of unknown proportions and the united states would surely warrant hopping to it.

Well, I guess we just disagree. At least I'm not the one who'll be visited by the NSA today. I warned you; they aren't supposed to know about the man-eating squirrels.

Originally posted by Sargon of Agade

"NORAD would already have the OpPLAN..you don't need the CinC.

Where exactly was NORAD on 9/11? As far as I can tell, it's not exactly normal for NORAD to ignore planes when they turn off their transponders, do 90 or 180 degree turns and fly towards major cities for 90 minutes.

Actually, the answer to that question is pretty interesting and makes some sense, but I can't really tell you that. I am quite certain however, that while the may have 'caught us with our collective pants down' then, it won't happen again.

Are you certain on the 60-90 minutes time reference? It seems to me that after initial climb out at Boston Logan, the flight time to Manhattan would be pretty short, especially if one didn't attempt to climb to cruise altitude. If you have a factual source for that timeline, I would like to read it please.

I recall that one of the WTC planes altered its course first around the Capitol City of NYS, Albany, and from then on headed torwards NYC. I also recall hearing that the plane that craashed in the Pennsylvania Field, that after it altered its flight course (or very soon there after) was not located again until it had crashed. This was from a 'documentary' from the people at NOW based on the fallout from the 911 Commission.

I've seen the squirells