Catholic League Poised To Go To War With Obama Over Mandatory Birth Control Payments

1. The crux of the matter is that the Catholic Church and its congregation HAD FORGOTTEN that they are living in USA, and not in some Vatican Catholic Protectorate.

USA is a SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC, that abides by freedom of worship, NOT JUST for the Catholics, but for a broad range of beliefs. If the Catholics believe that their dogma is worthy of being incorporated into the laws of the land, then it MUST CONVINCE the MAJORITY of americans that Catholicism is right and ALL OTHER religions and beliefs are wrong, and turn USA into a Catholic land, the way King Phillip of Spain in the 16th century tried to force England to be.

2. 'Pay unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and pay unto that which belongs to the Kingdom of Heaven' so said the Messiah.

Did the israelites had any love for brutal Rome? None. But the Messiah did not preach rebellion. He taught civilisation progress to all whom loved our Creator - peaceful co-existance, with love, logic and reason being the central theme to achieve progress. He even rebuke Peter for buying a sword to protect him on his last day on Earth as a free man before being betrayed.

The Healthcare benefits is part and parcel of the tax programme for employers. Such tax is applied across the board, to every one that seeks to share the space of USA. USA is not brutal Rome whom robbed its citizens. The Healthcare initiative is a benefit and a choice to americans regardless of creed or religion through the use of shared wealth from taxes collected secularly.

Yet again, the Catholic Church had made this error of judgement with its attack upon the secular Constitution, and had caused not only friction to the other religious groups, but confusion as well as to the american Catholic faithfuls.


3. It is a noble deed if the Catholic Church wishes to embark on creating hospitals and colleges for ALL poor americans regardless of religion. However, it must have its own necessary funds to set up such charitable institutions and not rely on secular taxpayers funding, or it can no longer be called a Private Charity organisation in any sense.

Worse if it intends to use secular funds meant for all americans, but practices discrimination when it is applied to those in need whom may not profess to the dogmas of the Catholic Church.


4. Let not the pro or against Abortion issue, or politics play a part in the religious affairs of congregations or be made use of by anyone. Religion is a personal issue which rest in private domain, while affairs of the state are societal issues that lays within the shared secular public domain.

I'm not a fan of religious organizations, but if a Private organization such as a Church has a certain 'belief' (which is total BS by the way) what right does Government have to force someone to commit against a belief.

Is Contraception now a 'right'? Because I view it as an elective treatment based on the DECISION of you having sex. I wouldn't expect anyone to pay for my condoms. I CHOOSE to have sex, nobody makes me.

So why should the government FORCE an option to pay for an elective decision like contraception?

But then I remembered there is public tax breaks for Churches, etc. So it's a quagmire. Because if they aceept public funds, they must abide by Government laws.

Originally posted by PaxVeritas
But then I remembered there is public tax breaks for Churches, etc. So it's a quagmire. Because if they aceept public funds, they must abide by Government laws.

Public funding is a good example of how a government can actually exercise a gigantic leverage when they contribute a small percentage of an organization's income.

How well do you think these catholics would get along with Ron Pauls platform?
Maybe this might be big enough to swing a signifigant number of votes that way?
It would be interesting if such a developement occurred wouldnt it?

Their are outs for contientious objectors are there not?
The whole area is a minefield that may topple Obamas chances and i say thats probaby a good thing......

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
The crux of the matter is that the Catholic Church and its congregation HAD FORGOTTEN that they are living in USA, and not in some Vatican Catholic Protectorate.

Um ... no. The CRUX of the matter (that was clever, btw ) is that the govenment has forgotten that this is the USA and that there are Constitutional laws to follow.

the Catholic Church had made this error of judgement with its attack upon the secular Constitution,

Sorry bud .. you got that backwards. The Catholic Church is sticking up for the Constitution - the First Amendment to be exact. It's the US Government that is attacking the Constitution by pushing for a law that is in direct opposition to the First Amendment.

Originally posted by Finalized
It's one of their core beliefs. If the federal government mandated that vegans eat meat, it would be a similar issue.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

Except that they are not mandating the use of the birth control, but they are requiring it to be part of the insurance package. So no not he same thing at all.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
[Sorry bud .. you got that backwards. The Catholic Church is sticking up for the Constitution - the First Amendment to be exact. It's the US Government that is attacking the Constitution by pushing for a law that is in direct opposition to the First Amendment.

Sorry bud to you. The First Amendement applies to ALL AMERICANS, not just the Catholic Church or its congregation.

When USA becomes a Vatican Protectorate, then can catholics rewrite the constitution as it suits themselves. Till then, it is an attack upon the current Constitution of 200+ years as it stands now.

There can be no religious extremisim in any form in a secular republic that USA is. Pro or anti abortion is an issue that cut across all religious lines, affects not just catholics but everyone as well. It is an issue that only the secular nation can decide AS A WHOLE, and not based upon the whims of the few, a freedom to choose by peaceful electoral and legislative means.

I think Obama & Co. are in a quagmire with this issue.

It may be possible that a waiver could be applied for and granted.

It a waiver is granted, we could actually see more people being waived than participating.

Then where does the universal utopia stand THEN ?

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


But the gov is granting religious waivers....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The HC law has a clause.

reply to post by xuenchen


Not every Church gets an exemption. The social tax paying Amish did so because they can prove that they had their own funding for their own small community and will not rely on a single cent from secular tax payers for its medical needs.

Can the 70 million Catholics say the same?

Utlimately, we all need healthcare benefits. Medical costs are extremely high, more so on the lower classes and a nearly non-existant middle class. Catholics cannot claim they want secular tax payers funding for all other medical expenses except for abortion, nor can Catholic employers of any subsidiarily or wholly public funded enterprise practise religious DISCRIMINATION to those in need.

Pro or Anti Abortion bills needs to be fully discussed and debated in all their merits and demerits in order for society to progress and co-exist peacefully,so that more may be better informed and willing support whatever bill that is finally passed.

As idealistic as we each nobly wish to be, we must at the same time be REALISTIC to the realities of current sexual permissiveness in society. Changes must certainly be made, if society feels strongly against abortion, or it feels liberalism in sexuality be continued. It takes education of our young, and they must be allowed to make the choice guided by those whom had suffered from either camp, to guide and choose.

Thus Utopia will not come overnight, but over time, as long as we honestly and sincerely debate the issue for progress to be made, and not force for change OVERNIGHT.

To force will only bring dissatisfactions and divisions, such as what the Catholic demands now are doing to society by forcing its hand, and will equally be faced with forced hands by others. Let us be wise for once.

Originally posted by TheCommentator
Shouldnt they just pray that it goes away?
Or do they not believe in that crap?

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

In other words if they didn't want to get pregnant they shouldn't have done the deed. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

They wouldn't have to worry if they obeyed the Lord in the first place, instead of doing things their way, the way of the world which is the way of Satan.

If you sew disobedience you reap disaster.

One of the things that no one seems to have brought up is that the First Amendment does not necessarily apply here. This would not be the first time that the Government curbed in the interest of the public good. Just ask any Mormon that can't legally marry more than one woman. Or the Rastafarian's that aren't allowed to smoke weed on religious grounds. Granted it is a slippery slope and we are on questionable ground with this one. Thankfully these situations only arise every hundred years or so. Perhaps it would have been easier if it had been mandated that insurance companies be required to offer these things in every plan available.

reply to post by xuenchen


This is all very interesting.

While many of the Catholics can certainly go ahead and vote however they want.
They need to realize they aren't the only people in this country.
They are many other religions out there that may care or may not care about this.

Within the Constitution we do not limit anyone in this country based upon that religion.
They are free to practice their religion as they wish.

However that should also run the other way. And the government should enforce that no religion may impose it's will upon others who do not share their religious views.

I agree with a previous poster, this has far less to do with "birth control" and far more to do with the government telling religous institutions what they can do.

This country was founded on the principle's of religous freedoms. Freedom to exercise, not freedom from, (although that counts too if you read enough of the founders papers).

If the government starts telling the religious institutions what their health care and insurance can cover, what will they start telling them next???

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


What if you are from a different religion that does not share that belief?

If you are a Hindu for example? Does it still apply?

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
The First Amendement applies to ALL AMERICANS, not just the Catholic Church or its congregation.

Sure ... ALL AMERICANS .. that means Catholics have a right to their first amendment rights. And how exactly are those that work in the Catholic Church outreach not being given their Constitutional rights? Answer .. they aren't being denied any. It's YOU who wants to deny the Catholics their First Amendment rights.

When USA becomes a Vatican Protectorate, then can catholics rewrite the constitution as it suits themselves.

And how has the Catholic Church rewriten the Constitution?
Answer - It hasn't. Catholics are exercising their First Amendment rights.

Till then, it is an attack upon the current Constitution of 200+ years as it stands now.

So by exercising First Amendments rights .. that somehow actually attacks the Constitution?
OOOOOOOOKAY ...

There can be no religious extremisim in any form ...

blah blah blah .... your view that Catholicism is 'extremism' is irrelevant to the discussion.

Originally posted by grey580
Within the Constitution we do not limit anyone in this country based upon that religion.
They are free to practice their religion as they wish.

If you force the Catholic church to provide free abortions and/or birth control, then you are indeed taking away their Constitutional rights. They would NOT be free to practice their religion as they wish because - as I showed earlier - their religion is VERY strict that they cannot aid anyone else in obtaining an abortion or practicing artificial birth control.

And the government should enforce that no religion may impose it's will upon others who do not share their religious views.

People have a right NOT to work in Catholic hospitals or Catholic schools.
Therefore - the Church is not imposing it's view on anyone.
Those people are free to work at the city hospital, or a doctors office, or whatever.

If you work in a Jewish deli you should expect not to serve bacon.
If you work in a Catholic hospital you should expect to find birth control elsewhere.
Common sense.

reply to post by FlyersFan

If you force the Catholic church to provide free abortions and/or birth control, then you are indeed taking away their Constitutional rights. They would NOT be free to practice their religion as they wish because - as I showed earlier - their religion is VERY strict that they cannot aid anyone else in obtaining an abortion or practicing artificial birth control.

I didn't see where it said that.
However I don't think I've ever heard of a church ever being asked to provide abortions for free.

And yes the government should not be asking the church to provide anything that's against their religion.

But it would seem there is some sort of fiscal arrangement. If the church fails to comply there could be the option by the government to withhold money from them.

Mother church is having yet another case of sour grapes. Its bad enough that you can't tell your employees how to behave on their own time, now you have to support their decision to practice birth control and other such issues as well? Horrid concept! Lets keep in mind that the church along with her sister bullies of the pulpit would have us all multiplying like rabbits in spite of rape, incest, or other violent acts. They will gladly see to the men getting drugs to assist in their erectional shortcomings, but god forbid a woman the decisions that are hers and hers alone.