Greece Default Closer Amid Warnings Of “Social Explosion”

The IMF Mafia are demanding harsh austerty from the Greek Government in return for the next 'bail out loan'

The measures are believed to include a 25 percent cut in the minimum private sector wage and a 35 percent reduction in supplementary pensions. In addition, 100 state-controlled enterprises could be closed, leading to immediate jobs losses and the sacking of 150,000 public sector workers by 2015.

Seems some Greek politicians are getting very nervous.

George Karatzaferis, the leader of the right-wing Laos party, the junior partner in the coalition, was the most explicit on the possible consequences. “I am not going to contribute to a revolution that will humiliate us and that will burn Europe,” he said.

They are saying the word 'revolution'.

The default is inevitable at some stage if you ask me. It will be domino's after that.

A default by Greece would not only reverberate throughout Europe, but could have a major impact on American banks and financial institutions which, while not heavily involved in direct loans, face large payouts on credit default swaps if bankruptcy is declared.

It seems to me that if this whole thing is by design it is very flawed. I can see it blowing up in the oligarch's faces. I think they have overplayed their hand. I think a 'social explosion' is inevitable and its going to be very difficult for the oligarchy to control.
www.wsws.org...

more links--
www.theglobeandmail.com...
www.theaustralian.com.au...
www.reuters.com...
www.irishtimes.com...

reply to post by theubermensch


Dear theubermensch,

It seems to me that if this whole thing is by design it is very flawed. I can see it blowing up in the oligarch's faces. I think they have overplayed their hand. I think a 'social explosion' is inevitable and its going to be very difficult for the oligarchy to control.

The whole thing is going to fail by design; but, whose design? I don't think the powers that be came up with the plan, they just thought it would achieve their goals. The question is who wins if Europe and the west fail? Why would you design an entire world economic system to fail? In order to replace it with a new system that would not otherwise be acceptable would be my answer. My next question, is what would a world look like that was run by the sheep? We know what it looked like when it was run by the predators.

Historically, after a revolution the people turn towards a "strong leader" and he is often very totalitarian in his approach because that is what the people want so that they can go back to sleep. Consider Mao, Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini and Castro. The people cry for stability over freedom and turn totalitarian.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by theubermensch

 

Dear theubermensch,

It seems to me that if this whole thing is by design it is very flawed. I can see it blowing up in the oligarch's faces. I think they have overplayed their hand. I think a 'social explosion' is inevitable and its going to be very difficult for the oligarchy to control.

The whole thing is going to fail by design; but, whose design? I don't think the powers that be came up with the plan, they just thought it would achieve their goals. The question is who wins if Europe and the west fail? Why would you design an entire world economic system to fail? In order to replace it with a new system that would not otherwise be acceptable would be my answer. My next question, is what would a world look like that was run by the sheep? We know what it looked like when it was run by the predators.

Historically, after a revolution the people turn towards a "strong leader" and he is often very totalitarian in his approach because that is what the people want so that they can go back to sleep. Consider Mao, Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini and Castro. The people cry for stability over freedom and turn totalitarian.

I think you are right. I just wonder if tptb can control the strong leaders that emerge.
But yeah,I agree with you.
Respect

Greece have spent well beyond their means for years and the time has come to pay the piper. Time has come for them to act responsibily and end the welfare state.

You do not run massive deficit budgets year after year then wonder why you can't pay it back. No one ever forced them to spend themselves into the red and then borrow to pay for it. Reponsible governments like Germany should not have to pay for Greeces fiscal mismanagement.

Screw the IMF, screw the bankers and screw the EU.

Greece should default and tell the banks to suck it.

Greece won't bring the collapse of the EU but it will start a chain reaction.

Next it's gonna be Italy and Portugal.

Originally posted by nightbringr
Greece have spent well beyond their means for years and the time has come to pay the piper. I have no pity for them if they default. Time has come for them to act responsibily and end the welfare state.

Tavpayer backed bonds are the real problem.
Will Americans blame poor people when the US economy collapses? Probably. But it wont be right.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Screw the IMF, screw the bankers and screw the EU.

Greece should default and tell the banks to suck it.

Greece won't bring the collapse of the EU but it will start a chain reaction.

Next it's gonna be Italy and Portugal.

edit on 6-2-2012 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)

Exactly One thing they could do is cut ties with the West and open up to Russia and China. Its only a matter of time before countries jump off the sinking Imperial ship.

reply to post by theubermensch


Dear theubermensch,

I think you are right. I just wonder if tptb can control the strong leaders that emerge. But yeah,I agree with you.

Without going into great detail, I have met some of the powers that be and they are more confused by what is going on then we are. They are also very, very scared as they don't benefit from revolutions, a new crowd comes in. They are confused because the old practices are failing and the whole system is failing. In Europe the leaders are passing "austerity" measures and then quitting because they can see the writing on the wall. Our leaders are no different than Ghadafi, they cannot imagine not being in charge and will not let go until their last dying breath. They feel entitled to being in charge and forgot that there was a responsibility that goes with it.

Very soon now we will see the collapse of all currencies (as they are so intertwined that this is inevitable).

The Federal Reserve and the Global Currency

The linked thread that I authored has a couple of links to explain how the currencies were all combined and they are not from conspiracy websites. As to whether or not this was all orchestrated, a simple question. Why did so many western nations central banks make the exact same mistakes at the same time, which led to the housing bubbles. The price of a house in the United States never effected the price of a house in Ireland before. Not only did we all have the same interest rate change; but, all these countries stopped enforcing their rules for getting mortgages. Doesn't that seem strange, housing markets have always been local based on local economic factors such as job growth and housing availability.

Originally posted by theubermensch

Originally posted by nightbringr
Greece have spent well beyond their means for years and the time has come to pay the piper. I have no pity for them if they default. Time has come for them to act responsibily and end the welfare state.

Tavpayer backed bonds are the real problem.
Will Americans blame poor people when the US economy collapses? Probably. But it wont be right.

In this case, they really are not.

Since Greece opened their books after lieing to the EU about their finances to get in, it has become grossly apparent Greece has spent so far beyond it's means it's ridiculous.

It needs to end. Austerity is the only real answer. You do realize they have to balence their books in short order, right? Even if they do abandon the euro and print their own money, their massive deficits and import based economy will never survive even a year before poverty and starvation sets in for the urban dwellers. Mass inflation caused by printing money to pay for deficits will make purchasing needed commodities on the world market prohibitively expensive.

They MUST fix their finances!

reply to post by nightbringr

You do not run massive deficit budgets year after year then wonder why you can't pay it back.

And all the fools who bought Greece bonds should lose their money, they made a bad investment.

So yeah, the welfare state is going to end, but the banks who pushed for it and made money off of it will take losses.

But what is happening now is that the big banks want to not lose money and have the Greek people as their debt slaves for the next few hundreds years. And that is unacceptable.

And let's mention that the Greek people are not responsible for the deeds of their government.

Or do you blame yourself every time the US congress borrows more money and when your kids become debt slaves?

reply to post by Vitchilo

And all the fools who bought Greece bonds should lose their money, they made a bad investment.

reply to post by AQuestion


Thanks for that hey.

There seems to be no real solution.

Edit- And yeah,everyone worries about globalization but like you say,we are all linked anyway.

Very soon now we will see the collapse of all currencies (as they are so intertwined that this is inevitable).

I agree. Its pretty scary.

Originally posted by nightbringr

Originally posted by theubermensch

Originally posted by nightbringr
Greece have spent well beyond their means for years and the time has come to pay the piper. I have no pity for them if they default. Time has come for them to act responsibily and end the welfare state.

Tavpayer backed bonds are the real problem.
Will Americans blame poor people when the US economy collapses? Probably. But it wont be right.

In this case, they really are not.

Since Greece opened their books after lieing to the EU about their finances to get in, it has become grossly apparent Greece has spent so far beyond it's means it's ridiculous.

It needs to end. Austerity is the only real answer. You do realize they have to balence their books in short order, right? Even if they do abandon the euro and print their own money, their massive deficits and import based economy will never survive even a year before poverty and starvation sets in for the urban dwellers. Mass inflation caused by printing money to pay for deficits will make purchasing needed commodities on the world market prohibitively expensive.

They MUST fix their finances!

edit on 6-2-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)

I do agree with some of what you are saying but I think the guys at the top did make bad investments like vitchilo said. They need to take more than a 'haircut'.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
And all the fools who bought Greece bonds should lose their money, they made a bad investment.

Ive got no problem with that, they gambled and lost. And in fact they are losing large portions of their investments.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
So yeah, the welfare state is going to end, but the banks who pushed for it and made money off of it will take losses.

See, not sure what you mean here. I dont believe banks ever put a gun the Greeces head and told them to borrow. Im pretty sure its Greece who accepted money, knowing very well the interest rates involved and the expectation upon them to pay it back.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
But what is happening now is that the big banks want to not lose money and have the Greek people as their debt slaves for the next few hundreds years. And that is unacceptable.

At this point, Greece needs money to pay to keep its economy afloat. Not sure what you would suggest to Greece to allow them to continue racking up massive deficit, maybe you could explain it to me? All i am suggesting is they work towards posting balanced budgets and spend responsibly. And in order to do that, they need to follow though with austerity.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
And let's mention that the Greek people are not responsible for the deeds of their government.

But even less so are the citizens of other countries now forced to pay for Greeces excess.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Or do you blame yourself every time the US congress borrows more money and when your kids become debt slaves?

Yes, i do. And for that reason, i am a part of a lobby group in my country, (which is Canada by the way, NOT the US), that pressures the government to work towards posting balanced budgets. Paying interest is throwing good money away, and deficits should only be posted in times of trouble or disaster. Fiscal responsibility is a lost art.

reply to post by theubermensch

A Greek default is closer than ever. There are signs that preparations are in full swing (as far as one can prepare for a possible contagious event).

Greek PM Papademos asked his Finance Ministry to prepare a document on the implications of a Greek default.

The tone in German media has become far stricter over the last days. The term "default" is no longer tabooed and if you listened carefully to Merkels words in France yesterday... you could hear that her patience has reached its limits.

ETA:
Also an interesting read... A Shift in European sentiment - Germany prepared to let Greece default.

reply to post by ColCurious


Hey,thanks for adding

The tone in German media has become far stricter over the last days. The term "default" is no longer tabooed and if you listened carefully to Merkels words in France yesterday... you could hear that her patience has reached its limits.

I know it sounds crazy but I think we could see Germany/France vs rest of Europe in the future.

reply to post by nightbringr

See, not sure what you mean here. I dont believe banks ever put a gun the Greeces head and told them to borrow. Im pretty sure its Greece who accepted money, knowing very well the interest rates involved and the expectation upon them to pay it back.

Goldman Sachs cooked the books of Greece so they could enter the EU. The corrupt government played along. And it's not ``Greece`` who accepted the money, it's the government. And everyone is like Greece. The US, Germany, the UK, Japan... everyone. It's just that Greece is at the ``terminal phase`` of the disease.

At this point, Greece needs money to pay to keep its economy afloat.

Pay who, what? Default on the debt. Go back to the drachma. Don't run deficits.

Not sure what you would suggest to Greece to allow them to continue racking up massive deficit, maybe you could explain it to me?

Stop deficits. Default on the whole debt. Then live within your means. If that means cutting pensions and government employees, then so be it.

All i am suggesting is they work towards posting balanced budgets and spend responsibly. And in order to do that, they need to follow though with austerity.

Totally but first they need to default on the debt.

But even less so are the citizens of other countries now forced to pay for Greeces excess.

That's because of their own government. The Germans and the French should have kicked Merkel out when she bailed out Greece, they didn't. So they lose their money. Germans should get angry about Merkel, not Greece.

Yes, i do. And for that reason, i am a part of a lobby group in my country, (which is Canada by the way, NOT the US), that pressures the government to work towards posting balanced budgets.

Awesome.

Paying interest is throwing good money away, and deficits should only be posted in times of trouble or disaster. Fiscal responsibility is a lost art.

Totally.

But what I'm saying and you probably agree, is that if your lobbying fails and the government continue their insane policy or are taken over by a banker (like Greece is) should you and your kids become debt slaves to the banks because the government sold your country? Of course not.

This is what has happened to Greece. And this is what will happen in Canada. The pension fund/health care system are unsustainable. In a decade or two, there will be something like 1 person working to support 3-4 people. Unsustainable. Well Greece is ALREADY at that point.

So we can scream about Greece all day, it's all our future.

Originally posted by theubermensch
I know it sounds crazy but I think we could see Germany/France vs rest of Europe in the future.

Yeah, I don't know about that.
The french are skeptical... we are skeptical... I'd rather see a loose economical pact (like the trade zone the EU was originally designed to be) amongst more of the stronger nations of Europe.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
reply to post by nightbringr

 

See, not sure what you mean here. I dont believe banks ever put a gun the Greeces head and told them to borrow. Im pretty sure its Greece who accepted money, knowing very well the interest rates involved and the expectation upon them to pay it back.

Goldman Sachs cooked the books of Greece so they could enter the EU. The corrupt government played along. And it's not ``Greece`` who accepted the money, it's the government. And everyone is like Greece. The US, Germany, the UK, Japan... everyone. It's just that Greece is at the ``terminal phase`` of the disease.

At this point, Greece needs money to pay to keep its economy afloat.

Pay who, what? Default on the debt. Go back to the drachma. Don't run deficits.

Not sure what you would suggest to Greece to allow them to continue racking up massive deficit, maybe you could explain it to me?

Stop deficits. Default on the whole debt. Then live within your means. If that means cutting pensions and government employees, then so be it.

All i am suggesting is they work towards posting balanced budgets and spend responsibly. And in order to do that, they need to follow though with austerity.

Totally but first they need to default on the debt.

But even less so are the citizens of other countries now forced to pay for Greeces excess.

That's because of their own government. The Germans and the French should have kicked Merkel out when she bailed out Greece, they didn't. So they lose their money. Germans should get angry about Merkel, not Greece.

Yes, i do. And for that reason, i am a part of a lobby group in my country, (which is Canada by the way, NOT the US), that pressures the government to work towards posting balanced budgets.

Awesome.

Paying interest is throwing good money away, and deficits should only be posted in times of trouble or disaster. Fiscal responsibility is a lost art.

Totally.

But what I'm saying and you probably agree, is that if your lobbying fails and the government continue their insane policy or are taken over by a banker (like Greece is) should you and your kids become debt slaves to the banks because the government sold your country? Of course not.

This is what has happened to Greece. And this is what will happen in Canada. The pension fund/health care system are unsustainable. In a decade or two, there will be something like 1 person working to support 3-4 people. Unsustainable. Well Greece is ALREADY at that point.

So we can scream about Greece all day, it's all our future.

I think Greece needs to go back to the Drachma. When they default then they won't

have to make those outrageous interest payments anymore.
---------
Then Greece must restructure everything. Don't make the same mistake again.

Start printing Drachmas and invest them wisely.

Act like adults and stop rioting in the streets.

Rioting in the streets has a way of keeping tourists - away - from Greece.

Welcome them in. Don't drive them away.