Is it cruel to feed live prey to your pet predator?

The following is a transcript from my facebook account where myself and two other people debate the topic stated in this post's title. Names have been changed for obvious reasons and the links i provide are the same ones that were provided in the original face book post. I use my profile name in ATS for the bits i wrote.

Please read through and tell me what you think.

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If I post a link from youtube on here about mouse abuse will you all help and report the link to the FBI, Interpol and Internet watch?

I advise you all not to watch the video, it will horrify you, but at the same time taking action without first seeing it is not correct. Like it or not, we must all see it before any of us can do anything. I really want to get it taken down and investigated and if it's only reported to YouTube then they won't find out who filmed it.

Will you guys please help?
Like · · Unfollow Post · 14 hours ago near #snip#, Victoria ·

2 people like this.

#1:
Now that Gaddafi, Bin laden and Kim jong il are all dead, I guess the FBI have nothing better to do!lol
14 hours ago · Unlike · 2

Susan
I have provided a document so you can copy and paste it into emails to three seperate agencies.

Websites to report animal cruelty to:

*Internet Watch - www.iwf.org.uk...
*FBI - www.ic3.gov...
*Interpol - www.interpol.int...

---------------- TEMPLATE LETTER -----------------------------

Dear Internet Policing Unit,

I would like to report animal cruelty cases found on YouTube today.

The use of live bait for Pirahna and Snapping Turtles should be prohiited, it is extreme cruelty. The mice are dropped into a tank of Pirahna and left to swim and try to get up the sides of the glass in vain until the Pirahna attack one by one. It is not a quick death and the animals must be asolutely terrified.

I call on you to track down the perpetrators, have youtube ban their IP addresses and for your agency to prosecute the persons for both animal cruelty and posting disturing and offensive online content.

Below are links to the videos of animal cruelty currently active on YouTube:

feeding piranha live baby mice
www.youtube.com...

feeding piranha a live adult mouse
www.youtube.com...

feeding piranha a live frog that stays alive horribly mutilated for ages
www.youtube.com...

feeding snapping turtle a live mouse
www.youtube.com...

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter,

Yours Faithfully,

13 hours ago · Like

Bob: Yes!!
12 hours ago · Like · 1

Susan: Thank you, Bob! :-)
11 hours ago · Like

Raivan: Is it cruel when this happens in the wild?
about an hour ago · Like

Bob: A turtle catching a mouse in the wild?-^ hahahaha seriously dude
51 minutes ago · Like · 1

Raivan: A snapping turtle eats anything that gets close enough, mouse, frog, whatever... the
snapping turtle does not give a s#^t.
43 minutes ago · Like · 1

Susan: No. The prey in the wild have a chance to survive and get away and I'm talking about domesticated mice, not wild ones. Often I think people who feed their pets live animals and post it on the internet have different motives, it's not just about feeding but more about the enjoyment of watching things suffer and exploitimg it.. I have a soft spot for mice too, I used to collect them like pokemon... And of course I understand both sides (wanting to provide your pet with the closest thing to their natural environment), but why can't people just donk mousies on the head right before feeding time! The body will still be warm and kicking due to the nerves so it woud be like it's alive!... Pirahnas don't naturally eat mice anyway... I don't know... looking at this post now seems like I went a bit over the top but it just screwed with my head watching the adult mouse get its leg ripped off and dragged around with no where to go.. Atleast a wild mouse would have had a chance in the wild.


Raivan: look, i live and let live, and some people are just sick, it's true. But this is how nature rolls, s%$t eats s#4t, it'll eat whatever it can get cause thats how s*%t works. Whatever gets eaten suffers and whatever does the eating suffers if it doesn't eat. The motives of whoever posted these vids don't mean s&#t to the critters doin the eating, all they know is that there is some food so they eat it. Hell, i often feed live insects to spiders, but only cause the spider doesn't like stuff that's already dead and i don't make video's and post them.


Raivan: And usually the spider i choose to 'Befriend' gets eaten by another spider, and you know what i do.... i feed the new spider, cause thats what spiders do, they eat s%#t.
21 minutes ago · Like

Susan: Good points! I think I just got abit caught up and emotional. I just love mousies!
20 minutes ago via mobile · Unlike · 1

Raivan: I have mice living in my house... they irritate the s%#t outta me, but i don't bait them or lay traps, i just let em go, cause I have a choice as a human, my choice is to let em go about their mousie business, but if i find one dead i'm not gonna shed a tear over it, mice die sometimes.
19 minutes ago · Like

Susan: Did you watch the vids?
18 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Raivan: Yeah i watched em... pretty brutal stuff.... but like i said.....
18 minutes ago · Like

Susan: I nearly cried.
17 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Raivan: Yeah, watching that mouse with it's missing leg was pretty sickening, lucky i'm not a pirahna, i wouldn't be a very good one.
16 minutes ago · Like · 1

Bob: I think animals shouldn't be fed anything they couldn't catch naturally in the wild
15 minutes ago · Like · 1

Raivan:
A frog and a scorpion stood on the bank of a river.. The frog was about to cross and the scorpion said "Hey frog, can i ride on your back across the river as i cannot swim" and the frog said "No scorpion, if i let you ride on my back then you will sting me and kill me" to which the scorpion replied "I promise i will not hurt you, i only want to cross the river" so the frog accepted the scorpions promise and allowed it to climb on his back. When they got halfway across the river the scorpion stung the frog and before they both died the frog asked "why did you kill me after you promised not to? now we will both die" to which the scorpion replied "i am a scorpion, I can't help it, it's what i do"
12 minutes ago · Like · 1

Raivan: And as for not eating anything it couldn't catch in the wild, do you think any of it's natural prey would have fared any better or suffered any less?
11 minutes ago · Like
Raivan: And as far as there being any difference between a domestic and wild animal, there really isn't. we are not gods with the power or right to dictate what is and isn't special or valuable as far as a life form is concerned.
6 minutes ago · Like

continued......

Bob: Suffering and pain exist everywhere in nature, Taria believes in stopping this domesticated and in my opinion immoral code of practise, cool story tho, that scorpions a real a##hole, and a dumb ass!!

Raivan: The real issue for me is keeping the animal caged up in the first place, if they didn't have them as 'pets' then they wouldn't need to recreate a natural environment complete with the hunt, however this would not mean that the 'hunt' did not take place, only that it takes place somewhere in the wild.
26 minutes ago · Like

Raivan: So in the end it's not really a question of the 'prey's' rights but rather the 'predator's'
24 minutes ago · Like


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So what do you think ATS, what are your thoughts on all of this stuff?

I got nothing against it.. but I got somehing against the sick people that get aroused seeing animals killing each other... its the same people that get aroused watching dogs mutilate each other for humans sick pleassure.

if you got a predator as a pet I prefer people feed it dead things.. the predator dont care anyway.
Same goes with my snake. I dont got the same sick high waching a mouse getting killed.

there are no excuse ! you filthy human

reply to post by Vandalour

I think it was pretty clear that i don't derive any pleasure from watching animals tear each other apart.
I feed spiders cause i think it helps em out and it has to be better then just killing the insects that i feed to them.

But... how is it really that much different to watching Attenborough narrate a lion hunting and killing a zebra (or whatever)

With some pets,such as snakes,yes because if they are fed live food then they get used to it and tend to go and attack anything that moves.............including their owners.Its not uncommon to hear about a snake owner who was killed by his pet snake because it got used to moving food.

A pet is not supposed to rely on instincts that it would have in the wild so don't open that door for it to happen because it could lead to many problems.

Some people are sick. The described videos sound like a deliberate intention to cause pain and suffering for the person's amusement and entertainment. Certainly posting said videos speaks volumes about the videographer's state of mind.

Animals eat meat, and if you have a predator as a pet then you need to get used to feeding it live critters. But piranhas don't need mice to eat. Use feeder goldfish or even raw hamburger. A mouse is not its natural prey.

Don't know if you'll get an animal cruelty case going, but I would immediately unfriendl anyone who sent me such a video.

I don't see the point in owning some kind of predator that requires you to feed it live prey to begin with.

Snakes, angry fish, scorpions, spiders ... why?
does having possession of something that kills other stuff for food and requires the killing of other stuff for food because it can't/won't eat something already dead make someone cooler, get them laid?

I've worked with wildcats; servals, caracal, lynx, bobcats and cougars, and none of these required LIVE prey. Fresh raw meat, yes, but live prey, no.
I've had opportunity to work with a whole zoo of animals; feeding alligators among them, and live prey wasn't mandatory.

I personally think there is something sickly wrong with anyone that gravitates to that kind of pet ownership.
Owning rattlesnakes, and other venomous reptiles and milking them for venom for use in the medical community is one thing, but, having something that kills other things just to have something, is just off.

i think the problem isnt in feeding live animals to pets, its having pets. caging animals and domesticating them.

well, any animal that you need to cage or it would leave is not a pet in the first place. birds and fish are really poor pets as their life as a pet is so drmatically worse than life in the wilds. parakeets are the worst example, they live in gigantic flocks and fly miles a day, and are typically kept alone in a cage. shameful. fish are just as bad, they typically live in schools or groups and swim a very large territory. domesticated dogs and cats at least will stick around if you leave the door open and a human family can substitute a pack nicely. cats are loners in the wild, and are naturally affectionate

you do enjoy the predation aspect of it or you would have a cat and feed it from a can

no sympathy from me

reply to post by Raivan31


I was in NY last year, and was disappointed to find live mice in the pet shops as bait. It's illegal here in the UK and i'm glad it is.

I understand nature, but as an animal lover I just don't like it.

Well i believe that you should never do any unessecary harm to anyone or yourself and for me this includes not allowing an animal to develop in the natural way, like lions at a zoo, they should have the freedom to hunt like they do in the wild and if this freedom cannot be provided then they should not be in a zoo.

reply to post by Raivan31

I didn't look at the videos. I won't. Even my dog could be a predator, but she gets along just fine on scraps and dog food. Yes, nature is cruel. But I don't need to bring that kind of nature into my home.
BJ

There is no reason to feed a mouse to a Piranha. The only reason to do that is because the person is getting entertainment and off on it. Thats a sadistic weirdo.

reply to post by bjrichardson


Well my dog (family dog) was, prior to joining my family and before we knew him, a pig hunting dog, apparently he was quite skilled at killing, but not very skilled at doing it the way his 'master' wanted him to.

Now he is a placid family/house dog, has never hurt anyone and travels Australia with my parents making friends everywhere he goes.

Oh and he chose to be part of our family, he wandered in out of the wilderness, literally and decided he liked my brother and just 'hung around' so we made him a part of our 'pack'.

reply to post by mnmcandiez


I agree, in principle. however if he feeds his piranha live mice simply to get the chance to watch a Piranha in action and not to derive a thrill from the pain of the mouse then how would it be any different to watching lions hunt down an animal on a nature docco?

We sit back and say oohh, ahhh as we watch a shark chase down a fish or whatever else a docco might show so how is it really that much different?

Most predatory animals such as snakes and spiders only need to eat once every week or month or couple of months (depending on the critter in question) so how would this denote a person who is sadistic if they only get to witness it once every month or so?

You see it's not a simple cut and dry issue. Sure some people are sick twisted people who get a kick from watching pain, but others are simply awed by the power and brutal but beautiful process of nature.

Is David Attenborough a sick twisted soul because he enjoys watching lions on the hunt?

I found a rather large non venomous snake in the back yard. I tried sending him on his way into the canyon a few times, but he kept coming up into the grass. My son named him "snakey". It was neat the way he curled up in a shirt pocket, and coiled around your neck for warmth. Since he was wild, I concluded that he was not nice, but in bad shape. We made a little habitat for him, kept him warm, and gave him water. After a few days, I knew he was hungry. We went to the local pet store, and got snakey some "hoppers". These are baby mice with hair. We fed them to snakey. It was truly disturbing to watch snakey dine. My son and I both decided to let snakey go the next day after we decided that we didn't want to feed him anymore lol.

Originally posted by Raivan31
Well i believe that you should never do any unessecary harm to anyone or yourself and for me this includes not allowing an animal to develop in the natural way, like lions at a zoo, they should have the freedom to hunt like they do in the wild and if this freedom cannot be provided then they should not be in a zoo.

Well, the thing about some species of lion, yes, there's lots of different kinds of lions, is that some are critically endangered such that there aren't many left in the wild and it's hugely important to establish some reclamation breeding.
In preserve situations where big cats like tigers, lions, cheetah, live in wild like conditions, they do indeed get to hunt live prey as the preserves are stocked with deer, but, the live prey isn't introduced to them inside an enclosure. the prey has an opportunity to run away and the cats have opportunity to hunt successfully, or fail.

In enclosures, like zoos, these animals, though still 'wild' are terribly domesticated. They couldn't hunt if they wanted to and don't know how. Many of these cats, though 'domesticated' are important to breeding programs for reclamation efforts, but, they can't ever be introduced back into the wild.
1. They're too domesticated and will gravitate towards human populations looking for and expecting food which can develop into very dangerous circumstances.
2. Because they don't know how to hunt, and haven't really even had the simulated wild of preserve living, they won't survive in the wild because they won't be able to feed themselves, and they'll also get 'bullied' by other cats on the playground that DO know how to hunt, establish territories, and all that other cat pecking order stuff.

I know all this from working closely with wild cats. Lots of experience there. Beautiful awesome animals.

Life feeds on life. Nature isn't all rosebuds and fluffy puppy dogs. In fact, it's mostly very cruel.
That being said, it is a bit sick to film it and derive entertainment from another life form being in agony.
I believe in hunting, but I do not wish any more suffering on the animal I kill. I try for a quick, clean kill and if I don't get it, I try to put the animal out of its misery as quickly as possible.

Originally posted by nineix
I don't see the point in owning some kind of predator that requires you to feed it live prey to begin with.

Snakes, angry fish, scorpions, spiders ... why?
does having possession of something that kills other stuff for food and requires the killing of other stuff for food because it can't/won't eat something already dead make someone cooler, get them laid?

I've worked with wildcats; servals, caracal, lynx, bobcats and cougars, and none of these required LIVE prey. Fresh raw meat, yes, but live prey, no.
I've had opportunity to work with a whole zoo of animals; feeding alligators among them, and live prey wasn't mandatory.

I personally think there is something sickly wrong with anyone that gravitates to that kind of pet ownership.
Owning rattlesnakes, and other venomous reptiles and milking them for venom for use in the medical community is one thing, but, having something that kills other things just to have something, is just off.

If you’re into owning pets then what is wrong with owning something that requires live food? Many carnivorous animals simply won't eat something unless it moves making live prey a necessity, and of course many animals require a whole carcass to get the necessary nutrients they require.

I'm a qualified snake catcher and although I don't own any reptiles at present, I can assure you that snakes when bred domesticated can make very good and responsive pets. I don't agree at all with keeping something as a pet which was originally caught in the wild, and I'm not really into keeping things like spiders, scorpions or poisonous snakes as what's the point if you can't interact with them.

I work at a mine (not as a snake catcher though) and a few guys up here own snakes as they don't require feeding to often making them perfect if you have to work away for a week or so. I do agree that many people that own these sorts of pets have some sort of image they want to uphold, but then so do people who own poodles or chihuahuas. As long as the animal is taken care of and loved that is the most important thing. But most of the time people own these kinds of pets simply because they are fascinated by that particular species. But many of these animals require live food. That is nature.

I myself learned to handle snakes because I love animals, and also so I could rescue them from people who would otherwise simply kill them with a shovel.

You think the meat you fed the wild cats with was made in a factory? No, it used to be a cow that had to wait in line in a slaughter house, listening to all the other cows getting killed before its turn came up. What of the chickens fed to the alligators? You think they were free range? Same goes for the meat fed to dogs and cats. It is probably far more humane to be killed by predatory animal for the process is not drawn out and the animal does not have to wait for hours in a place of death like a slaughter house. Mice bred for live food are probably far more humanely kept than cows in a slaughter house or chickens in a battery farm.

I do totally disagree with people who own these sorts of pets simply because they like to see other animals get ripped apart, but I would definitely say these people are in the minority.

reply to post by nineix


If they are endangered and they can no longer survive in the wild, isn't the only reason to keep them alive a human one, a reason that has nothing to do with the rest of the natural world?

This is something i don't understand about us humans, I for one hate to hear about a species becoming endangered/extinct it's horrible and my desire is to prevent it but my gut also screams that it is counter-productive and somewhat selfish to stop a natural process from occurring, regardless of the cause, Humans often seem to think that if we are the main cause of an animals demise then it is somehow not natural, like we are not a part of this earths closed system, when the reality is that we very much are, we are the apex predator.

This is why i often have mixed feelings about these things, caught between reality and ideology.