Exodus 15 Prophetic Song of Moses

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Jesus said the tribulation would be a time of trouble that the world had ever seen or would ever see again.

You added the last part in yourself. Ever seen up to that time, would be a good description of what happened to Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. You are just making up the part about, "ever again".

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Yeah, it pretty much does but . . .

That's what I am asking.
Can you cite some sort of scholarship which gives an interpretation of Isaiah 63 that sounds even similar to what you are claiming. If not, it must be just some sort of day-dream of yours and completely meaningless.
Or the product of a fraudulent preacher who is universally rejected by real biblical scholars.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

You have none!

I does not require much to see you all are delusional cult members who parrot things you don't understand. If you did, you would be able to explain it.
It's not anything to do with pride but simple observation.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Jesus said the tribulation would be a time of trouble that the world had ever seen or would ever see again.

You added the last part in yourself. Ever seen up to that time, would be a good description of what happened to Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. You are just making up the part about, "ever again".

No, I am not "making up" the Olivet Discourse. lmao


Matthew 24:21 (Jesus speaking)


ESV

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be."

NASB

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."

With 50+ million people dying in WW2 it's safe to say the "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus Himself hasn't happened yet. Unless of course 60+ million people died in 70 A.D.

Sorry.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Ok, then you can read it that way, with "ever again" so I was wrong about saying you just made that up.
But still you are wrong because it does not mean the number of people who die, it says the likes of, or the sort of, or the manner of.
It is not about the quantity, but the quality.
Think about all the anguish in the aftermath of the destruction of the temple, and even the name, Wailing Wall, brings up visions of people so many centuries later still crying about it.

According to Jewish Law, one is obligated to grieve and rend one's garment upon visiting the Western Wall and seeing the desolate site of the Temple.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by jmdewey60

But still you are wrong because it does not mean the number of people who die, it says the likes of, or the sort of, or the manner of.

No, it does not JM, Jesus also says that if those days aren't shortened then "no flesh be saved". That was impossible up until about 40 years ago. That verse made no sense to people until about the late 60s, the world couldn't wipe itself out with swords, cannons, muskets. Now there is enough nuclear weapons to destroy "all flesh" in a matter of days.

Preterism died out for the most part after WW1 and WW2, you didn't get the memo?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, it does not JM . . .

The Greek word is, hoios, the definition is: what sort of, what manner of, such as.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No, it does not JM . . .

The Greek word is, hoios, the definition is: what sort of, what manner of, such as.

Irrelevant, the holocaust made the siege in 70 AD look like a school fight. Meaning, per Christ's own words, we haven't been through the tribulation yet. If you want a "marker", the only country not yet fully aligned for God-Magog of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is Turkey.

Forget Preterism, it was dealt it's deathblow after WW1 and especially after WW2.

I figured out my earlier mistake on that verse ending.
I was thinking of the older prophecy that the one in Mathew seems to be a retelling of.
Daniel 12:1
“At that time Michael,
the great prince who watches over your people,
will arise.
There will be a time of distress
unlike any other from the nation’s beginning
up to that time.
But at that time your own people,
all those whose names are found written in the book,
will escape

reply to post by jmdewey60


Point noted JM. But it still doesn't negate what Christ prophesied, that the tribulation would be a time of trouble that they had never seen until that time, and would never see again. The 20th century has shown us painfully that we have not yet endured the Great Tribulation. The holocaust took one out of every three Jews. Some OT passages indicate the Great Tribulation will take 2 out of every 3 Jews, as well as half the world's population.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Point noted JM. But it still doesn't negate what Christ prophesied, that the tribulation would be a time of trouble that they had never seen until that time, and would never see again. The 20th century has shown us painfully that we have not yet endured the Great Tribulation. The holocaust took one out of every three Jews. Some OT passages indicate the Great Tribulation will take 2 out of every 3 Jews, as well as half the world's population.

*cough* Isaiah 63 *cough*

Second line.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Jesus said the tribulation would be a time of trouble that the world had ever seen or would ever see again.

You added the last part in yourself. Ever seen up to that time, would be a good description of what happened to Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. You are just making up the part about, "ever again".

Matthew 24, JM read Matthew 24. Jesus did indeed say that very thing.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Thanks for that. I couldn't remember myself if it was Zechariah, Ezekiel, or Isaiah.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Thanks for that. I couldn't remember myself if it was Zechariah, Ezekiel, or Isaiah.

Read Isaiah 63:1-6

Then read Revelation 14:17-20

The river of blood up to a horse bridle extends for appx. 180 miles which just so happens to be the same distance from outside the city of Jerusalem to Busirah (Bozrah) where Jesus appears in Isaiah 63 and "tramples the wine press" alone without his armies. His first appearance in his second coming happens at Busirah which is in modern day Edom.

Interesting yeah?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Interesting yeah?

Quite. It never ceases to amaze me with the precision and the integration of the Word of God. And what also strikes me as awe inspiring is how every heresy that would enter the church from Pentecost to today is addressed somewhere in the Bible. Example, the "scholars" who think there were two different Isaiah's who wrote the book of Isaiah. In John 12:37-41, Jesus quotes from Isaiah 53 and Isaiah 6, then tucked away in verse 39 is this:

"because that Esaias said again".


Jesus just did us a MASSIVE favor there. He saved us countless hours wading through different "scholars" opinions and nonsense about there being two different Isaiahs, and He tells us that "That Esaias" wrote both Isaiah chapters 53 and 6.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Irrelevant

You just said it is irrelevant, what the word in the verse is.

, the holocaust made the siege in 70 AD look like a school fight.

Not if you consider the death toll in Jerusalem as a percentage of the world's population. Back then there were not so many people and cities were not that big. Antioch was one of the largest cities in the Roman Empire at the time, and was the capital of Syria, but the population is estimated at between 150 and 200 thousand people at the time of the Roman/Jewish wars. Estimates for the people killed with the fall of Jerusalem go as high as a million people, so this would be like a nuclear attack taking out NYC and part of New Jersey today. Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not even be a good comparison. WW II did not see London completely obliterated, nor Berlin, and Stalingrad was never completely destroyed. As for the Holocaust, those numbers are completely contrived and the number to be used to describe it was established years before WW II even started, because they (the Zionists) tried it after WW I, saying there were six million Jews killed in that war but no one was buying it so they dropped it, to be resurrected after the next war, where they could enforce sanctions on anyone who ridiculed the number.

Meaning, per Christ's own words, we haven't been through the tribulation yet.

Back to Mathew 24, why would Jesus say, "or ever will happen." if this tribulation marked the end of the world. There would obviously be other tribulations that happen afterwards to be compared to the particular one Jesus was describing.

If you want a "marker", the only country not yet fully aligned for God-Magog of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is Turkey.

I don't see a mention of God and Magog in Mathew.

Forget Preterism, it was dealt it's deathblow after WW1 and especially after WW2.

I would say that, instead, there was a greater impetus to promote the Dispensationalist version of eschatology,after WW II, since then there was this so-called "state" of Israel which needed support from America to continue to exist, so what better way than to promote a religion that says Jerusalem has to be restored to its former glory under the Jews, before the Christians can go to heaven.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The 20th century has shown us painfully that we have not yet endured the Great Tribulation. The holocaust took one out of every three Jews. Some OT passages indicate the Great Tribulation will take 2 out of every 3 Jews, as well as half the world's population.

What "the Great Tribulation"?
One "the Great Tribulation" is one where people are seen by John the Revelator having gone through it, showing up in heaven, and there are people spoken of as having been killed in a Great Tribulation.
The Great Tribulation Jesus was talking about is unique in what sort of tribulation it is, and the word translated from the Greek as tribulation can also be translated as, sorrows, or as, suffering. Having some Jews in Germany and Poland killed is rather par for the course as the sort of thing that happened to Jews since 70 AD, which was the singular event which lowered their prestige in order to be treated so meanly ever afterwards.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Isaiah 58

1 “Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.
2 For day after day they seek me out;
they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?’
“Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.
4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the LORD?

6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.

“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
11 The LORD will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail.
12 Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins
and will raise up the age-old foundations;
you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls,
Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.

13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the LORD’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the LORD,
and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken

--------------------------------------

I tell you, every chapter in Isaiah I read it's almost like Jesus is reaching out to speak through Isaiah to us today. This is but one of the many chapters that can fit both jews and christians alike today that live in rebellion. If the old testament was just a foreshadowing of things still to come, then this chapter and all the others like it still apply to us today. When i read these chapters i can swear it's like i'm actually hearing Jesus talk. It's simply amazing and is one of the reasons i love the book of Isaiah so much.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


In fact this goes with what the Lord is talking about in Isaiah 58:

Matthew 12:1-8

1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

---------------------------------------------------------------

As we can see, the Lord desires for us to show mercy and compassion rather than sacrifice. This compassion and mercy goes hand in hand with what he says in Isaiah 58. This is how you love your neighbor and your enemy. I can't believe people think the Old Testament doesn't still apply when Jesus makes it painfully obvious (to me at least) that the old laws still apply. Truly he didn't abolish them, what he meant by saying he fulfilled them was he has made them manifested. The King has spoken. I hear him and am held in awe.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Forget Preterism, it was dealt it's deathblow . . .

I got a book in the mail today that is one of the nine I ordered for this month's reading materials, titled: A case for Historic Premillennialism. There is an essay in it by Timothy T. Weber on the history of the different eschatological views over history. I want to quote something he says: "Most modern scholars choose between a preterist and an idealist reading of revelation."