Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

Originally posted by daskakik


You're thinking on a single axis but real world politics is more like a cartesian graph. Not sure if you have seen this before. Left/right is economics (centralized/free market). Up/down is authority (totalitarian/liberal).

First of, that is a completely made up system...

Originally posted by daskakik
When viewed in this way you can see how both capitalism can exist in totalitarian governments, and socialism can be free of government. If you can't, then it's because your life experience has closed your mind. This is probably the reason that, no matter what you are shown, you refuse to accept it.

Second of all... THERE CAN'T BE A FREE MARKET IN A TOTALITARIAN STATE...

The only ones with a completely closed mind are people like you.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that FREE MARKETS don't go with TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENTS?...

Seriously, every time I have to respond to leftwingers like yourself it seems that I am talking to a wall, or to a toddler that doesn't understand one word he/she is being told...

In a TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENT there CAN'T be anything FREE...much less a free market...

The only way a free market can exist in a TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENT, is if that market is a black market... As in an illegal market like what has been happening in Cuba that people have to resort to the black market, which is not being controlled by the communist regime, and which is why they have increased all taxes and tariffs on all products including food and medicine so that they can get rid of that BLACK MARKET...

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

www.nationmaster.com...

Nice try, but perhaps you don't understand that many countries execute people for lesser offenses that in the United States does not happen.

For example, in China you would be executed if you have enough of any drug that can be considered for more than personal use.

In China they still execute you "if you are too democratic" if you belong to certain religions, and if you evade taxes...

China executes more people yearly than all other countries combined, as an example...

This is why there are less prisoners in China...

In countries like Iran you can be executed for being gay, among other reasons, and in other Islamic nations women, and girls can be executed if they are raped but the rapist claims that the girl/woman came up to him and if two other men backup the claims of the rapist...

You see, this is another example that shows how leftwingers really have no idea in what world they are living in.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Seriously, every time I have to respond to leftwingers like yourself it seems that I am talking to a wall, or to a toddler that doesn't understand one word he/she is being told...

This is too funny. I'm actually pretty apolitical. I just hate it when close minded people can't get past their biases to see things as they really are. Made up system, as if left and right isn't a made up system.

I could care less if someplace calls itself right, left, totalitarian or liberal, but to me denying ignorance is about understanding what those things really mean. You just want to continue feeding the hate that you have because your fellow countrymen chose something you didn't want. I believe this would be an example, and broadens, skyfloating's "infantilism".

I see that you believe it is your way or nothing. Well, your wrong and you've proven it by posting:

In a TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENT there CAN'T be anything FREE...much less a free market...

The only way a free market can exist in a TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENT, is if that market is a black market... As in an illegal market like what has been happening in Cuba that people have to resort to the black market.

Talk about a flip-flop.

Originally posted by daskakik

This is too funny. I'm actually pretty apolitical. I just hate it when close minded people can't get past their biases to see things as they really are. Made up system, as if left and right isn't a made up system.

Apolitical, you? really?...

Originally posted by daskakik
I could care less if someplace calls itself right, left, up or down, but to me denying ignorance is about understanding what those things really mean. You just want to continue feeding the hate that you have because your fellow countrymen chose something you didn't want. I believe skyfloating called that "infantilism".

My countrymen chose it?... really?... this socialist/communist system hasn't been imposed on Cubans for decades right?...

You know daskakik, you are probably right.. All those Cubans who died at sea trying to escape the dictatorship of Cuba were just out for a stroll at sea... in made up boats which could be inflatable tires, or whatever they could find that could float...

Heck all those Cuban people that died being eaten by sharks, or drowned trying to escape the island were just willing participants... right daskakik?...

It's not like who knows how many millions of Cubans have been able to escape the communist dictatorship YOU claim they accepted... right daskakik?...

As far as we know there are over 1-2 million Cubans who escaped the communist dictatorship in South Florida.
Who knows how many more live in other states in the U.S. or other countries, and there are quite a few.

daskakik, do not mention "infant" and make stupid claims like the ones you are making in this thread, more so when you obviously have no idea of what the heck you are talking about...

Originally posted by daskakik
I see that you believe it is your way or nothing. Well your wrong.

You know what..you are right a FREE MARKET exists in TOTALITARIAN STATES...

You know, anyone can also be FREE in a TOTALITARIAN STATE, right daskakik?...

Heck, EVERYONE is FREE in a TOTALITARIAN STATE... or so daskakik seems to believe...

In order for a FREE MARKET to exist people have to be FREE... I guess that's the definition of TOTALITARIAN STATE according to daskakik...

I definitely do not want whatever you are on...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Apolitical, you? really?...

Find one post in this thread where I said one system is better than another.

My countrymen chose it?... really?... this socialist/communist system hasn't been imposed on Cubans for decades right?...

You know daskakik, you are probably right.. All those Cubans who died at sea trying to escape the dictatorship of Cuba were just out for a stroll at sea... in made up boats which could be inflatable tires, or whatever they could find that could float...

Heck all those Cuban people that died being eaten by sharks, or drowned trying to escape the island were just willing participants... right daskakik?...

Loyalist died in opposition to the founding of the US. I guess you could say that they were not willing participants either, but it's still the popular view that the colonials chose to throw off the shackles of the crown.

You know what..you are right a FREE MARKET exists in TOTALITARIAN STATES...

You know, anyone can also be FREE in a TOTALITARIAN STATE, right daskakik?...

Heck, EVERYONE is FREE in a TOTALITARIAN STATE... or so daskakik seems to believe...

It has nothing to do with what I believe but what really is.

Originally posted by daskakik

Talk about a flip-flop.

edit on 5-2-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)

Yeah, according to daskakik a BLACK MARKET is a completely FREE MARKET...right daskakik?...

People don't have to HIDE in a BLACK MARKET what they are doing, and if they are caught they are not sent to PRISON...right daskakik?...

Talk about stupid...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

The only way a free market can exist in a TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENT, is if that market is a black market.

Your words, not mine.

And these people don't seem to be hiding or in fear of going to prison.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

www.nationmaster.com...

Nice try, but perhaps you don't understand that many countries execute people for lesser offenses that in the United States does not happen.

For example, in China you would be executed if you have enough of any drug that can be considered for more than personal use.

In China they still execute you "if you are too democratic" if you belong to certain religions, and if you evade taxes...

China executes more people yearly than all other countries combined, as an example...

This is why there are less prisoners in China...

In countries like Iran you can be executed for being gay, among other reasons, and in other Islamic nations women, and girls can be executed if they are raped but the rapist claims that the girl/woman came up to him and if two other men backup the claims of the rapist...

You see, this is another example that shows how leftwingers really have no idea in what world they are living in.

edit on 4-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

From what I recall when I lived there (unless the laws have changed) possession is not in itself an ordinarily prosecuted crime. I'm not even sure if possession of narcotics for personal use is itself actually a crime. Most people I went to school with thought this was awesome and took loads of drugs, as a result...

Originally posted by daskakik

Loyalist died in opposition to the founding of the US. I guess you could say that they were not willing participants either, but it's still the popular view that the colonials chose to throw off the shackles of the crown.

Riiiight... and there are criminals who have also died at the hands of the police... AND WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?...

Loyalists to dictators have also died fighting against those they oppressed... But according to daskakik, those "loyalists to dictators" who died trying to stop people from escaping, are/were the same as unarmed people trying to escape totalitarian nations...

According to daskakik, all those Jewish, and other minorities who were able to escape the Nazi regime, are/were the same as the German soldiers who died trying to keep the Nazi regime in power...

Look, if you don't have anything intelligent to write, don't write anything please.

I don't know whether I should pity your ignorance, or just laugh at such.... let me not say it...

Originally posted by daskakik
It has nothing to do with what I believe but what really is.

What really is, and what you think are completely the oposite.

You should stop it because so far you are only making a fool of yourself.

Originally posted by duality90

From what I recall when I lived there (unless the laws have changed) possession is not in itself an ordinarily prosecuted crime. I'm not even sure if possession of narcotics for personal use is itself actually a crime. Most people I went to school with thought this was awesome and took loads of drugs, as a result...

Did you not read the part where I said if it can be considered for more than personal use?...

If you are caught with several ounces of any drug in China you can be certain that it won't be considered for personal use...

As for "people taking loads of drugs" in China?... I am very sure a majority of people in China are more concerned with other things, and not with drugs...

After all, it is a known fact that working conditions for the majority of Chinese sucks...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
AND WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?...

You seem to have brought up the people who have escaped Cuba as proof that Cubans were not behind the revolution. Both were Cuban. Simple as that.

What really is, and what you think are completely the oposite.

You should stop it because so far you are only making a fool of yourself.

Your the one posting things and then trying to pass them off as my words. That pic shows who is the one making exaggerated claims.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Look lady. There are a few reasons I am tired of talking to you. At first you are extremely rude and insidious, and you continue to be so even though we all treat with you respect. You are an ungrateful. This discussion does not need to held in this way. If you cannot maintain a distinction between discussing idea's and personal attacks then you're not worth any attention.

Secondly, well, that was the main reason.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


My parents lived under a communist regime.
It is EXACTLY as you described.
Communism, socialism, it has been tried.
Countless family members imprisoned because of individual though.
Countless members unable to educate themselves further because the state denied them the opportunity. Yep, that state decides that also.
IT WAS SOCIALIST, communist.
AS the first step is the dictatorship of the proletariat, then workers heaven after cleansing.
It is a self admitted dictatorship as first step.
Shops are empty, minds are numb.
These people are so arrogant they don't even understand their OWN DOGMA, their OWN THEORY and POLITICAL SYSTEM.
They use the COMMIE definition of capitalism, and fail to realize, that its just free trade, it is not a juxtaposition to communism.
I suggest you let this thread wallow, no use in trying to debate with idiots, or trolls.
Let them steep in their arrogance.

want to see a communist system without dictatorship of the proletariat, a jump to workers heaven. read book, read the khmer rouge. idiots, just plain unintellectual idiots.
i don't care if my post is removed, i stand by my opinion.

reply to post by ImaFungi


I've been reading this site for years... this thread p*ssed me off enough to create an account. You linked me the NWO conspiracies, general conspiracies and government projects. While I find this slightly offensive for an ATS user to do to another, I can see where there is probably a way to see when I joined and you find this confusing. Don't delude yourself, I am well versed in the NWO agenda and know a great deal about most of the top general conspiracies and government projects. I've read the threads, done my own Internet research, read books and seen the TV shows.

I don't know where you get off trying to tell me to try the real world on for size. The common link between all of these conspiracies is that people are trying to control you, i.e. take your Freedom as a human away. That's why they are so scary and that's why they you get angry when you read them.

And still, you tell me you wish to give control of some of the more intimate aspects of human life to a government structure to make sure everything is fair? The dream of the NWO is world-wide socialism incarnate at best, although it will likely result in despotic communism and eugenics. This is where socialism leads, not to a society that is any more fair but to a society that is completely unfair towards its citizens. Sociopathic individuals lead to the downfall of every economic system derived from an ideology, socialism gives them a nearly clear path to absolute power. This has been the case throughout History, your dream of an ideal socialist society would last more than a few generations before such a despot claimed this power. That is why socialism is so scary, to say nothing of how unfair it is to those who work harder.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
it's not the economics that is going haywire, it's the political system that needs changing

our federal gov't is on a payroll, and it's not ours

THAT is the problem

they bend the rules to their own advantage, then change them when they need to.

sickening

Finally someone cuts to heart of the problem. Anyone who thinks socialism needs to be tried in America doesn't realize Free Markets don't exist anymore because of the problems in the Federal Government that refuses to stick to the founding documents.

reply to post by ProgressiveSlayer


everyone has been saying that, including me.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
Hey Skyfloating, what "mistake" did I make about Norway...that they have socialized health care and welfare? Or that they are rich, so they can afford social programs..

You gave Norway as an example of a socialist country that looks great (compared to North Korea) as if Norway looking great had to do with socialism. I showed you that Norways wealth is not due to socialism it is due to the exporting of Billions of Barells of oil while having a population of only 5 Million. In other words, Norways wealth is due to Business, not socialism.

The "Norway card" is pulled in almost all threads on socialism with socialists claiming that Norway is well-off because of Socialism.

Instead of acknowledging this and saying you were mistaken, you then moved the goalposts to other countries. This is how socialists argue. They throw out counter-factual slogans and when these are debunked, they ignore it and move on to other slogans. This thread is a most excellent demonstration of that.

Despite having learned the facts about Norway I am quite sure I am going to see the "Norway card" played by you and others in plenty of other threads.

Norway is not a socialist country, it is social democrat. Its wealth is gained by selling huge amounts of oil while having very low population. Sweden, Denmark and Finland are not socialist either. Many of them have had right-center Governments in the 2000s and up to this day.

The reason Socialists keep referring to Scandinavia as "socialist" is because all actually socialist countries have collapsed, been involved in genocide and mass-starvation. Thats not good advertisement for socialism so they try to change the names of it ("Resource based Economy") or pretend that Scandinavia is living the marxist dream.

You're only half-right.

Whenever I've seen Scandinavia/Germany brought up as viable examples of Socialism (as I have myself), it's largely been with the knowledge that they are SOCIAL DEMOCRACIES which practice a unique combination of Socialism and Capitalist economies.

The DIFFERENCE, however, is that they provide ample social programs for their population and with great results/satisfaction/quality of life. Yes they are rich countries, but that is beside the point... the points being made against Socialism is that it is somehow, magically, inherently totalitarian and/or economically unsustainable. Countries like Germany or Scandinavian countries prove that you can provide Socialism in the form of social welfare/benefits and still be the freest, most prosperous, and most stable countries on the planet.

The Norway card is absolutely valid. They certainly DON'T practice right-wing ideologies outside of fiscal responsibility and entertaining mixed Capitalist economies. Their "center-right" parties are still probably far-left compared to American Republicans, and haven't dared threaten these social programs or the liberal nature of these societies for the most part. Most of the push for these right-wing influences have stemmed from anti-immigrant sentiments and not a desire to do away with social programs.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by theubermensch

Norway is well off because it has resources. Not because of 'business'.

So its the resources then? Wouldnt that mean any African nation would have to be richer than Norway?

Of course not. You have to make use of and sell the resources. Business means that Norway actually SELLS their oil to other countries.

edit on 3-2-2012 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

Yeah and Norway ALSO wasn't raped, pillaged, colonized and abandoned as much as Africa has been.

BUSINESS, for the West, has been all about exploiting Africa (and places like it) for resources... claiming ownership and conning the natives out of their own land. But according to Capitalism, all's fair in money and free markets.

Originally posted by BBalazs
reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

 

i do not accept your commie, socialist definition of capitalism.
history has tried communism, it didn't work.
there is no workers paradise.
take a pill, and get over it.

History has tried capitalism, it also doesn't work.
There is no market paradise.
Keep the bottle open when you need to forget this.

reply to post by NoHierarchy


state sponsored elitist, cooperation based capitalism doesn't work well.
there is no perfect system.
but communism, is far from even being a coherent system. it is pipe dream.
you are confusion ideology with a system of trade.