My Criticisms of The Morality of Jesus: Who Can spot MMM?

OP, with your original post, you created a strawman that is far from being a correct representation of Jesus Christ and then went on setting that strawman on fire. You need to actually give some examples of the morals that he taught and fully explain why they do not apply universally if you want to accomplish anything with this thread.

The moral that Jesus taught do apply universally. How can you say that that the sermons he gave do not have universal application. He was a man who stated that, Gentile or Jew, we are all God's children and have a chance for redemption, whereas, the "chosen people" from whom he hailed, traditionally believe that goyim are the filth of the earth that are only there to be exploited.

reply to post by borntowatch

you made the silly statement, how about you justify it
the new testament makes your whole statement look like a child of ignorance

My earlier post is pretty much self-explanatory and is based off whats there in the new testament.
If you think it's not then show me why... using references from the NT.

Just saying "its silly" doesnt refute anything I said.

reply to post by michaelsherlock

One must take the bible as a whole. We can cherry pick verses all day, and twist it into our own perspective all we want, but it doesn't make our view any less erroneous.

My first general criticism of the morality of Jesus is, that it lacks universality.

Jesus was sent to Israel because that's who God made his covenant with. In order for the new covenant to be put in place, the old covenant had to be fulfilled. And in order for the gentiles to be a part of the new covenant, the old covenant had to be satisfied.

In his life time, he said, "Go not into the cities and towns of the Gentiles." If he said, "Go not, to the Gentiles!" when he was living, the "Go to the Gentiles," after his death, has all the ear-marks of an interpolation. The two statements squarely contradict each other. Granting that Jesus knew what he was talking about, he could not have given both commandments. Moreover, from the conduct of the apostles who refused to go to the Gentiles until Paul came about, who had never seen or heard Jesus, it may be concluded that Jesus did not change his mind to the very last on the matter of his being sent "only for the lost children of the House of Israel."

Until his death, and subsequent satisfaction of the requirements of the law, and the covenant made with Abraham, and later Israel, Christ could not send them to the gentiles. However, more than once Jesus eluded to the fact that the gentiles had not been forgotten. And the old testament hints at a saviour for all mankind.

There are a number of christians on here who would be more than willing to go into detail with you on this, but I am not inclined to do so. It's way too in-depth. But in short, if you understand the old and new covenants, you'll understand why Christ was sent to Israel first and foremost.

And why his "morals" seem to have an underlying and slanted motive.

Interesting thread. And good questions to ask.

Dear OP,

Do not embrace ignorance.

It would be impossible to discuss or even debate on a topic if you have practically no idea on what you are talking about, as evident from your post.

Therefore, all I can do, with utmost sincerity, is for you to read up the historical chronicles of the hebrew's 2 testaments book, and cross reference with other written historical records of what happened in each era in those areas before you come to a conclusion on your beliefs, or the lack of it.

At the same time, if you can, find out about the historical chronicles of other nations of the world as well, so that you may fully comprehend the culture, their roots, reasons why those or certain people did what they did in each era, and then and only then, will you be able to find the truth and comprehend why our common Creator and biblical prophets, and the Messiah did and say what they had to, and not be taken out of context.

You cannot assume an air of 21st century superiority, this age of progress from centuries of moral civilisation culturing, often paid in blood by many of our ancestors, and then render judgement of those teachers of mankind, based upon current mores. Our ancestors and teachers lived in far far more brutal time than today.

I would love to help you, but it would only be spoonfeeding, and might not even be appreciated. Thus my recomendation that you seek for the truth on your own, using the time proven path of reading up records and cross referencing, so that you may cherish it, as usually, own efforts are much more treasured.

Even if you are an atheist, it would not hurt to know truths and realities. You may wish to discount the 2012 hype and fears, but you cannot hide from the realities of our current world - economic disorder, political ineptitude, geological change, threats to human life in various forms, etc, and not seek to see the directions it is heading and what solutions may there be to turn it all around.

Good luck.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by borntowatch

 

you made the silly statement, how about you justify it
the new testament makes your whole statement look like a child of ignorance

My earlier post is pretty much self-explanatory and is based off whats there in the new testament.
If you think it's not then show me why... using references from the NT.

Just saying "its silly" doesnt refute anything I said.

edit on 1-2-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

it may be self explanatory but its based on lies and crap. I am not going to refute ignorance, you have nothing.

I recommend you study Saul of Tarsus, then read his "Road to Damascus incident"
Finaly read the book of Romans. A book Saul wrote to the Gentiles.
Ignorance maybe bliss but its not an excuse for complete folly

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by michaelsherlock

 

Jesus was part of a prophetic tradition. He was not sent to start a whole new religon, but rather to revive and restore the Abrahamic monotheism among the Israelites.

Yes, he was sent mainly to the Israelites, but the submission to God alone that he preached was a message that the whole world can relate to.

IS THIS THE POST WITH ALL YOUR EVIDENCE. Its the only other post you have in the thread??
Seems a little light on for evidence
Actually it doesnt have any evidence in it at all.
I might just leave you to your delusions, seems they are overtaking you.

reply to post by borntowatch

it may be self explanatory but its based on lies and crap. I am not going to refute ignorance, you have nothing.

I recommend you study Saul of Tarsus, then read his "Road to Damascus incident"
Finaly read the book of Romans. A book Saul wrote to the Gentiles.
Ignorance maybe bliss but its not an excuse for complete folly

Oh, looks like you follow Paul instead of following Jesus. No wonder, what I said about Jesus earlier sailed over head. I should have known.

The only "lies and crap" you've known are the words of Paul...the one who the bible itself reveals to be a false apostle. You can call yourself a "christian" all you want, but you are deluding yourself.

Originally posted by mandroids
Don’t you agree that the 10 commandments seem like sound advice?

No, I don't.

It's ludicrous to assume that the 10 Commandments are humanity's first introduction to ethics and morality. The whole story of the tablets seems more like a frustrated leader's rant against people who would question his supreme authority and were restlessly longing for a 'home."

The 10 Commandments are not practical for today's society and have no place in legislation, let alone being displayed in a courthouse. They are, ultimately, reason for duplicity and hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is the state of pretending to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually have.

And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Total Rant! What a bunch of rubbish. All this does is promote ignorance, intolerance and division.

This wording depicts a irrational and vengeful deity who has to use force and threats to keep his captive congregation in line.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

WooHoo! Everybody gets a day off, except life doesn't take a day off. "Snip" happens, even on the Sabbath, babies are born, people fall ill, acts of nature that require attention And oh, don't go and have some fun on your day off. Just sit and ponder God, all day, don't enjoy the bounty of life, don't even eat!

What kind of "good advice" is this?

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

Why is this commandment even needed? Oh, I guess when cultures force marriage or slavery on their children, a law to not talk back or question is needed.

Perhaps the Israelites' youth were becoming skeptical of Moses' preaching and grew weary and anxious about their's and their children's future.

In our society, our courthouses are occupied by representatives that seek to remove children from their families for cause. Children are encouraged to report certain parental behavior to authorities, such as physical abuse, drug use or molestation. The above commandment gives parent unchecked authority over another human being. Do you think child molestation and abuse never happened in Moses' desert? Where does the 10 Commandments protect children?

You shall not murder.

Unless God or country command you to. Murderers are glorified in the bible and made heroes in our culture. When Europeans came to the Americas they saw the natives as dirty heathens that deserved to be killed. The native American perceived the white man to be immoral barbarians with no respect for nature.

These same dynamics of cultural clash were taking place in Moses' dessert and god condoned war, theft, rape, slavery and murder against perceived enemies.

You shall not commit adultery.

Why not? If 2 consenting adults want to "bing bada boom" why should god care? There are anthapolical studies of societies wherein the children belong to the tribe and everyone takes responibilty according to ability. Women aren't "owned" by one man, but belong to the tribe and may give birth to multiple partners children. I don't see this as immoral, but culturally workable. We could learn positive lessons from such ethics and morality.

Cont....

You shall not steal.

I can give no credence to a deity that enforces property rights on previously unowned or stolen property. Here's a different perspective on "Thou Shall Not Steal."

"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." --Ancient Indian Proverb

"The American Indian is of the soil, whether it be the region of forests, plains, pueblos, or mesas. He fits into the landscape, for the hand that fashioned the continent also fashioned the man for his surroundings. He once grew as naturally as the wild sunflowers, he belongs just as the buffalo belonged..." --Luther Standing Bear

"What is this you call property? It cannot be the earth, for the land is our mother, nourishing all her children, beasts, birds, fish and all men. The woods, the streams, everything on it belongs to everybody and is for the use of all. How can one man say it belongs only to him?" -Massasoit

"One does not sell the land people walk on." --Crazy Horse

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Okay, but are you going to tell me that this is the first time anyone ever proposed that lying was wrong? Why would someone lie about their neighbor? Personal gain.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

See above argument on property rights. America is driven by a "keep up with the Jones" mentality. Yearning for more comforts that you see other have is not a sin. Striving to better oneself materially is natural and those who "have" set a positive example to those who "have not."

reply to post by michaelsherlock


But how much more universal can you get than:

"Love God, and love your fellow man (humans)?

He said the whole of the law rests on these two commandments.

reply to post by windword


Dear Winword.

I know your pain, but know not what had CAUSED that deep chasm of irrationality from you, based upon your attack and rant upon the 10 Commandments.

Probably no words from the insignificant nobody me can ever heal that rift and historical misconceptions you have, as well as how a civilised society can prosper and progress into the future, of which what 'religion' as taught by our common Creator, and divine teachers sent, across our world had tried to do, without imposition, but only free will based.

Misinterpretations are common, for we are only flawed humans, but as we progressed into the 21st century , we had seen the truths of such workable solutions as a means for progress is truly evident.

From your passionate (anger) rant, of which gives you strength but not rationality or logic, one can see that you are an atheist, raging and disparaging against a supreme being that you don't even believe in the first place. I have no wish to convert you, nor anyone else would wish to, for faith is a personal issue upon free will.

It will have to come from your own free will to seek for the truth, a reality which you will have to confront when you begin to think of others in your society instead of just yourself, for we longer live alone on islands or in the jungle/caves.

But I believed that you are a societal law abidding citizen, following secular laws of which much came from 'religion' which is nothing more than progressive civilisational teachings over time so that we each may live in peace.

I only wish you all the best and may you truly seek for the truth, and not others opinions, on your own free will and repel ignorances.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Dear Seeker,

You are wrong in assuming that I am an atheist. I am not. I don't however believe that the God of the Old Testament is indeed "The Supreme Being," nor is he worthy of worship. He is not the creator, but an impostor.

This deity that the bible describes is a despicable personality that inspires fear, not love, force not loyalty, threats not rewards

I do believe in a spiritual hierarchy, but god, the supreme being, never has and never will set foot upon planet earth. God IS the universe and all of creation. God's "word" is etched upon the spirit of humanity, which some refer to a 'Christ Consciousness." It isn't in the bible. You won't find God in the bible.

Babble and blind biblical rhetoric make me angry, pushing personal agendas and judgment using the empty echoes of scripture make me angry. Pious, unrequested pity and arrogance make me angry. Hypocrisy makes me angry.

reply to post by windword


where do you think the idea of "Christ Consciousness" came from my friend?

reply to post by Akragon


Hello Akragon,

I "think" that the idea of "Christ Consciousness" comes from Christianity, but, I think that the idea of "The Great Spirit" is universal. Many cultures have embraced the idea of a "one with god" or "one with the universe" kind of spirituality.

If Jesus existed, as the biblical character, then I agree with the OP. Surely he was more concerned about those to which he ministered at the time than all of the future generations of all the world.

Originally posted by mugger
reply to post by michaelsherlock

 

Jesus has been more well- documented and written about than anyone else. Even more than Abe Lincoln and Washington. Do you believe they existed?
You can start with the New Testament Gospels from the disciples to start.
Here is a link of just a few more sources from the Romans.Link

Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." (Arabic translation)

The fact remains, the existence of Jesus is documented but it can be interpreted differently by people and eye witness accounts.Take JFK, his death is very well- documented and the shooting on video but his death has been argued from then on as to how many shooters. Look at the threads here alone on about 9/11.

edit on 2/1/2012 by mugger because: add

Not with Josephus again. When are apologists going to let his reference go! In the first volume of my series I deal with Josephus, but seriously do some homework before quoting Josephus as a source for an historical Jesus.

And that whole eyewitness argument, I briefly deal with that as well! There is merit in the idea that eyewitness testimony varies, that is true, but some of the discrepancies between the acounts of the alleged "eyewitnesses" are so divergent that the analogy, is void!

Originally posted by frozenspark
OP, with your original post, you created a strawman that is far from being a correct representation of Jesus Christ and then went on setting that strawman on fire. You need to actually give some examples of the morals that he taught and fully explain why they do not apply universally if you want to accomplish anything with this thread.

The moral that Jesus taught do apply universally. How can you say that that the sermons he gave do not have universal application. He was a man who stated that, Gentile or Jew, we are all God's children and have a chance for redemption, whereas, the "chosen people" from whom he hailed, traditionally believe that goyim are the filth of the earth that are only there to be exploited.

Did he say that? Really! There is no getting around the fact that bot the OT and NT are Jewish focussed! What race will sit on the 12 thrones in heaven? What race is God! Get out an etymological dictionary and look it up! WHat race is Jesus, or Yeshua, The "virgin" Mary? In fact all of the main stars in this drama are Jewish! It is an outgrowth of a tribal religion which grew due to a more pragmatic interpretation which was then picked up as an excellent means of control, by an Emperor who wanted nothing more than to centralize authority and in order to do so he needed a system of belief that was dumbed down enough that it could be accepted by a credulous population and easily spread; Like McDonalds, no real value, just quick and easy emotional gratifications! McChristianity! This is what grew from the Proto-Orthodox Church!

reply to post by windword


i assure you Christ Consciousness did not come from Christianity... but it did come from those understanding his words within the bible...

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by borntowatch

 

it may be self explanatory but its based on lies and crap. I am not going to refute ignorance, you have nothing.

I recommend you study Saul of Tarsus, then read his "Road to Damascus incident"
Finaly read the book of Romans. A book Saul wrote to the Gentiles.
Ignorance maybe bliss but its not an excuse for complete folly

Oh, looks like you follow Paul instead of following Jesus. No wonder, what I said about Jesus earlier sailed over head. I should have known.

The only "lies and crap" you've known are the words of Paul...the one who the bible itself reveals to be a false apostle. You can call yourself a "christian" all you want, but you are deluding yourself.

edit on 1-2-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

i like the way you side stepped the answer. irrespective of who Paul is was or isnt, you should explain with evidence your vague miss leading comments first

reply to post by Akragon


OK. I agree and let me amend my statement to say that I think the idea of "Christ Consciousness" comes from the teachings of Jesus. However, I think that many have taught the way to enlightenment, or oneness with god, and achieving that enlightenment is what "Christ Consciousness" is all about.

reply to post by windword


When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter



lol...