are masons evil?

sorry if this has been talked about aleady, but does anyone out there think masons are evil and why would you think they are?. what do you have against them and what did they do to you to make you think they are evil?. please tell me, thank you.

Originally posted by Iknowalotofthings
you think they are evil?.

The only people that think Masons are evil are the intolerant religious fundamentalists and the lunatic fringe which thinks everyone is involved in a conspiracy. If you want to find a conspiracy, you need look no farther than the US governments relationship to corporations. And this conspiracy is no secret.
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Brother DF1;

I was with you right up until you wrote:

... If you want to find a conspiracy, you need look no farther than the US governments

Would you like to expand on what your problem is with corporations? As a corporation owner and board member, I am fascinated by folks that hate a business entity...

Thanks

Originally posted by theron dunn
Brother DF1;

Would you like to expand on what your problem is with corporations? As a corporation owner and board member, I am fascinated by folks that hate a business entity...

Thanks

Oh hmm must think really hard *pop* OMG just popped a blood vessel!

Ah got one:

How about the significant and obvious influence Corporations have in fomulating Foreign Policy?

See "the council on foreign relations" "trilateral commission" "bilderberg group".

Or how about the immoral and unethical pursuit of PROFIT ?

Originally posted by Corinthas

Originally posted by theron dunn
Brother DF1;

Would you like to expand on what your problem is with corporations? As a corporation owner and board member, I am fascinated by folks that hate a business entity...

Thanks

Oh hmm must think really hard *pop* OMG just popped a blood vessel!

Ah got one:

How about the significant and obvious influence Corporations have in fomulating Foreign Policy?

Its not JUST corporations, its any group... again, a group, a corporation, a company has a right under our constitution to peacefull petition the government. Are you trying to deny people their rights to speak.

See "the council on foreign relations" "trilateral commission" "bilderberg group".

They are groups, and this does not address why CORPORATIONS are ipso facto evil and need to be eliminated... these groups/corporations you mention have a right to opinions, as these groups are made up of men with opinions.

Or how about the immoral and unethical pursuit of PROFIT ?

How is pursuing profit immoral or unethical? This is America, land of free enterprise, not Russia, of the discredited central committees...

If I make a product and sell it to you with a markup above my costs so I can live, why is that wrong? I have read Marx, and have no use for it's philosophy.

posted by Brother Theron Dunn

Would you like to expand on what your problem is with corporations? As a corporation owner and board member, I am fascinated by folks that hate a business entity...

ENTITY????

Lets take a look shall we


The Entity:
It's 'preverbal', but controls life functions such as autonomic brain, breathing, heart rate and the fight or flight mechanism. Lacking language, its impulses are instinctual and ritualistic. It's concerned with fundamental needs such as survival, physical maintenance, hoarding, dominance, preening and mating.

God Bless the Snakes at the Water Cooler

Strengths

* Aggression and drive- relentless pursuit of goals.
* Lack of human moral boundaries or respect of others, which frees them to do more or go the extra step. "Do it or Ill get someone who can"
* Expansive creative thinking abilities, although limited by their vision.


Weaknesses

* Lack of the ability to empathize with others, judging others by what they would do in a given situation
* Poor judgment based on own wants, needs and desires at the moment.
* Assuming all have an agenda for their own personal needs.
* Lack of understanding of the human emotions of love or the concept of giving without personal gain. "We give to charities" The freemasons exclaim..... No personal gain? Ya sure? People dont look up to you as a Holy, Moral and Just Organization without question?? After all, who can argue against an organization that helps crippled children for free?

Originally posted by theron dunn
Would you like to expand on what your problem is with corporations?

In a business sense I have no problem with coporations. You mentioned previously that you own stock, I do too, so my beef with corporations is not economic. In another thread I stated that I believed that corporations were being given the same rights legally and politically that are granted to individuals. And that I believed that these rights should be stripped from corporations. I do not believe that our present political system is consistent with intentions of the founding fathers based on my observations.

You have already expressed that you do not agree with my assertion that corporations are being given the same rights as individuals. The link in my signature line closely approximates my position and provides ample supporting evidence. I believe the arguement is persuasive.

I hate straying this far off the thread topic, so I will step down from my soap box.
.

Originally posted by Iknowalotofthings
sorry if this has been talked about aleady, but does anyone out there think masons are evil and why would you think they are?. what do you have against them and what did they do to you to make you think they are evil?. please tell me, thank you.

I just want to tell you, you may know a lotta things, Iknowalotofthings, but apparently you don't know about the search function here.
Heck, you could even scroll through the Secret Societies section and find what you're looking for, unless of course you're really looking for points

Originally posted by df1
In a business sense I have no problem with coporations. You mentioned previously that you own stock, I do too, so my beef with corporations is not economic. In another thread I stated that I believed that corporations were being given the same rights legally and politically that are granted to individuals. And that I believed that these rights should be stripped from corporations.

The logic behind a corporate entity's being classified as an "individual" is that stockholders would not be contingently liable in case things went bad (Enron's a good example...if it had not been incorporated as a separate entity, then thousands of innocent stockholders would have been legally liable for billions in bad debt).

I do not believe that our present political system is consistent with intentions of the founding fathers based on my observations.

I agree completely. It was no less than Benjamin Franklin who observed that the greatest threat to freedom in the United States was the emerging economic form of industrial capitalism. The Rev. Francis Bellamy, who authored the Pledge of Allegiance and was also a Brother Mason and Methodist evangelist, was a leading member of the US Socialist Party. It has been a point of continuous propaganda since the Wilson administration (and especially the McCarthy era), for reactionaries to attempt to equate social responsibility with "anti-Americanism". In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by theron dunn
Would you like to expand on what your problem is with corporations?

In a business sense I have no problem with coporations. You mentioned previously that you own stock, I do too, so my beef with corporations is not economic. In another thread I stated that I believed that corporations were being given the same rights legally and politically that are granted to individuals. And that I believed that these rights should be stripped from corporations. I do not believe that our present political system is consistent with intentions of the founding fathers based on my observations.

You have already expressed that you do not agree with my assertion that corporations are being given the same rights as individuals. The link in my signature line closely approximates my position and provides ample supporting evidence. I believe the arguement is persuasive.

I hate straying this far off the thread topic, so I will step down from my soap box.
.

I'll stray with you-
Thanks for the link. Interesting stuff, don't agree with all of it, but interesting.

I also would like to see corporate income tax removed.

I would like to see the uniform laws changed so that all states hold corporate officers personally liable for fraud, mis-use and generally the acts of malfeasnce that seem to devastate share holders and other investors (bond holders, etc.).

Corporations should not be able to contribute politically.

Corporate officers should be precluded from public office.

Others along those lines - - -


I don't like constitutional amendments

Originally posted by PublicGadfly


I don't like constitutional amendments

How so ?

part one of two

Article XI.

The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.

Protects states.

Article XII.

The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by
ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least,
shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves;
. . .

Gives rights to electoral process

Article XIII.

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
. . .

Clarifies any misunderstandings. Clearly states individual rights.

Article XIV.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
. . .

Clarifies and enhances rights.

Article XV.


Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Restates part of the �soul� of a democracy.

Article XVI.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Federated power to tax.

Article XVII.

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. . .

Enhanced power of citizen to directly elect representatives.

Article XVIII.

Section 1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof
. . .

[/list

Prohibition- prime example of wrong laws being used to deprive citizens.


Article XIX.

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.



Granted power to citizens. Should not have been needed! Should have been inherent.

*edit: link added


[edit on 16/9/2004 by PublicGadfly]

part two of two

Article XX.

Section 1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January. . .

Enhances rights of citizenry.

Article XXI.

Section 1. The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.

Section 2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws
thereof, is hereby prohibited.

Section 3. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by conventions in the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.

Corrects 18th amendment.

Amendment XXII

Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and . . . . .

Enhances power of citizenry.

Amendment XXIII

Section 1. The District constituting the seat of government of the United States shall appoint in such manner as the Congress may direct:
. . .

Granted rights that should have existed from day one.

Amendment XXIV

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or . . . poll tax . . .

Enshrined rights that should be inherent in a democracy.

Amendment XXV

Section 1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President . . .



Clarifies rights.

Amendment XXVI

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are 18 years of age or older, to vote, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state on account of age.
. . .

Another of those rights that should have existed from day one.

Amendment XXVII

No law varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives shall take effect until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

Gives citizens right to remove those that filch the public purse.
- - -

Amendments should enhance the citizenry and limit government. Any limits upon the citizenry should be by statute always with a sunset provision. Any enhancement to government powers should be the same, always a sunset provision. 3 years max.!

I broke this in to two posts to be under the 500 word �line.�

Grant by amendment, limit by statute.


*edit: link added

plus these notes:

My contention is that :
Article nine (9) is often overlooked.

Articles 13, 15, 19 and 24 were passed to �clarify� that certain masonic like thought has no standing in the United States of America.



[edit on 16/9/2004 by PublicGadfly]

Originally posted by df1
If you want to find a conspiracy, you need look no farther than the US governments relationship to corporations

I definately agree with you on that one, df1, but it's not just the U.S Government, there's something weird going on in the U.K Government, they seem to be just following what ever U.S Government do.

Sorry, I just do not see the relationship. A corporation is the embodiment of the will of the shareholders, not some alien visitor. As a group, a company, I have the same (well, mostly) rights as a corporation, donations, sposorships, etc.. A corporation is simply a means of funneling income, of sheltering income (sort of) and executing the will of the shareholders, since you can't have shareholders in a company.

I still don't see why income to a corporation should be taxed, then distributed to shareholders and taxed. it seems ridiculous in the extreme the way we double, triple and quadruple tax dollars... the fleecing of america.

Personally, I like the flat tax the Republicans are talking up right now... exclude food, shelter and clothing from the taxes,and charge a Value Added Tax on every single dime that is spent otherwise. The more you spend, the more you pay taxes on.. the more you save, the less taxes you pay.. until you spend the money.

Corporations should be exempt from taxes, private businesses are...

and while we are at it, I think all "tax emempt" organizations should pay taxes on whatever they keep after expenses... that means churches and synagogues, political action committees, everyone, and no one should get a "write off" for donating to these organizations. Why should anyones tax dollars be lost because they were sent to a "charitable" organization?

Im sure there is a Mason somewhere that is evil, but not all of them. My relatives are masons, My World Cultures Teacher in high school was a mason, i know many masons, they arnt evil. . .

Lets talk more about this exact topic hey?

Well, I am new to this board and think that all this secret society stuff is quite entertaining. If masons are suppose to be secret, why are they talking on this forum? ;-)

So as with any open ended question of this nature, it is hard to answer.

Are masons evil? Evil from whose perspective? What constitutes evil. I am sure that masons dont think they are evil. Even if you think the organisation is evil, does it make all masons evil? Oh, so many questions.

Anyway, I have read some of these forums and the history of the masonic movement, and a name appeared. Albert Pike. Seems to be a key figure in the masonic movement with his book 'Morals and Dogma ' something akin to the Bible for these guys.

Well, I could claim that Albert Pike was involved heavely in the occult, but then I would need to provide non-conspirital proof. This, as it turned out was easier to find than I thought. Looking at an official masonic web-site

www.mastermason.com...

It states in an opening sentence:

"IT IS WELL known to all students of Masonry that the
degrees of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry for the
Southern Jurisdiction of the United States are, more or less,
tinctured with the occult doctrines of Jewish Cabala and the
Hermetic and Rosicrucian teachings, to say nothing of the
principles of Neo-Platonism and other mystical schools of
philosophy. "

According to their own sources, Freemasonry is tinctured with accoult doctrines of numerious straines. So far I have only done a search on one of these. Jewish Cabala.

Follow the link:

www.occultopedia.com...

What is this?

"The Kabbalah, with its amulets, incantations, demonology, seals, and letter and number mysticism, had a profound influence on Western magical tradition. The Tetragrammaton especially was held in great awe for its power over all things in the universe, including demons."

So Freemason doctrines are connected to demonology and number mysticism to say just a few. Well, we know about all the symbols and numbers in freemasonery so I guess this adds up. This demon stuff is a bit scary though! Can anyone else tell me more about this?

As I said, I have only done a very small search, and looked at two, none biased sites.

My conclusing is that their teachings appear to be...

Originally posted by shmick25
Well, I could claim that Albert Pike was involved heavely in the occult, but then I would need to provide non-conspirital proof. This, as it turned out was easier to find than I thought. Looking at an official masonic web-site

www.mastermason.com...

It states in an opening sentence:

"IT IS WELL known to all students of Masonry that the
degrees of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry for the
Southern Jurisdiction of the United States are, more or less,
tinctured with the occult doctrines of Jewish Cabala and the
Hermetic and Rosicrucian teachings, to say nothing of the
principles of Neo-Platonism and other mystical schools of
philosophy. "

From the same source at the bottom of the page:

This website does not speak for the Grand Lodge of Illinois or Freemasonry

So much for being "official".

I would delve into the subject of �Blue Lodge� Freemasonry and Scottish Rite Freemasonry, but it has been covered countless times� Scottish Rite Masonry is a concordant body, not all Masons are Scottish Rite Masons (of course all Scottish Rite Masons are �Blue Lodge� Masons); to apply the philosophy of Pike as being representative of Freemasonry is patently false. That being said it is a fascinating exposition of the great religions and philosophies of the world; worthy of any serious intellectual pursuit of the same.

As I said, I have only done a very small search, and looked at two, none biased sites.

My conclusing is that their teachings appear to be...

You seem to have issue with the less than Christian approach to moral philosophy of Albert Pike, or am I �conclusing�? Freemasonry is not a religion, part of a religion, a substitute for religion, or a singular entity that generalizations (no matter how poorly researched) can be applied to.

Originally posted by shmick25

Anyway, I have read some of these forums and the history of the masonic movement, and a name appeared. Albert Pike. Seems to be a key figure in the masonic movement with his book 'Morals and Dogma ' something akin to the Bible for these guys.

Albert Pike served as Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 33� of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry for the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States in the mid-to-late 19th century. He is credited as a very important force in the Fraternity here because under his administration, the Rite grew at a rapid rate, and it was he who introduced the Rite's modern ceremonial forms from the 4� to the 33� in this Jurisdiction. However, he is virtually unknown in other Masonic jurisdictions.

"Morals and Dogma" is a textbook containing the lectures of the Scottish Rite degrees as worked in the Southern Jurisdiction. It is not now, nor has ever, been considered a "bible". Instead, it is a philosophical overview of the history of man's evolving thoughts concerning the nature of morality and religious dogma....it reads rather like a college textbook on comparitive religion and philosophy.

Well, I could claim that Albert Pike was involved heavely in the occult, but then I would need to provide non-conspirital proof.

Pike was indeed interested in the occult, especially a branch of traditional Jewish mysticism called the Kabbalah, which, upon investigation, shows itself to be an extremely scholarly (though abstract) form of Neo-Platonism. Pike was also interested in Buddhist, Hindu, and Zoroastrianism mystical thought, as well as the traditional forms of Christian mysticism.

According to their own sources, Freemasonry is tinctured with accoult doctrines of numerious straines. So far I have only done a search on one of these. Jewish Cabala.

The Kabbalah is an excellent resource for those who investigate the origins of Masonic symbolism.

So Freemason doctrines are connected to demonology and number mysticism to say just a few. Well, we know about all the symbols and numbers in freemasonery so I guess this adds up. This demon stuff is a bit scary though! Can anyone else tell me more about this?

Angels and demons are only symbols in the Kabbalah, i.e., Kabalists do not pretend that they literally exist. The difference between a mystic and a fundamentalist is that the latter believes literally in what the former uses as a symbol. Kabalists have elaborated upon this in depth, but perhaps the best writing on the subject of religious symbolism comes from the famous psychologist Carl Gustav Jung, whose writings on religious archetypes and their presence in the collective unconscious revolutionized neo-Freudian psychoanalytic theory.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by theron dunn
I still don't see why income to a corporation should be taxed, then distributed to shareholders and taxed. it seems ridiculous in the extreme the way we double, triple and quadruple tax dollars... the fleecing of america.

It is my opinion that only businesses should be taxed by the government and that individuals should not be taxed at all. I favor this approach because it would be much easier for the government to audit the tax liability of a couple million businesses than it is to audit the tax liability of 300 or so million individuals. The individual would in no way escape taxation as each business would add their tax liability on to the cost of their products and services that are purchased by individuals. The tax would be a consumption tax.

This type of tax would eliminate government intrusion into the lives of individuals and not force individuals to be bookkeepers for the government. Corporations, as well as other businesses already have various requirements via laws and regulations that require them to keep honest books to protect stockholders. Lets just use these same requirements for taxation purposes too.

The fleecing of America is due to collusion between the government and business. By removing the individual from the taxation process it would result in a fairer tax system and more freedom for the individual from government intrusion.

My opinion is based on my employment as a tax consultant for America's largest tax preparation company. It was unbelievable to me how ignorant the average tax payer is about the US tax system and how this ignorance takes money out of their pockets. Many of these individuals just simply lack the mental capacity to take advantage of legal breaks even with the benefit of a highly qualified tax preparer. It is very sad watching people living a hand to mouth existance being raped in this manner by our tax system.
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[edit on 23-9-2004 by df1]