Gravity and time perception.

Originally posted by litterbaux
reply to post by chr0naut

 

its not "dark" its just bending space time to such a degree that we can't see it.

Could be.

Originally posted by swampcricket

Originally posted by chr0naut

Originally posted by swampcricket

Originally posted by DAZ21
If you fly around the earth fast enough, you can slow ageing.

The space shuttle orbited earth at around 17,500 mph did that slow the aging of the astronauts on board?

science.ksc.nasa.gov...

The altitude that they traveled at slowed their clocks in relation to ones that stayed on the ground but the velocity that they traveled at relative to the clocks on the ground would have sped the clocks up by a small amount.

Thing is, the gravitational dilation would probably have exceeded the compression of timespace due to velocity.

Is there a formula to calculate the gravitational dilation versus the time space compression due to velocity? That would be fun to tinker with.

I'm getting a bit rusty now on my physics but there is a good textbook on Spacetime Physics called "Spacetime Physics" by Wheeler and Taylor (I think). It starts out quite basic and readable and then ramps up as you go through the concepts and maths.

Wheeler was the physicist who coined the phrase "Matter tells space-time how to curve and space-time tells matter how to move".

Also, sorry but I was editing my previous post while you were responding so I may have gotten the topic thread slightly out of sync.

Originally posted by swampcricket
reply to post by ZeussusZ

 

I thought only black holes could bend light?

Actually, all gravitation bends light to one degree or another, it is just that a black hole is an extreme "bender" of space-time, to the point where light cannot escape if it is captured.

Space and time are a sort of united force and gravity caused it to bunch up, creating a sort of density. In areas of reality where space is more dense, time (to be defined by the rate of atomic decay and perception) seems to go faster. What I find interesting about this is say you manage to create a wormhole to a safe portion of the center of the galaxy and pass through it, then sit in the center of the galaxy for a lil while, when you pass through the wormhole again to get back to Earth, you'll have effectively traveled years into the future, depending on the rate in which time seems to have passed comparatively to the space time density difference between the two locations in reality. Time can also be modified by the rate in which you travel through space, in that, the faster you go, the higher the rate of time. Though, you really have to be scooting in order to really travel forwards through time.

Originally posted by DAZ21
If you fly around the earth fast enough, you can slow ageing.

With respect to everyone else. You yourself , in your own time frame, would experience time exactly the same ie your video games would still run at the same rate!!! A networked game (accommodating the time dilation of the TCP/IP messages) would be interesting

You have matter and spacetime. You have inanimate and animate. How do you get the inanimate to become animate? How do you get the animate to evolve? SPACETIME. Its not life that we can physically identify as progressing. Its spacetime. Space expands and time goes on so life evolves.

We can't find consciousness because we're looking in the wrong place. We can't find the initiator of life because we're looking in the wrong place. It's SPACETIME.

In places where spacetime is more or less condensed, (in higher or lower gravitational zones), you have beings that experience varying qualities of life. Some beings can accomplish in one minute what would take us ten. I'm not just speculating, I've seen such beings. ------> www.abovetopsecret.com...

Dark matter may or may not exist. I say it is compression. We look at the universe and compare it to our own situation, weight, distance basically our 3 dimensions. I have never read where scientists use compression in their hypothesis. (it may be out there, I may have missed it)
What is compression? Take for example a world the same dimensions as our earth. However, the atoms and molecules have compressed ten fold. This would make the weight of the same-sized alien planet approximately ten times our earth because the mass of the alien planet is compressed. If this happens through the universe, which it does, it might account for the missing mass of the universe. It is difficult to assess the weight of a distant object except by measuring its gravitational affects on nearby celestial objects, but if the nearby objects are compressed also, they would act the same as our perception of our nearby planets, star and moon do.

Everyone realize that we are basically illusions? If all the atoms in our molecular structure were compressed to where the electron shells touched, our bodies would be the size of a marble, but weigh the same on this planet. There are four attractions that hold atoms together, as well as molecules. they are the strong nuclear force (the strong force), the weak nuclear force (weak force), electromagnetic force and gravity. However, gravity is so weak at the nuclear level, it is almost non-existent. It takes a lot of atoms linked together to have gravity affect them.

It is basically thought that so-called "black holes" are the result of terrific gravitational force on the molecules and atoms in a super giant star. We don't know, really. I think it is a fifth force formed in the super giants that create or help create the super-massive black hole.

Maybe when we can create probes that can tolerate the massive force of black holes, we will start to understand them.

Okay, time to jump into the discussion...

Gravity affects the passage of time. One's velocity also affects the passage of time.

When one is closer to a strong gravity field, time passes at a slower rate. This was demonstrated by showing that a clock at the top of a mountain marks a faster passage of time than a clock at sea level (closer to the center of Earth).

When one's velocity gets significantly closer to the speed of light, time passes at a slower rate, even if it appears normal to the one who is actually travelling.

In the case of satellites orbiting the Earth, they have to constantly recallibrate their clocks to adjust for slower time passage. If we were only looking at the effect of gravity, we would expect that their clocks would be speeding up, because they are so much farther from the Earth than we are. Instead, it is the speed at which they are travelling that makes their clocks keep time at a slower rate compared to clocks on the surface. The satellites have to travel so fast in order to stay in orbit, otherwise they would fall back to the surface.

Here's a nice site for calculating the change for going near light speed: www.1728.org...

I can't seem to locate a site that calculates the time dilation due to various gravity field strengths, but then, that would require a different set of calculations

reply to post by NightFlight


Unfortunately, a probe that gets too close to a black hole wouldn't be able to tell us much. Once inside the event horizon, all transmissions would no longer be able to get to us from the probe, as even the radio signals would get pulled in.

Haven't read the whole thread yet but I wanted to add this documentary to the discussion. I first saw it a while ago and have watched it a few times since. This guy has a very different theory of time from the "mainstream" and to me it makes sense. Basically he says that time doesn't exist, that it's just a construct of the human mind. Anybody interested in time should watch this.

"Through the Wormhole - Is time an illusion" is a good watch, goes into some crazy theories such as space and time not being linked, and time in different humans seeming to pass at different rates and so on.

the easiest to read up on time dilation is to get a very elementary (first year level) university-textbook on general and special relativity, or just google it, lol

I recently read an awesome new book that discusses this very same subject.

The Source Field Investigations

In it the author, David Wilcock, posits that gravity is the result of gravity is an effect of a push from the Source Field.

wilcock posits that there exists a "source field" (what has been called the ether) which is the prerequisite for all physical and meta-physical existence. he also posits that the Source Field is a "liquid-like" substance which acts like a fluid. This fluid-like source field pours into the Earth and all matter to create the "force" of gravity. ( Gravity well starting to ring a bell? )

this liquid like ether is pouring into the Earth in a different dimension than our familiar space/time physical world...but it manifests in the physical as the "push" of gravity and the "flow" of time.

as for the existence of the Source Field: his entire book is based upon it, (among hundreds of others which call it "The Ether" & "The Spirit World") and there are over 3000 scientific studies referenced in his book as circumstantial evidence for the Source Field.

~ I suspect that the clock slowed down because it was accelerating against the flow of the Source Field.

time is relative. imagine if you were existing inside that clock. when the clock was raised upwards it was accelerating (gaining speed compared to being at-rest). when you consider the downward motion of the Source Field, acceleration upwards is experienced (by the Source Field) as a greater resistance to the flow.

now please use imagination, and consider that perhaps our perception of time is directly proportional to the amount of resistance we human-conduits have against the flow of the Source Field. perhaps the speed of time is inversely proportional to the amount of resistance we create.

the more we "go with the flow", the faster time seems to go. the more we resist "the flow", the slower time seems to go.

if WE are a stick stuck in the mud of the river of time...then to "go with the flow" would mean to pose no resistance to the flow of the Source Field. if we allow the Source Field Gravity to flow right through us unobstructed, then gravity does not push on our atoms (and levity occurs).

~ so how does the Source Field experience this upward rising clock? It experiences the clock as increasing it's resistance to the Source Field flow. since the upward-accelerating clock is increasing resistance to the Source Field flow, the clock is "resisting the flow", and time seems to pass slower.

I highly recommend the book, OP. It's the future of science.


now take into account when time seems to "fly by" and when time seems to "drag". "time flies when you're having fun" because you're going with the flow...you're being a clear conduit for the Source Field energy.

when we're depressed and angry/fearful, time seems to "drag" because we are obstructing the flow of the Source Field energy.

if you understand the emotional and mental differences between a child joyfully playing on a playground and a child attending a depressing & uninteresting school lesson, you can start to see how the emotions of Love & Hate dictate our experience of the human body, consciousness, and planetary consciousness.

metalshreadmetal, those are some pretty nice visualizations, of the resisting gravity slowing time down and such,

do you guys know the carnival ride, "the graviton"?

basically how i imagine gravity is like the bodies of mass, are like spinning tops, or gravitons which also move as a body,, now imagine a top the size of planets and stars... moving at tremendous speeds, first of all we are specs of dust on this top or graviton,., now how i view gravity is as if these tops were on the water and were large enough they would create a wave or wake, and similar to the force of rip tide we see on a 6ft wave of the ocean... the "rip tide wake effect" of these bodies mechanical movements at tremendous speeds through space is the force of gravity.,.,

this may be completely wrong and make no sense

Here you go; formulas for Gravitational Time Dilation:

en.wikipedia.org...

And then time dilation due to velocity:

en.wikipedia.org...

Saw a great explanation of both by Stephen Hawking not too long ago, showing how the Gravity one affects you less than velocity. This is due to the fact to get the best possible effect using gravity, one would have to get as close as possible to a very strong gravitational field, the best being a black hole. Unfortunately, you'd have to make sure you do not cross the event horizon, else there would be no coming back. Because of this, you can only experience a much lower factor of time dilation this way (unless you figure out a way to get past the even horizon and back again, heh).

Velocity on the other hand, if you take a look at the simple formula in the link above, you'll notice that you do not get large amounts of delta t (time difference, meaning the different amount of time you experience and what those outside your reference experience), until you start getting very close to the speed of light.
And because of how the formula works, you wouldn't want to actually get to the speed of light, else all of time will pass, hehehehe.
That is because the formula calls for your velocity squared (v^2) divided by the speed of light squared (c^2) would equal "1" if you ever achieved light speed. This makes for an impossible solution, because you then have to find the square root of 1-1 or 0, and divide that into your delta t (or time traveled).
Basic math: anything divided by 0 = infinity

So if you DID achieve light speed, and hit the "off" switch in a blink of an eye (your time), a infinite amount of time will have passed......

It's fun to play with however. Sit down and calculate out how many years here on Earth will pass if you somehow had a space ship that could go 99.99 percent the speed of light, and you spent 4.3 years traveling to Alpha Centauri......even though it only took you just over 4 years....over 75 years will have passed here on Earth.

Originally posted by davidchin
Gravity affects the passage of time. One's velocity also affects the passage of time.

When one is closer to a strong gravity field, time passes at a slower rate. This was demonstrated by showing that a clock at the top of a mountain marks a faster passage of time than a clock at sea level (closer to the center of Earth).

When one's velocity gets significantly closer to the speed of light, time passes at a slower rate, even if it appears normal to the one who is actually travelling.

Gravity is not a field it is a constant for all thing of matter it can only decreases with less mass and increase with more it defines time and for that matter space

A general observation of galaxy rotation can be stated as: galaxies with a central bulge in their disk have a rotation curve sloping horizontally flat from centre to edge (line B in illustration), i.e. stars are observed to revolve around the centre of these galaxies at a constant speed over a large range of distances from the centre of the galaxy.

en.wikipedia.org...

The further anything made of matter get from an object of mass the slower its time passes compared from that object the closer to the center of mass something gets the faster it will get until it hits a singulaity and can go no faster then that singular point
Which is the transverse of the object moving further away it is slowing down until it can go no further and hitting the same singularity only the opposite way but their is a constant speed for everything within a galaxy's rotation.
For all i know each galaxy could be its own universe or in string theory membrane or p-brane and thats what could makes up the multi-verse, maybe lets not get to ahead of ourselves
en.wikipedia.org...

Take the Pioneer anomaly

The Pioneer anomaly or Pioneer effect is the observed deviation from predicted accelerations of the Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 spacecraft after they passed about 20 astronomical units (3×109 km; 2×109 mi) on their trajectories out of the Solar System. Both Pioneer spacecraft are escaping the Solar System, but are slowing under the influence of the Sun's gravity. Upon very close examination of navigational data, the spacecraft were found to be slowing slightly more than expected.

This may just be the fact that we are speeding up are downward motion in are own earth time compared to the spacecraft that are going the same as was predicted
And to that end maybe dinosaurs where not so big when they where alive but only after there bones became fossils do they look so big to use now since the size they once where long ago was not so different for the size we are know

Space is fundamental to understanding time
Einstein was right that time is relative (his problem was he was trapped on a one-way street)
Unable to resolve gravity, relativity, quantum mechanics and space-time together no one really has
Space is not defined by time and time is not defined by space
It is what takes up that space that and how it is flowing outward expanding from the downward or inward flow that is forcing all that matters down

The reason quantum mechanics and general relativity never matched up is because they both believe that time is moving forward

Which is not the case time as we know it may be progressing forward relative to ones life
Life is the actually the fight against backwards gravity is pulling everything down to the same place
Everything from the plants animals you me this planet and the sun are living entities they where begotten and born birth is the beginning of the end because everything that has a beginning has an end
All that lives are destine for death or the price of life is death
It is a crime for which the penalty is death but it is not the end it is just where the next life whether it be a star or a tree or even a person each need each other to exist without anyone of them not one would exist and without nonexistence there would be no existence at all

Nothing is everything but Everything is not nothing

"Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal." Arthur Schopenhauer

-----Ex nihilo nihil fit----- Nothing comes from nothing

So when God said let there be light who was he speaking to?

I would like to think that God would want to talk a Goddess
now whether she cares or is listening is like if a tree falls in the woods that was never heard or seen. So who care about it no one heard or saw it?

But the thing about reality is that i can see it and hear its and the possibility are infinite but even on a simple line graph of everything moves forward from 0.0 or is moving back into it which is true for all things here there are 6 opposing directions you can look at Forwards, Backwards Left, Right Up Down
Now tell me of those six ways is Up not going to be
Its every way without

so where does down really go

Within

if you made 3 points ( 1a ) + (Oc) - (1b ) you can triangulate something

try x axis line graph which is defined by these 3 points +1 -1 and zero point
This line has within it and without are 2 points infinity
+1 > 0 -1 infinity within the points

which is what all things that One is a great number it will never equal Zero
but it has 2 forms +1 and -1 outside of both ones is infinity between them is 0 and also infinity e.i. 0.9876...+ or -
(plus or minus is simply all in ones perspective of another one)
2 the same one different
Here is a fun math question- pi is the diameter of a circle wrapped around its circumference
Look at the point as like 3 exact circles drawn together

draw a circle then draw the same circle on both sides of the first one then draw a big one around all 3
now the outer circle and the inner center circle are the same
the circles on both sides of the center are plus or minus 1 circle from the center
Take the diameter of the outer big circle which is the length of the 3 circles across it and wrap that around the center inner circle and see what you get

This is the triangulation of pi since you are using three points to fix one location and since all circle are circles this answer is repeating infinitely and not randomly like the simple diameter of a single circle does which is just as important to understanding because you need both ways to make things rational and logical plus reasonably illogical and/or irrational

Which is fundamental to All since you cant have existence without nonexistence that would unreasonable

They say end on a quote I have 2 I would like to share with any who would listen

"Suddenly you’re awake. But where are you? Everywhere you look there’s white. White walls hug and confine you, stretching deeper and deeper, marking the boundaries of a straight, narrow, featureless hallway. You’re bewildered, but who wouldn’t be? Finally you stand and look behind you. All white, everything, going back to where it vanishes. You push against the hard white floor, swaying and almost losing your balance because you’ve been asleep so long. Looking ahead, you realize the hallway is not exactly like it was behind you. Almost the same, but not quite. Way, way in the distance you can see some specks. And, reasoning that specks are better than nothing, you begin walking toward them. It takes a long time, but then the specks grow and define themselves. They have become signs, gold in color and arrow-shaped. They hang at the end of the hallway, and you can see lettering on them. Closer and closer you walk, until you can see that there’s a second hallway perpendicular to this one. One arrow points left and reads: “Casino.” The other points right and reads: “Life.” Choose Life.-- "America's Mad Genius" Mike Caro

OLBERS’ PARADOX And I heard the learned astronomer whose name was Heinrich Olbers speaking to us across the centuries about how he observed with naked eye how in the sky there were some few stars close up and the further away he looked the more of them there were with infinite numbers of clusters of stars in myriad Milky Ways & myriad nebulae So that from this we can deduce that in the infinite distances there must be a place there must be a place where all is light and that the light from that high place Where all is light simply hasn’t got here yet which is why we still have night But when at last that light arrives when at last it does get here the part of day we now call Night will have a white sky little black dots in it little black holes where once were stars And then in that symbolic so poetic place which will be ours we’ll be our own true shadows and our own illumination on a sunset earth -Lawrence Ferlinghetti

Wow thanks everyone for all of the different ideas and input. It seems like they all make sense but also make no sense all at once. I wish Einstein was here to chime in some of the replys would sure have thrown him for a loop lol. Keep the good ideas coming.

reply to post by IblisLucifer


you spoke of the spacecrafts we sent out of our solar system and how they appeared to change velocity and this had to do with the suns gravity still attracting them back?

would it be possible to send spacecraft forward towards the sun, and on past the sun? the direction our solar system is heading...

reply to post by eriktheawful


Question. Since velocity affects time dilation, then if, for the rest of my life, I swing my arms as fast as I could, then my body and hands would age at a different rate?