Islam and other things

reply to post by Sahabi

Why would I be your slave? Why would you be my slave? Such a situation is not possible today, thanks to the system set up: Make freeing slaves a REALLY good thing, the requirement for repenting many sins, even if you have to buy them, if the master had a child with the slave, the child was free, and on the master's death, the woman was free as well, etc., and make acquiring slaves really difficult: only if the slave had a child NOT by the master (or another free person), or if they were captured during war (although again, ransoming them or returning them back after hostilities were over was better).

That Arab and african muslims misused and twisted this system for their own benefit is not a fault of Islam.

A wife is a partner, yes, and she would probably slap me if she thought I was doing something idiotic as well.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

"if its possible".... "not as I will, but as thou wilt"... even while asking for help from the one who he called "Father"??? Does this not show that Jesus had fully submitted to God?

I think you are imagining something you want to be there.

reply to post by babloyi


I understand the point of defending yourself. But always remember, you are not your religion. Defend yourself, but allow religion to defend itself.

Sugar coat, make excuses, justify, talk around the facts, and even compare/contrast Islam to other religions or jahiliyyah (times of ignorance), but the points are:

Slavery was never abolished in Islam, even after Allah said "this day I have perfected your religion," even though it was a well established practice. Although there are numerous laws and decrees in Islam, it was non-Muslims who freed the slaves by law.

Allah says it is acceptable to beat, hit, hit lightly, slap, or smack one's wife.

Islam separates mankind between Muslims versus non-Muslims.

There is no gender equality in Islam, there is no freedom for slaves in Islam, and no brotherhood outside of religion in Islam.

Any improvement of mankind regarding freedom, liberty, equality, and justice after Muhammad's death is due to non-Muslims. Why? Because Allah said he perfected your religion over 1,300 years ago.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I think you are imagining something you want to be there.

Nope. Its obvious that Jesus had indeed submitted to God in his prayer.
I cant see any other way of reading that. If you think otherwise, I'm curious to hear.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


My opinion is to look at your signature and figure out your agenda which is similar to others on this forum which is to lure people away from Christianity. I would rather drive them before me to get out because they are sinners and have no business taking the name of Christ in vain.
If you want sinners who just act out as if they are religious, then be my guest since they are nothing but hypocrites anyway and fuel for the fires of hell.

reply to post by Sahabi

I don't need to defend anything. I was just explaining the way it is.

What has "this day I have perfected your religion" got to do with anything? Are you suggesting that muslims should've been mindless borgs the instant the "this day I have perfected your religion" was revealed? People are still allowed to think, make value judgements and form opinions. Islam certainly doesn't oppose the abolition of slavery, in fact, as I mentioned, the rules it set in place allowed for a gradual disappearance of it.

Besides, every religion in the world separates itself from those who do not believe in it. Hell, every group or organisation in the world does that.

reply to post by jmdewey60


reply to post by jmdewey60

My opinion is to look at your signature and figure out your agenda which is similar to others on this forum which is to lure people away from Christianity.

My signature simply links to various threads which I started here. No need to get distracted by that.
There is no agenda and I don't want to lure anybody out of or into anything. I have my way of looking at the scriptures, and you have yours.

A statement like "Jesus fully submitted to Gods will", is based off biblical scripture... in fact Jesus' own words. Thats not going to change no matter who you hear it from.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Jesus taught people to submit themselves to God, and no one else

No Jesus taught us to submit to authority of God and His Church (If they reject you,they reject me, and if they reject me, they reject the One who sent me), and also to submit to your parents. Where Jesus tells us to love our enemies and pray for them, what does Mohammed teach?

Also, if Jesus was taken to heaven, who was that guy in a glorified body who went around for 40 days being witnessed by many people?

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Jesus taught people to submit themselves to God, and no one else

No Jesus taught us to submit to authority of God and His Church (If they reject you,they reject me, and if they reject me, they reject the One who sent me), and also to submit to your parents. Where Jesus tells us to love our enemies and pray for them, what does Mohammed teach?

Also, if Jesus was taken to heaven, who was that guy in a glorified body who went around for 40 days being witnessed by many people?

Can you elaborate more about "that guy in a glorified body who went around for 40 days being witnessed by many people?" thnx.

reply to post by QuantumSeeker


After His resurrection He (Jesus) was on earth for at least 40 days to show He truly rose from the dead, and then He ascended.

reply to post by 547000

No Jesus taught us to submit to authority of God and His Church (If they reject you,they reject me, and if they reject me, they reject the One who sent me), and also to submit to your parents.

As far as who we submit to, the part in the Lords prayer "thy will be done", makes it clear who we all ultimately submit to.

And what do you mean by "His church"? The catholic church? the protestant church? some other church? Which one? You christians dont even agree on this, so you guys need to sort this out among yourselves before trying to convince somebody else.

Where Jesus tells us to love our enemies and pray for them, what does Mohammed teach?

"love your enemies and pray for them"
While it is a noble message, Jesus was addressing the Israelites who he said he came for. Its there in the bible.

As for what Mohammad taught, what exactly do you want to hear? The teachings that show a sharp contrast between Mohammad and Jesus? Or ones that show him as a prophet who preached the message of God of Abraham and encouraged mercy and peace among his people, like the prophets of the bible?

Also, if Jesus was taken to heaven, who was that guy in a glorified body who went around for 40 days being witnessed by many people?

I dont know. I thought Jesus said he was going to go to paradise(along with the thief) the very day of the crucifixion.

Are you saying Jesus got nailed to the cross, died, went to paradise, came back, went back and then will return in the grand second coming? You christians are making it all up as you go along, aren't you?

Further, given the contradictory accounts of what happened at the tomb, I'd be a little careful about going by the bibles claim of Jesus rising from the dead.


Also, this...
www.biblegateway.com...

The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.

Found something just feel like sharing:

peace8world.blogspot.com...

reply to post by QuantumSeeker


I found this, if it wasn't from CNN, I couln't believe it !
CNN: Adhan miracle, flowers blooming when hearing adhan (calling to prayers),
www.youtube.com...#!

reply to post by babloyi

What has "this day I have perfected your religion" got to do with anything?

This is VERY important, because it is Allah's stamp of approval of His "perfect" religion. If additional freedoms, liberties, and equality were to come after Islam, then it illustrates that Islam is not perfect in itself.

I will agree that Islam vastly improved the condition of jahiliyyah (times of ignorance). Many systems, concepts, and even technology came and superseded that which came before. Islam contributed to our shared human legacy, but it is plainly clear that great strides in freedom, liberty, equality, and human brotherhood continue to improve without Islam's influence.

No matter how you try to justify Islam, you can not honestly say that Islam is not an unbiased source of harmony amongst mankind. It is a totalitarian system.

Besides, every religion in the world separates itself from those who do not believe in it. Hell, every group or organisation in the world does that.

Thank you for finally admitting that Islam is a separator, not unifier. I am against all religion and all systems that seek to instill superficial separation. Mankind in One nation. We are One people, we are One Human Experience. We need to liberate from Ego and the superficial separation of nationality, religion, gender, caste, social status, wealth, political party, etc. WE ARE ONE FAMILY.

reply to post by QuantumSeeker


I looked up the meanings of name, and we know that names were very important in Biblical times.

Zechariah (the father of John the Baptist) means "God remembers"

Elizabeth (the mother of John the Baptist) means "Oath of God"

John means "God is generous"

Mary (from Maryim or Miriam) has several meanings, depending on where you live. It's most prominent meaning is bitter.

Joseph means "God will increase"

Jesus means "Salvation"

We can see even in this, by the names themselves, that a prophetic message is proclaimed.

God remembers His oath and is generous to increase His salvation through bitterness...the bitter cup that Jesus said no one was able to drink from.

Zechariah 12 1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. 6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Me, whom they have pierced. Prophecy being fulfilled in Jesus.

I also looked up the name Issa in Arabic, it means "salvation". Why is it the very name means salvation, and yet they do not accept the salvation offered through the crucifixion of Jesus?

The name Mohammed means "praise worthy" and we can see where Mohammed went wrong. Even though his name means praise worthy, he also said

"ALLAH is HE besides Whom there is none worthy of worship, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. HE has sent down to thee the Book containing the truth and fulfilling that which precedes it; and HE has sent down the Torah (Law of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guidance to the people; and HE has sent down the Discrimination (judgement between right and wrong)." -- Qur'an, Surah 3:3-4

Is Mohammed praise worthy? Has his personal life of rape and murder something to be praised for?

Surah 9:62They swear by Allah to you [Muslims] to satisfy you. But Allah and His Messenger are more worthy for them to satisfy, if they should be believers.

The first messenger, Jesus Christ, came into the world and said He is the way of salvation. If Jesus is the way of salvation, there should be no more need of any other messenger because Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED". The Holy Ghost was not a new Comforter, or a new messenger, the Holy Ghost is the one who comes by the Spirit for those of us living post-Crucifixion, those of us who came after those of the Bible. The Holy Ghost is God. The Holy Ghost says "Jesus is salvation, come to Jesus". There is no more to come after Him. Jesus drank that bitter cup for all who would come to Him. He died for every person, and it was a cruel death.

BTW, the Zechariah verse is from the OT, so it is prophecy in which God says "they pierced me" and who else was pierced? No one else but Jesus.

reply to post by Sahabi

Originally posted by Sahabi
This is VERY important, because it is Allah's stamp of approval of His "perfect" religion. If additional freedoms, liberties, and equality were to come after Islam, then it illustrates that Islam is not perfect in itself.

If you don't mind me saying, this is your salafi training speaking again. This is the mindset that "Muhammad (SAW) died in 10AH, we don't need anything beyond that!" that leaves people stuck in the 7th century, and is what is so exemplary of the problems so many have with Salafists today.

Islam emphasises learning, advancement, progression, discussion, etc. (of course, within the limits of the scripture, but then again, anything not explicitly prohibited, that doesn't do more harm than good is allowed).
Giving the example that other cultures have also advanced isn't an indication of the falsity of Islam. It doesn't negate Islam in any way. Just because the backbone was built up 1300 years ago, doesn't mean we can only be a backbone forever. You don't think God could have set up things in such a way that instructions given in the 7th century have echoes and reflections that reach till even today?

Originally posted by Sahabi
Thank you for finally admitting that Islam is a separator, not unifier. I am against all religion and all systems that seek to instill superficial separation. Mankind in One nation. We are One people, we are One Human Experience. We need to liberate from Ego and the superficial separation of nationality, religion, gender, caste, social status, wealth, political party, etc. WE ARE ONE FAMILY.

As I said before, not just islam, but EVERY single group/organisation/clan/country/religion/etc. is a "separator". Being different from the other guy is not a BAD thing. It is part of what makes us what we are, and makes us interesting to each other. Of course we are one family- the Islamic scriptures say as much (we are all one Ummah, God is Rab-ul-alameen, not just "Rab-ul-muslimeen",etc.). But we are also different from each other. Why would you wish a system where everyone thought exactly alike, had the same beliefs and understandings and opinions?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The church whom Peter was in charge of.

Jesus even said a Samitarian, not just Jews, could keep the two laws. He wasn't teaching just to be good among yourselves but to your neighbors too. Mohammed taught an inversion of Jesus' teachings.

After dying Jesus descended to the realm of the dead to announce the good news. It's even in the apostles 'creed. And on the third day He rose from the dead, just like He claimed He would. Ever heard of Abraham's Bosom?

reply to post by babloyi


If Islam isn't perfect in itself, why did Allah say "this day I have perfected your religion"?

If we are allowed to ignore some verses of the Qur'an... say that this verse was only meant for such-and-such event... say that Allah has abrogated a concept... etc., Why can a Muslim do this when Allah in the Qur'an mocks the People of the Book for doing this with their Bible? Following some parts, ignoring some parts.

And, if we must use Hadith or Tafsir to understand every specific event behind every single ayah of the Qur'an, the question is, "Who's Hadith and who's Tafsir do we use? Who's Seerah?"
This easily gives way for indoctrination by an individual sheikh/mufti or madh'hab. Sectarianism, religious corruption, and most importantly; Bid'ah. But isn't the Qur'an supposed to be the book of no doubt?


No where did I say that we must all strive to be the same. Global brotherhood is not about uniformity or emulation. It is about loving each human as yourself regardless of their religion, nationality, etc. It is about the true and sincere understanding that each human is the same as you. "Love your fellow human as if he/she were yourself."

Islam teaches conformity, uniformity, and emulation. Bathe this way, eat that way, use the restroom this way, wear your hair this way, wear these types of clothing, say this when this happens, do this when that happens, etc.

reply to post by babloyi


It may seem cliché to you, but any cause of separation or superiority complex resulting from skin color, nationality, gender, knowledge, intellect, wealth, social status, class, caste, religion, belief, opinion, or ideology, etc. is a direct result of Ego.

Liberation from Ego allows one to understand the oneness of mankind and oneness of reality in its totality.

How can liberation from Ego change the world? Well... the same way Islam brought the Arabs out of Ignorance (Jahiliyyah). Each individual person must participate in this 'revolution of the mind,' or evolution of consciousness.

The walls of separation must be torn asunder to pave way for true global brotherhood and peace.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

The church whom Peter was in charge of.

Jesus even said a Samitarian, not just Jews, could keep the two laws. He wasn't teaching just to be good among yourselves but to your neighbors too. Mohammed taught an inversion of Jesus' teachings.

After dying Jesus descended to the realm of the dead to announce the good news. It's even in the apostles 'creed. And on the third day He rose from the dead, just like He claimed He would. Ever heard of Abraham's Bosom?

edit on 3-2-2012 by 547000 because: (no reason given)

Actually, Peter was never in charge of any church. He was an evangelist. The Catholics merely proclaimed him to be, even though Peter died before the creation of the Catholic church.

The RCC says the pope is supposed to be a descendent of Peter, but we know that is not true. The RCC also says the office of the pope is supposed to be the Bishop of Rome, but we have no evidence to support that Peter was, we know he was an evangelist.

The RCC also calls themselves of the Pauline doctrine, which means they base their doctrines on that of Paul, and have made Peter a saint.