A few questions for those of you who hate the Confederate flag

As was done in Europe, slavery could have been easily abolished via Federalized Compensated Emancipation. After years of unbiased exhaustive study on the REAL causes of the Civil War it is abundantly evident to many objective historians that the Confederacy was Constitutionally well within their rights. How would you feel if you were responsible, via European import tariffs, for 80% of Federalized taxation? It is, on par, with the same reasoning for which we Americans justifiably fought the American Revolutionary War against the British Crown. Taxation without representation! How many ill informed Americans are ever taught about the repercussions of Lincoln's Morill Tariff Act of 1861? And for those who are unaware Mr. Lincoln and the Union held as much, if not more a "racist" sentiments as any Confederate! To whom do you attribute this repugnant racist quote?:

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”

--Abraham Lincoln.

History is always written and skewed by the victors. If the average uninformed American had any idea how twisted and biased both past and present events are being passed off as "Truth" to them by the main stream powers it may very well incite another revolutionary war. Here is the truth of the matter presented by New Jersey Judge Andrew Napolitano of Fox News’ “Freedom Watch”



If we know that the Confederate cause was loosely but not primarily based upon the issue of slavery, although it was indeed used by Lincoln as a moral rallying cry for Federalist support and purposefully utilized by the Federalists to garner the “morality” vote, then are we to blanketly confer upon the Confederates that they bore no redeeming qualities or rights, as afforded to them by the Constitution?
Did all the dead who donned the grey hold only malice and racial bigotry in their hearts?
We know as a matter of historical fact that many of the following “truths” are veiled in myth, steeped with broad misconceptions and, perhaps, are painted with too broad a brush for historians and laymen to consider as totally valid:
1. Slavery was a "Southern" institution. (Actually, most of the slave trade was conducted by Northerners, and Northerners owned slaves as well.)
2. Slavery was an attempt solely by the white race to subjugate the black race. (Actually, slave owners were white, black, AND red, and slaves themselves were black, white, AND red).
3. The Civil war was waged by the Northerners to defeat slavery, and the Southerners were motivated solely by a desire to protect slavery. (Actually, slavery was not the primary cause of the war on either side. "States rights" and unconstitutional taxation were indeed major issues; slavery was merely the trigger issue.)
4. The Northern Abolitionists were motivated by goodwill toward blacks. (Actually, anti-black sentiment and racism was much more widespread in the North than in the South. Slavery was not abolished in the North because of any moral conflagration, but primarily because whites wanted to protect jobs for white laborers.)
It can be argued that the residents of the Northern states held as much radical and racial malignancy in their hearts as did the Confederates. We can continue this line of argument by acknowledging the fact that a vast majority of the Founding Fathers were also slave holders. We also know that during WWII tens of thousands Japanese AMERICAN CITIZENS were rounded up and carted off to “Internment” (prision) Camps. This heinous act of barbarism is no less offensive than the enslavement of any other race. However, most Americans have no problem saluting the American Banner. So why then is it that the Stars And Strips are not held in as much villainous contempt as the Confederate Naval Jack? Not unlike the Confederate Stars and Bars so the Stars and Stripes bear the scarlet blood of sin and misdeed. Neither is exempt. And depending on the condition of the individual heart which applauds the efforts of the noble, I see the Confederate Banner and the men who fought this unjust aggression (with the exception of slavery) as a symbol of honor and heritage rather than one of hate.
I, as do many, know and acknowledge the misdeeds of the Confederacy as well as those who lived exemplary lives of devotion, honor and nobility such as Gandhi, Mother Theresa, John Kennedy and MLK Jr. just to name a few contemporaries. As no person or institution is perfect I do not negate or nullify the beauty and positive influence these people embodied and expressed during their lifetimes simply because I am aware of some of the many MAJOR character flaws inherent within each one of these individuals that, if I should name them, it might inflame some to the point of impropriety.
Confederates, for good or bad and Federalists, for good or bad both hold the same measure of guilt and dishonor which abides within the human hearts of all and knows no boundary either north or south of the Mason Dixon Line.
As a strict Constitutionalist I see the actions of Mr. Lincoln as unacceptable and inappropriate.
The Constitution itself clearly states “In good times or bad” the validation of the Constitution must abide and remain intact. Mr. Lincoln did just the opposite and shredded the Constitution. He suspended the First Amendment, instituted military tribunals for the seditious act of simply speaking out against the Union, did away with habeas corpus, imprisoned northern legislators who disagreed with him, vulcanized the secession of West Virginia (I thought secession from the Union was a crime, but not when it gave Mr. Lincoln two more Congressional senators.) Openly approved and condoned the murder, rape, pillaging and torture of innocent young men, women, children and babies in the defeated southern states…just to name a few crimes against humanity and the Constitution. (Please see the video link I posted previously)
I see absolutely no reason why over 620,000 Americans (on any side) had to die in the War of Northern aggression. The repugnant institution of slavery was abolished in over 9 European countries without one of them having to resort to a civil war via Federalized Compensated Emancipation.
The same should have acted as the standard by which we too implemented total and complete emancipation for both south AND NORTH. Please see the writings of Walter D. Kennedy "The South Was Right" and "The Myths Of American Slavery" --- I might also recommend "The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Civil War" by H.W. Crocker and "The Politically Incorrect Guide to the South" by Clint Johnson. Continued...




Mod Note: All Caps – Please Review This Link.

So, I’ll try to reduce the equation down to its most elemental form by simply asking this question.
Why is the institution of American slavery more potent and repugnant than the many other horrific atrocities carried out by those whose banners you honor and salute today?

As I mentioned in my previous post: “It can be argued that the residents of the Northern states held as much radical and racial malignancy in their hearts as did the Confederates. Did all the dead who donned the grey hold only malice and racial bigotry in their hearts?”

I, as do many, know and acknowledge the misdeeds of the Confederacy and, as a comparative measure, may I mention those who lived exemplary lives of devotion, honor and nobility such as Gandhi, Mother Theresa, John Kennedy and MLK Jr. just to name a few contemporaries. As no person or institution is perfect I do not negate or nullify the beauty and positive influence these people embodied and expressed during their lifetimes simply because I am aware of some of the many MAJOR character flaws inherent within each one of these individuals that, if I should name them, it might inflame some to the point of impropriety.

Do you wholly dismiss any hate any of these people whom I’ve named above as evil because of the evil misdeeds of their characters or do you honor and hold them in high esteem? If you hold them in high esteem then I ask why? Have they not all committed acts of revulsion and disdain which should cause one to shun and revile them? Are you not doing the same to the Confederates? Regardless of their misdeeds and evil is there not more nobility, honor and justice in their rudimentary cause?

Taxation without representation. Unconstitutional import tariffs whereby the southern states (with a much lower population than the northern states) were responsible for 75%-80% of all Federal taxation. Union naval blockades posted at each southern port designed to render the southern economy impotent. Unwarranted search and seizure of Confederate property. Forced federalization as apposed to the sovereignty of the individual state as recognized by the Constitution.

Confederates, for good or bad and Federalists, for good or bad both hold the same measure of guilt and dishonor which abides within the human hearts of all and knows no boundary either north or south of the Mason Dixon Line. Why is the atrocity of slavery so wholeheartedly WORSE than all of the horrific, villainous, demonic, hateful, murderous, genocidal acts executed by the Union?

Under the flag that you honor and pledge your allegiance to the following occurred:
A vast majority of the Founding Fathers were slave holders. Profiteering from the sale of human beings and chattel slavery, crossing national boundaries and including sexual services was rampant under the flag that most Americans honor today. Not only that but in n March of 1857, the United States Supreme Court, led by Chief Justice Roger B. Taney, declared that all blacks -- slaves as well as FREE -- were NOT and could never become citizens of the United States. People often forget there had been slaves in all the old colonies. Slaves were auctioned openly in the Market House of Philadelphia, in the shadow of Congregational churches in Rhode Island, in Boston taverns and warehouses, and weekly, sometimes daily, in Merchant's Coffee House of New York. Such Northern heroes of the American Revolution as John Hancock, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, just to name a few bought, sold, and owned black people. William Henry Seward, Lincoln's anti-slavery Secretary of State during the Civil War, born in 1801, grew up in Orange County, New York, in a slave-owning family and amid neighbors who owned slaves if they could afford them. The family of Abraham Lincoln himself, when it lived in Pennsylvania in colonial times, owned slaves.

And what about the Native America Indians?

Under the flag that most Americans honor and pledge their allegiance to the following occurred:
Estimates:
Two studies have been conducted that attempt to number the natives killed by the United States. The first of these was sponsored by the United States government, and while official does not stand up to scrutiny and is therefore discounted (generally); this estimate shows between 1 million to 4 million killed. The second study was not sponsored by the US Government but was done from independent researchers. This study estimated populations and population reductions using later census data. Two figures are given, both low and high, at: between 10 million and 114 million Indians as a direct result of US actions. Please note that Nazi Holocaust estimates are between 6 and 11 million; thereby making the Nazi Holocaust the 2nd largest mass murder of a class of people in history.
REF:
American Holocaust: D. Stannard (Oxford Press, 1992) - "over 100 million killed" "[Christopher] Columbus personally murdered half a million Natives"
God, Greed and Genocide: The Holocaust Through the Centuries: Grenke (New Academia Publishing 2006)
Holocaust: Critical Concepts in Historical Studies: Cesarani, (Routledge 2004)
Read more: wiki.answers.com...

reply to post by lapi7


i dont see what the big deal with the confederate flag, i guess its like the swastika flag as well, people relate it to nazi germany but it had a totally different meaning before that...

no matter how much you educate people on the confederate flag..you'll still get those "dirty" looks while you drive down certain neighborhoods while flying the flag in your car etc..

I think that people who truly hate it, don't really understand it...........

It is a part of history that should be remembered, not made illigal..............

I was born in Illinois but I spent my childhood in Texas then Georgia.........

It is all about heritage and knowing where you came from.......

You should'nt have to be ashamed of it.

I personally think the southern flag is cool, but I think slavery should be a part of the past, remember it, don't hide it.......(yes, slavery is wrong)

Just my .02

Under the flag that most Americans honor and pledge their allegiance to the following occurred:
During WWII tens of thousands Japanese AMERICAN CITIZENS were rounded up and carted off to “Internment” (prision) Camps. This heinous act of barbarism is no less offensive than the enslavement of any other race. A historical fact that is not really "common knowledge" is the fact that, during World War II, over 100,000 Japanese-American individuals, the vast majority of which were actually American citizens, were rounded up and shipped eventually to internment camps. These consisted of poorly-constructed barracks surrounded by barbed wire, sentry posts and armed guards. They were put in these camps, not because they had been tried and found guilty of something, but because either they or their parents or ancestors were from Japan and, as such, they were deemed a "threat" to national security. Unlike Italian and German Americans they were also easily identifiable due to their race. These people were forced to abandon their businesses, their homes and, in many cases, their families as some individuals were taken elsewhere and held, again without trial, for years. The Japanese-Americans suffered severe economic losses, personal humiliation and, in a some cases, death, due to this relocation. The relocation itself was ordered by the then President of the United States, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and by AN ACT OF CONGRESS. The same Congress that we support, uphold and act in compliance to this very day.
Under the flag that most Americans honor and pledge their allegiance to the following occurred:
Mr. Lincoln nullified and shredded the Constitution of the United States. He suspended the First Amendment, instituted military tribunals for the seditious act of simply speaking out against the Union, did away with habeas corpus, imprisoned northern legislators who disagreed with him, vulcanized the secession of West Virginia (I thought secession from the Union was a crime, but not when it gave Mr. Lincoln two more Congressional senators.) Openly approved and condoned the murder, rape, pillaging and torture of innocent young men, women, children and babies in the defeated southern states…just to name a few crimes against humanity and the Constitution. Suggested reading: "War Crimes Against Southern Civilians" by Walter Cisco.
"Lincoln Über Alles: Dictatorship Comes to America" by
John Avery Emison.

So here is my question.
It seems to me that as many if not MANY MORE atrocities and abominations were perpetrated against the human race under the dictates of the Union or American banner than were (as horrible as they were) undertaken by those of the Confederacy.
However, most Americans have no problem saluting and honoring the American flag. Why is this so? Knowing the bloody history of the Union or the United States why then is it then acceptable that the Stars and Strips are not held in as much villainous contempt as the Confederate Naval Jack?
Kindly, and with much respect based on what I have presented I would like to know what your thinking is regarding why the Stars and Stripes are not held in such justifiable disdain and why it seems that ONLY the Confederate banner is.

Seeing that we’re coming up on Presidents Day shortly I thought I'd post this noble anthem in honor of Lincoln's Morill Tariff Act of 1861.



As always, it is often intriguing and stimulating to discuss, debate, inspire new thinking and, as it were, to scratch the proverbial cerebral itch...however, as we have seen the unspeakable horrors to which our species is capable of, in the end, it is always best to hope that such endeavors will enable us to learn from history whereby we might all become more loving, kind, tolerant and compassionate human beings.

I'll just add quickly:

I believe the civil war was fought over taxes and states rights.

Slavery was abolished the day the Constitution was signed. The Emancipation Proclamation was all fluff.

By the way, what does this have to do with the flag?

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
I'll just add quickly:

I believe the civil war was fought over taxes and states rights.

Slavery was abolished the day the Constitution was signed. The Emancipation Proclamation was all fluff.

By the way, what does this have to do with the flag?

Agreed !!!

I am attempting to address the distasteful, venomous and dissenting rhetoric that so very often accompanies those who find no dishonor in flying the Confederate Naval Jack.

Thanks for your input.

History is always written and skewed by the victors.

You hit the nail on the head with that phrase. To Americans (Who where the victors in The Revolution) The Founding Fathers Where Hero's And Freedom Fighters. In reality The Founding Fathers where nothing more than crooks who where looking after their own self interests:-

www.redcoat.me.uk...

reply to post by lapi7


There are those that believe the confederate flag = racism. But their are also people that look at any flag and fall into a patriotic frenzy...confederate or otherwise. They are both wrong.

I do my best to judge people as individuals regardless of what flag they stand beneath.

George Carlin said it best when he said: "I leave symbols to the symbol-minded".

Originally posted by alldaylong
History is always written and skewed by the victors.

You hit the nail on the head with that phrase. To Americans (Who where the victors in The Revolution) The Founding Fathers Where Hero's And Freedom Fighters. In reality The Founding Fathers where nothing more than crooks who where looking after their own self interests:-

www.redcoat.me.uk...

Although I might not agree with your sentiments, as I believe that the Founding Fathers brought forth and vulcanized the almost Divine concept of a Democratic Republic form of government which (in theory) was to be overseen and executed by the populace, I do understand what you are saying.

If one attempts to "view" the RW from the side of the British Crown than all Americans would be categorized as "terrorists" by today's standards.

The stars and bars represent mans enslavement to man, greed, prejudice, and unlawful prosecution. If your for that kind of thing, then this flag is for you.
My Flag has 50 Stars and 13 Strips. My other flag says, "Don't Tread on Me."

My home state of South Carolina has been battling this controversy for quiet awhile now.

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley isn't retreating from her decision to keep the Confederate flag atop the north end of the Statehouse in Columbia despite complaints from the NAACP, whose president this week said the ethnic minority governor is a "contradiction" for allowing the flag to fly. Speaking to a crowd at an NAACP national conference in Los Angeles on Monday, NAACP President Benjamin Jealous attempted to shame Haley into removing the flag by comparing African American slavery to oppression Haley's ancestors in India faced under British rule. Read more: www.foxnews.com...

www.foxnews.com...

It's about heritage not hate!

I know that I have many of my ancestors in the confederate army.

Sometimes I wish that they where successful in secede from the union.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by lapi7

 

There are those that believe the confederate flag = racism. But their are also people that look at any flag and fall into a patriotic frenzy...confederate or otherwise. They are both wrong.

I do my best to judge people as individuals regardless of what flag they stand beneath.

George Carlin said it best when he said: "I leave symbols to the symbol-minded".

edit on 29-1-2012 by sheepslayer247 because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-1-2012 by sheepslayer247 because: (no reason given)

LOL...you opened the door sheepslayer so I'm going to run with it.

What an incredible grasp he had on the human condition, the social arena and the political element as well.

Sheer genius.

Boy....do I ever miss this guy.

WARNING: GRAPHIC LANGUAGE

Lived in the south my whole life and always get irritated at the irrational hatred people spew about the confederate flag. The civil war was not about slavery. The northern states had slaves as well, but people tend to forget that tidbit of history. The civil war was fought over states rights and the unfairness of the agriculture vs industry between the north and south. That was the main reason.

In fact, I get plain sick and tired of the "stigma" surrounding the south. As a professional engineer I travel extensively. The ignorance of northerners astounds me about the south. No, we aren't gonna rise again, no we don't all drive jacked up trucks, yes we have running water and internet and indoor plumbing. And yes, we know the history of the confederate flag better then anywhere else in the country.

And I always get a kick out of this,Gov.Rick Perry wanting Texas to secede from the union.

Gov. Rick Perry: Texas Could Secede, Leave Union

Texas -- Texas Gov. Rick Perry fired up an anti-tax "tea party" Wednesday with his stance against the federal government and for states' rights as some in his U.S. flag-waving audience shouted, "Secede!" An animated Perry told the crowd at Austin City Hall -- one of three tea parties he was attending across the state -- that officials in Washington have abandoned the country's founding principles of limited government. He said the federal government is strangling Americans with taxation, spending and debt.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

And now he is running for the GOP candidate!

Originally posted by Violater1
The stars and bars represent mans enslavement to man, greed, prejudice, and unlawful prosecution. If your for that kind of thing, then this flag is for you.
My Flag has 50 Stars and 13 Strips. My other flag says, "Don't Tread on Me."

It is impossible for any person with an objective viewpoint to make such a blanket statement UNLESS THEY DIDN'T READ MY POST !!!!

Which, obviously you did not.

If you did read my post I then why were you unable to answer the main question I posed in it?

Reread it and please ANSWER THE QUESTION before you simply "see the subject heading" and act with an uninformed, knee jerk reply.

Thank you.

reply to post by lapi7

Starred and flagged, fellow Reb. Great and informative post there. I full agree, having studied a lot on the War of Northern Aggression. That photo in my avatar is my Great Great Grandfather, my family lost all of the family land, and money in that bloody war. The bad thing is, I see it happening again if things don't change soon.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by lapi7

 

Starred and flagged, fellow Reb. Great and informative post there. I full agree, having studied a lot on the War of Northern Aggression. That photo in my avatar is my Great Great Grandfather, my family lost all of the family land, and money in that bloody war. The bad thing is, I see it happening again if things don't change soon.

edit on 1/29/12 by autowrench because: (no reason given)

Thanks for the positive and informative feedback autowrench.

Yes...It can happen again. I and folks like yourself see the storm clouds gathering on the near horizon. God help us.

As with all of those who fought in the War of Northern Aggression may the honor of your Great-Great Grandfather abide in the hearts of the noble and my he rest in Gods perfect peace.

Why is the institution of American slavery more potent and repugnant than the many other horrific atrocities carried out by those whose banners you honor and salute today?

This is the question you asked,am I correct?

Because of visibility and what it represents to those for whom they're ancestors where affected by it.

I understand where you are going with this,as I have been personally attacked because of the naming of my son,Jackson Lee, by an african-american.
Both were family names,I mean,really?

Originally posted by tnhiker
Lived in the south my whole life and always get irritated at the irrational hatred people spew about the confederate flag. The civil war was not about slavery. The northern states had slaves as well, but people tend to forget that tidbit of history. The civil war was fought over states rights and the unfairness of the agriculture vs industry between the north and south. That was the main reason.

The state's right in question, of course, being the right of white people to own black people.
From Georgia's Declaration of Secession:

The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees it its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.

With these principles on their banners and these utterances on their lips the majority of the people of the North demand that we shall receive them as our rulers.

The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization.

The organization referred to above is the Republican Party. Its acquisition of power, and its hostility towards slavery, is what prodded Georgia into secession. In their declaration, the Georgians also complained that the northern states were not enforcing federal laws intended to return fugitive slaves to the slave states--these free states were defying the central authority in the name of liberty--and yet neo-Confederates and lost causers would have us believe the slave states were the ones agitating for states' rights!

Here is some "states' rights" from the great state of Mississippi:

The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory.
...
It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.

It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.
...
It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.

It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.

South Carolina's declaration of secession goes on at length about the injustices done to her by those wicked free states, who refused to return fugitive slaves, then they reject the outcome of the 1860 election:

A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

I guess states rights only matter up until the point a majority of states vote against your interests ... then their rights don't matter.

Texans seemed to think they were already fighting a civil war; they claim insidious abolitionists were mailing "pamphlets and papers" to stir up the black folk. Their resolution is especially telling, and I think speaks for all of the Civil War secessionists:

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

The ignorance of northerners astounds me about the south. No, we aren't gonna rise again, no we don't all drive jacked up trucks, yes we have running water and internet and indoor plumbing. And yes, we know the history of the confederate flag better then anywhere else in the country.

I'll give you the re-erectile dysfunction and the trucks, but the Lost Causers have done a number on your history.