2012 = NOTHING

reply to post by BBalazs


Actually Gronemeyer and MacLeod's paper has received a lot of support from the archaeological community. David Stuart (probably the most well known Mayan expert in the world) praised it and agrees that his original translation of Tortuguero Monument 6 was wrong.

reply to post by Xcalibur254


read to link to the book i quoted.
it is a university guidebook.
the established view OF MOST if not all students of MAYA.
you can challenge the idiots who think the world will end, but please do not challenge the view of those who actually study, studied it. The scientifically accepted view. The one I also learned.
Or you can challenge it if you want, but don't be surprised if you get weird looks, at in the university if you ever choose to actually take a course in it.
If you don't understand the maya stance on cyclicality you will never understand the culture. NEVER.
Not whz the died, not the blood sacrifice, not the monuments.Not why they followed a time cult. Not why they were waiting for white man.
it is this book bz the way: www.amazon.com...

Here is a review of the book: www.historycooperative.org...

Its for those better versed in the maya it writes....guess not you.

reply to post by BBalazs


I've looked through it and I have found from the bibliography that most of the information is out of date. For example I know for a fact that the work of Schele, Miller, Morley, Brainard, Teeple, Tozzer, and definitely Thompson have been revised by later epigraphers. To quote David Stuart from his book Order of Days (which I highly recommend):

I’m of the strong opinion that the Popol Vuh has been overused as the document on Maya religious thought, almost as a template or lens through which we can interpret much of the ancient culture’s art and cosmology

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by BBalazs

 

Actually Gronemeyer and MacLeod's paper has received a lot of support from the archaeological community. David Stuart (probably the most well known Mayan expert in the world) praised it and agrees that his original translation of Tortuguero Monument 6 was wrong.

And I am well aware of the Totugero Monument, but it has NO BEARING on cyclicality.
And there are many different scientific view:
en.wikipedia.org...(Maya_site)

Now in your opinion.
Why would they mark a date in the future?
which makes more sense?
1. some diety is displayed...WHY?
2. it is an important marker, for example jan ends, february begins. cycle.

Why is it important to display a diety?
GEE only ALL of the maya monuments were built on their cosmonology, so this date with its display, is obviously important because of the context of mythology. saying otherwise is like saying, well gee, the mayans made all sorts of random monuments. yeah right.
CONTEXT. it ALL about CONTEXT.
And it has no bearing on cyclicality, which is ingrained in the MAYAn though.
I will spell it out for you.
In JUDEO CHRISTIAN belief, time is linear from the GENESIS onwards...
In most other cultures time is both linear, but there are cycles (nOT EVENTS REPEATING, DUHHH)....
EVEN in MAYA MYTHOLOGY they were in the 4th CYCLE:....do you now, for convenience sake deny MAYA mythology?
Mythology and time are combined in MAYA culture, just as with the greeks.

You are dangerous. You do not know, but you preach. Dangerous.

reply to post by Xcalibur254


its a 2oo5 book. very out of date.

reply to post by Xcalibur254


let me ask you something smart one. do you think that the bible is out of date, as it was complied some 3oo years latter?
do you think GREEK mythology is void, because it was written latter?
thats what you are suggesting.
Fine, write a comprehensive mythology of MAYA culture, with all monuments, etc, without the popul vhul, mythology etc,
Do it already.
it not just popul vhul, but all the writing, context, etc.
Will you take on the GREEKS too with such vehemence?
After all the written accounts of their mythology are much younger then said mythology, hence they MUST BE INACURATE, by your definition.
Seriously you should do it.
You should take on the ROMANS too.
After all, they just stole from the greeks many centuries latter so it too is inaccurate.
funny. you are funny.

another university handbook that has parts on maya cyclicality:
books.google.hu... xEpvv9QB1kyoOmp0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Sc4qT4y2D8Wo4gTt0eWIDg&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=The%20Ancient%20Maya%20%2B%20cyclical%20time%20in%20maya&f=false

btw the popol vhul is mythology that is supported by archeological framework and evidence.
the fact of cyclicality can be established without IT.

It's clear no matter what we're not going to agree. And that's fine. Mayan researchers don't agree on the same topic. Could mine be the alternative theory at present? Sure, but I think as more discoveries are made the more we're seeing that the Popol Vuh primarily represented Aztec beliefs mixed with Christian influence. While there are groups of Maya that certainly have artifacts and inscriptions that support the Popol Vuh there are at least as many that represent creation myths contrary to the Popol Vuh. You agree with the old school that says the Popol Vuh represents Mayan beliefs from the Classic period. I support the new school that says that maybe the Popol Vuh isn't the end all be all. Once again this is fine. It at least shows people that claim that archaeology dismisses alternative theories out of hand are wrong.

reply to post by BBalazs


I will agree that the specific units within the Long Count are cyclical. Once we reach the first piktun we will eventually also have another 13th baktun. However, I still don't see the Long Count as a whole as cyclical. I will however concede that the Maya did place some religious importance on the changing of one baktun into another. This can be seen in the fact that there are monuments dedicated when the baktun changes.

reply to post by Xcalibur254


But we do argree.
Those people who are saying the world will end on december 21st, are idiots, and charlatans.
Thats why I don't understand why I have to come under fire from you, if we are on the same page.
I can defend my views very well, with both logic and reference material, and links.
I am not some nut job, reading the fringe new age material and taking it word for word.
You know I studied this extensively, albeit a long time ago.
So I understand, what those who you quote are saying, and can they be right? sure.
The only problem is that all archeological evidence also suggest a cyclical view of time, and monuments also.
plus their neat little trick with the numbers, doesn't discount cyclicality if you actually think about it...they still entered a new cycle, as per fact, as per their mythology, as per all supporting archeology.
you misunderstand because you view a cycle as self repeating, it is not so!
so they want to put the end sayers right. they should! but they and you should accept, not all of us are idiots.
in fact if you really want, I may be able to get in touch with a professor of maya mythology explaining their cyclical time concept. would you like that?
In fact within the short cycle, they marked cyclic events, thats strong evidence don't you think?
Want me to link archeological evidence that mayans though cyclicly?

after all popol vhul sure lies, so you think, but archeaolgy....it is pretty clear cut. sure you need some interpretation, but not much. anyway have a good one.

reply to post by artistpoet

Sirius is not always equidistant from the Sun.

For all practical purposes it is. The change over time is negligible. It is twice as far away as the closest star.

Regarding your earliier statement about Alignment not causing any affect but that it is gravitional waves -

Gravity wave have never been detected.

Alignments are meaningless.

Jupiter is always same distance from Sun. As is Earth

No. Planets follow an elliptical orbit and the distance changes. See Kepler's laws of planetary motion.

When Jupiter is in alignment with Earth it is far close than when it is not in alignment - Draw yourself a 2d diagram in your head if you want but I am correct so are you in saying about gravitional waves

No. Proximity is not the same as alignments.

Wtf has it do with pyramids by the way.

I actually look at the lunatic claims of the fringe folks to see what they are espousing. It makes no sense of course, but it is fun to view.

reply to post by artistpoet

God you are so rude

When people make claims that are patently false it is not rude to tell them they are mistaken.

2012 equals Nothing is such a dumb and provocative statement - Cant you see that.

It is far less provocative than the lunatic claims of the 2012 crowd.

2012 is something it is the year we live in and what ever it brings whatever that may be.

To say that 2012 = nothing is a succinct means of stating that there is much to do about nothing.

reply to post by stereologist


Your wrong Mr - There is no Mayan prophesy.
If you insist there is then prove it

reply to post by artistpoet


I'm not sure where your confusion lies but there is no Mayan prophecy. You are very wrong to suggest that I have made any statement that there is one.

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by artistpoet

 

I'm not sure where your confusion lies but there is no Mayan prophecy. You are very wrong to suggest that I have made any statement that there is one.

Stereo I totally agree there is absolutely no Mayan prophecy. It's all about making coin in my opinion. I think all of us that have any sense should throw a kegger and watch the less educated or just ignorant go crazy while we do leg stands like I did in college lol.

reply to post by swampcricket


I'm not thinking less intelligent. I'm thinking more along the lines of more willing to buy into wild tales.

This kid tells another one that his new school bus is equipped with video games for the ride. The receiver of the story buys into it and complains to his parents that they should get the school to upgrade all of the buses. Less intelligent? No. Gullible? You betcha!

Hi everyone,

I didn't know what thread to post in as I'm a new member and can't make topics or post in pinned threads yet. I figured I would post in this 2012 = Nothing topic as my comment is about this subject.

I recently read a book which includes an examination of the 2012 phenomenon: Apocalypse Not: Everything You Know About 2012, Nostradamus and the Rapture is Wrong by John Michael Greer. It was a great read, he explores the subject of humanity's obsession with apocalyptic/benevolent predictions. He has also started a weekly feature on his blog titled "The End of the World of the Week Club" - which will contain a failed prediction from history every week until December 21, 2012 of this year.

John has written a lot of books about many topics including ufos, magic, Atlantis, secret societies, etc so you might find his other works interesting, here is a bibliography and more info. I mention this because I have found his writing style on various topics to be clear and of substance, and it has helped to demystify certain subjects.

So if you are looking for something less fear and hysteria based and profit motivated, but more rational and analytical in its approach to the 2012 and other endless predictions you might like the book. It was a good read for me personally as like many others, I grew up in a family and culture where apocalyptic ideas were pushed onto me with no honest explanation.

Also, since the 2012 prediction is mainly derived from the Maya, specifically the 13th Bak'tun from the Tortuguero Monument 6 inscription from the Tortuguero site in Tabasco, Mexico, it would probably be wise to thoroughly explore this inscription from as many perspectives and fields of study as possible. I haven't searched though all of the threads on Ats about this so if anyone has any relevant threads, posts, other websites, etc that do this then please share them.

I recently came across a 2010 study by Sven Gronemeyer and Barbara MacLeod, a long scholarly pdf article which you can download and read for free here. This is an academic study so naturally it can be difficult and boring for some, but that's one reason why some people don't want to do deeper research with this particular prediction, because it takes a lot of real work to examine it in detail. I'm not too academically inclined myself and don't always agree with academic theories but it's still worth checking them out.

There is also an interesting website which has compiled various apocalyptic predictions throughout history: A Brief History of the Apocalypse, which also has a Beyond 2012 section. If anyone can recommend any similar books, videos, websites, etc like the ones I've mentioned then that would be great to counter all the misleading information out there.

I am in the "nothing will happen" camp as well. I think it will be just like Y2K and that preacher who declared the rapture was coming a few months back. My biggest concern is mass hysteria which I do think could cause a lot of problems. God forbid the power goes out and people will go nuts. I've already booked a cabin with some friends for the 21st of december, not because I think the world will end but because I do not want to be at my apartment in a metro area if peoples fears get the best of them. I just don't understand the end of the calendar meaning anything but an end to a cycle of time. Mayan's, like any civilization, didn't plan on dying out so I think they just planned on making another calendar once theirs ended, they just never got the chance. After all when my calendar runs out I buy a new one, I don't assume the end of the world is nigh.