What if Kerry wins and the US immediately pulls out like everyone wants?

Ok...a simple what if....

If Kerry wins and promised to pull out of Iraq (Which he won't and he has said as much) what happens to Iraq?

You constantly see all these protests of "Bring the troops home!" and " US out of Iraq!".

Now, reality...Regardless of your opinion of the War, we ARE there right now. Nothing can change that. The International community, apart from the countries alreay there, wants no part in a rebuilding of Iraq. NO Kerry deal could get France, Russia, and Germany to send troops to Iraq. Asking for Middle Eastern countries to help would show weakness, and they probably would have the same opinion as the French, Germans, and Russians.

So, for all of the anti-war persons out there...What are we supposed to do? Now? Not we shouldn't be there....we are....what now?

Wont happen. Kerry has even said that it wouldnt.

If we just pulled out right now, the entire country of Iraq would go to hell. The only thing holding it together right now is our presence. Like it or not, we are stuck there until Iraq gets a military built up, government in place and functioning fully and independantly, and can control the insurgents themeslves. As of now, they cannot do that.

The same thing that happened in Vietnam when Kerry screamed
'pull out now' 'pull out now'.

He went on national television and said that we had to pull out
immediately. When asked about what would happen to those
left behind, Kerry said 'ONLY 5,000 would die'.

(I think 5,000 dead are more than 'only')

As it turns out, 3.5 million Vietnamese died. 3.5 million. It
was a bloodbath. The killing fields overflowed.

He doesn't have the best judgement in these matters, does he?

If we pulled out of a Iraq today, there would be civil war. The current government would stand for a time, but the war would split Iraq into it's old factions. Then it would just be another Lebanon with Muslim factions killing other Muslim factions, all bidding for power.

But unfortuneatly, the same thing will happen a year from now if we pull out. And 5 years after that. Only after will kill every "true believer" and replace them with passive imitators will we be able to leave.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The same thing that happened in Vietnam when Kerry screamed
'pull out now' 'pull out now'.

He went on national television and said that we had to pull out
immediately. When asked about what would happen to those
left behind, Kerry said 'ONLY 5,000 would die'.

(I think 5,000 dead are more than 'only')

As it turns out, 3.5 million Vietnamese died. 3.5 million. It
was a bloodbath. The killing fields overflowed.

He doesn't have the best judgement in these matters, does he?

I dont understand, what you are saying is that US polled out and it died 3.5 million because of that??

So, for all of the anti-war persons out there...What are we supposed to do? Now? Not we shouldn't be there....we are....what now?

Release the economical grip and countrys will be standing in line for building it up.


[edit on 14-9-2004 by Kollapse]

[edit on 14-9-2004 by Kollapse]

Originally posted by soulforge
Ok...a simple what if....

If Kerry wins and promised to pull out of Iraq (Which he won't and he has said as much) what happens to Iraq?

You constantly see all these protests of "Bring the troops home!" and " US out of Iraq!".

Now, reality...Regardless of your opinion of the War, we ARE there right now. Nothing can change that. The International community, apart from the countries alreay there, wants no part in a rebuilding of Iraq. NO Kerry deal could get France, Russia, and Germany to send troops to Iraq. Asking for Middle Eastern countries to help would show weakness, and they probably would have the same opinion as the French, Germans, and Russians.

So, for all of the anti-war persons out there...What are we supposed to do? Now? Not we shouldn't be there....we are....what now?

Please forgive me for sounding rude but you sound very, very ignorant.
My friend - thousands of US soldiers have lost limbs from the bombings
in Iraq. They continue to have their arms and legs blown away weekly.

There are 7000 + US casualities.

Americans who wish to keep them over their will not be visiting them in VA hospitals; we all know this for a fact. We saw it all before during the Vietnam War and Americans have not changed since that time. If anything they've become *more* spoiled & selfish.

Ground troops cannot fight off muslim extremists. Simple.

Am immediate withdrawal will prevent other US soldiers from becoming amputees. It will minimize the number of Iraqi civilians from being blown to bits.

Why? Because our being there gives muslim extremists even more of an excuse to get their kicks hurling bombs. It's very simple, really. Why are Americans so slow???

You are right about Iraq being a mess from here on out, though.
This was an abortion from the start. Not because of our military personnel - because it *wasn't necessary.* NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION HAVE BEEN FOUND. Bottom line. Simple.

The first step in attempting to rectify this disgusting situation is to get the troops home. The world is looking at us and saying: "Damn...those Americans didn't learn a thing from Vietnam. They really DON'T care about
their servicemembers."

If you think this isn't occuring you are wrong. Our keeping the troops abroad makes us look VERY bad.

We need to show the world we aren't the spoiled, self absorbed lot
Bin and every US hating extremist depicts us as. Sadly, though, I'm beginning to think most Americans ARE apathetic idiots.





[edit on 14-9-2004 by bushblows]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The same thing that happened in Vietnam when Kerry screamed
'pull out now' 'pull out now'.

He went on national television and said that we had to pull out
immediately. When asked about what would happen to those
left behind, Kerry said 'ONLY 5,000 would die'.

(I think 5,000 dead are more than 'only')

As it turns out, 3.5 million Vietnamese died. 3.5 million. It
was a bloodbath. The killing fields overflowed.

He doesn't have the best judgement in these matters, does he?

I think he went on TV after Nixon already announced it was the goal to reduce US troops and hand over control to the South. The 'Vietnamization' plan.

In regards to the number of dead, the number of Vietnamese soldiers who died during the war is said to be 1.1 million. www.rjsmith.com...
The number of civilians killed during the war was also in the millions.

If the troops had been pulled earlier on, the number of deaths could have been far fewer. If the war had continued, they could have been far greater.

I would like to see your links on the number of dead after the withdrawal.


With regards to Iraq, I don't think the number of dead will be any lower if the US remains after the elections vs if they leave after the elections.

One thing that probably will happen though, if there is chaos after the elections and people keep dying, the pro-war people will most likely continue saying we need to stay. They'll never see it as a good time to leave.
The fact that many wish the US had stayed longer in Vietnam proves that.

If there is a pullout and chaos follows, the pro-war people will just blame those who spoke out against the war by saying something like 'are you happy now, you got what you wanted and look what happened?' even though those events would have likely happened anyway.

[edit on 14-9-2004 by AceOfBase]

Originally posted by AceOfBase
I think he went on TV after Nixon already announced it was the goal to reduce US troops and hand over control to the South.

The number of civilians killed during the war was also in the millions.

I would like to see your links on the number of dead after the withdrawal.

Yes, he said it after Nixon. Both he and Nixon ended up being
VERY wrong.

Yes, the number of civilians killed during the war was in the millions.
That's the number I'm talking about. Mostly about the civilians and
the killing fields after the war.

Links? No links, just books. I suppose I could google around and
find some links for you. But I am working off books.

Sometimes bad things happen when you do the right thing, but you have to do it. We cannot win in Iraqi. We could not win in Vietnam. In Vietnam, the only people to blame are the administrations who pursued the war, and covered up the facts about the war. The two who deserve the most credit are Johnson and Nixon.

Iraq can only be blamed on George W. Bush, and whoever advised him to go there.

In Vietnam, it was clear to many Americans that the war was wrong. Wrong is wrong! Yet, somehow the Republicans have turned it into an heroic epic of America vs. evil, completely ignoring the massive attrocites, and even COMING AGAINST someone who did the right thing by speaking out. There is nothing wrong with the truth! Even if it hurts, we deserve the truth! I don't like John Kerry, but he is a hero, for both his service in combat, and his actions at home.

Originally posted by Kollapse
Release the economical grip and countrys will be standing in line for building it up.

Sorry.... Why should France or Germany benifit from our losses. No, they chose to not participate, nor should they get the contracts to rebuild.

To be fair, Kerry has said he would not pull out and that he could do a better job. That being said, his plan has few in the way of details. Cozying up to France is likely one of them IMHO.

You might as well ask this:

Ok...a simple what if....

If Bush wins and promised to pull out of Iraq (Which he won't and he has said as much) what happens to Iraq?

You constantly see all these protests of "Bring the troops home!" and " US out of Iraq!".

Now, reality...Regardless of your opinion of the War, we ARE there right now. Nothing can change that. The International community, apart from the countries alreay there, wants no part in a rebuilding of Iraq. NO Bush deal could get France, Russia, and Germany to send troops to Iraq. Asking for Middle Eastern countries to help would show weakness, and they probably would have the same opinion as the French, Germans, and Russians.

So, for all of the anti-war persons out there...What are we supposed to do? Now? Not we shouldn't be there....we are....what now?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Yes, the number of civilians killed during the war was in the millions.
That's the number I'm talking about. Mostly about the civilians and
the killing fields after the war.

Links? No links, just books. I suppose I could google around and
find some links for you. But I am working off books.

It was my impression that many, if not the vast majority of those, were killed before the pullout.



[edit on 14-9-2004 by AceOfBase]

It seems to me that the two replys for pulling out are among the most selfish, uncaring plans I've heard. Too many American dead yes. Too many Iraqis dead yes.

Bushblows wants to abort the whole country if Iraq, as long as we don't get ourselves hurt....possible humanitarian loving liberal solution...lol

Ace of Base at least sees the relative hopelessness of the situation, but doesn't see a solution...

But, man...these are human beings being blown up over there. Human beings that will have their lives WORSE off without us there right now. Sure, we could pull out, sit around the U.N. general assembly, drink tea and sing dismay at the chaos that arrived because of our withdrawl. We could just rationalize that it's only an islamic state now, and they are half a world away. We could leave it to the U.N. to fix it......

yeah...like they fixed the abuses in Taliban Afganistan...

yeah...like they fixed genocide in Bosnia...

yeah...like they are fixing the genocide in Sudan....

Is it worse to try and fail or falter, or fret, or to not try at all?

The U.N. and Europe often seem a lot like a tale told by an idiot.

Full of sound and Fury, signifying nothing...

Replace Life with the U.N. below and think about it...

Life�s but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
William Shakespeare, Macbeth, act 5, scene 5

Originally posted by curme
So, for all of the anti-war persons out there...What are we supposed to do? Now? Not we shouldn't be there....we are....what now?

First of all, I don't want anyone to think that because you think it was wrong to go to war with Iraq with no reason, makes you anti-war. Just want that to be clear. Me, and most people are fully supportive of just wars where we are defending ourselves. But to go to war with a country and lie to our citizens about why we went, well, that's just wrong.

Next, I have made the point that we are not going to stabilize Iraq without destroying their fundamentalist Islamic beliefs. It doesn't matter what we do, what we say, who we put in charge, we will always be Infidels because we are a non-Muslim force occipying holy Islamic land. Under force, and threat of destruction, we can get Iraqis to work together for a time, but Iraq is made up of factions. These factions strive for control. In fact, the entire middle east is made up of factions. Iraq's factions are most closely related to Lebanon, because they are fairly euqally proportioned (which is a bad thing). In Lebanon, we stepped in to "fix" their country. They have been in civil war ever since. Factions constantly attack one another for control of the country, or various land. Iraq will have the same problem, because it's the same people. If we left today, Iraq would have a civil war. If we left 10 years from now, Iraq would have a civil war. Why should we stay? Has the administration shown any plan whatsoever for stopping this? Other than wipping out all true-believers and replacing them with imitators, I don't know that it's possible.

oh god, oh poor americans, the world hate u.....
no we dont hate u we just despize the ignorance desplayed by your goverment, the people who let them come to power, the people who let them stey in power.
your greatly flawed and undemocratic system, your bias media, (who by any standard in wartime or otherwise would be conidered propanganda)
your goverments determination to reentroduce religion as a political power. ex remove abortion, homosexual rights, supporting organasations like "the silver ring thing" you show the greatest of arrogance when you ignore international law like: human rights laws, openly lie to the world, time and time again. and you ignore the rules of war. are are but a few thing people tend to get hung up on....
etc etc etc.

basicly its the hypocracy, you stand for freedom, yet you suppress your own citizens, not to mention people in other countries. you fight religius extreemism, yet your goverment does it can to reunite church and state.
you preach human rights and comdem nations like iraq for braking them, yet you freely snathc people from other countries, keep them inprisoned without due prosess and tortue them for information....

got to go will correct grammar later

I picture Iraq as a dam. We shot a HUGE hole thru it and almost immidiately tried to plug it, but little by little the water trickles out over the countryside. If we were to pull out it would be like unplugging ourselves from the HUGE hole we created. This would allow a flood of disaster to happen. So, take my metaphor however you want. As bad as it was for us to go in, it will be very bad if we up and leave immidiately.

If the US retreats it will be complete chaos in iraq
they mustn't retreat
otherwise why does the us maintain an army of over a milion men?

Originally posted by mpeake
I picture Iraq as a dam. We shot a HUGE hole thru it and almost immidiately tried to plug it, but little by little the water trickles out over the countryside. If we were to pull out it would be like unplugging ourselves from the HUGE hole we created. This would allow a flood of disaster to happen. So, take my metaphor however you want. As bad as it was for us to go in, it will be very bad if we up and leave immidiately.

Well, I would agree with that except to add something to your metaphor. Imagine the hole we shot, cracked the entire dam. And while leaving it along, the entire thing would go. Or by plugging it, we slow down the leak, and delay the cracking of the dam. But it is impossible to stop. No matter if we leave today, or wait 20 years. So what do we do? Continue sending soldiers? Look at Vietnam. Knowing we couldn't win in Vietnam, we continued to send soldiers. Continued to fight. America was split into half at home, and many soldiers lost their lives, and in the end, we left. There was no victory. What if we left sooner? We would have saved thousands of lives, and the same result would have occured.

I really think you wouldn't see much difference in what was happening on the ground in Iraq if Kerry won. He as others had said will not pull out anyway.

I think the only difference you may notice is a more diplomatic approach to relations with other nations.

also the person who said it would go to hell..hasn't it already?