EVOLUTION - Did YOU Know?

Originally posted by GonzoSinister
Can someone please at some point produce a valid argument for creationism that doesnt just go...


Jews...Bible...Faith....

Premise 1: Whatever begins to exist has a cause

Premise 2: The universe began to exist

Conclusion: The universe has a cause

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Evolution --> Evolve --> Change

Everything evolves in this Universe, except what? The answer is simple, the code which the Universe was designed through. That code defines the Universe and how it behaves, we can actually observe that code through Mathematics. Where did that code come from? Who designed the code the way it is, in order for it to form this Universe? Was it no one? Did the code itself design itself then design the Universe in response? That wouldn't make sense to most human beings, because in order for the code to design itself, it has to be intelligent first --> hence intelligent design.

Originally posted by insaan
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Evolution --> Evolve --> Change

Everything evolves in this Universe, except what? The answer is simple, the code which the Universe was designed through. That code defines the Universe and how it behaves, we can actually observe that code through Mathematics. Where did that code come from? Who designed the code the way it is, in order for it to form this Universe? Was it no one? Did the code itself design itself then design the Universe in response? That wouldn't make sense to most human beings, because in order for the code to design itself, it has to be intelligent first --> hence intelligent design.

Isaiah said it best in this verse:

Isaiah 46:10

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

How can we know the end from the beginning? Language is one. We also see the beast of Carbon in Revelation as the thing to overcome. 6 electrons, 6 protons and 6 neutrons is Carbon, the mark of mankind, and the ingredient to the graven image of technology. We are to overcome with the Word of God. The word is spoken by the breath. Nitrogen is 777 on the atomic scale and oxygen is 888 on the atomic chart. 777 is God's number of completion. 888 is Jesus in Greek gematria. Language is Word and also what God calls Christ--the Living Word. Word in flesh.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Again, we see in the beginning in Genesis 1 and we see it at the end from John with the first verse. We then hear from the prisoner in the Cave stating that we must overcome the Carbon (666-graven fruit of knowledge) with the Word.

Really, how can an Atheist embrace the darkness over such the light that shines? I can only shine the light as bright as I can.

Let me get this straight, evolutionary theory requires a leap of faith, and creationism doesn't? Because we don't have ALL OF THE ANSWERS, which science most likely never will have, we should put our faith in a work of fiction? Right. Okay. Hey guys, let's not try to understand our situation, how we came to be, why we're here, etc, let's just bathe in our own feces and praise ignorance until death.

This kind of reasoning is a major part of why I've lost all faith in the human race.

As for the YouTube clip:
HuRr DutrRRrR DUrrRRurrr *chuckle* GOD IZ REEL GOIYZ SEE HOU SHIENSE IZ FLAWED ??? SEE ?!?? HERE IZ SUM OF DEM FAKTZ DAT I DOENT BACK UP WITT SORESES. DEY R TRU BCOUSE DEY FURDURrRrrrRR MY AGENDA LOL!!! *chuckle* *chuckle* YOU LYEK STAR WARZ? WELL HEAR IZ SUM OF DAT SKROLLING TEKCHT 4 YUU STAR WAR FANZ WIT SUM MAOR OF DEM FAKTZ DAT I MAYDE UP HEY DID YUU ALSO NOE DAT DA ERTH IZ FLAT SHIENSE IZ A SHAMM LOL DA BIIBLE IZ DA TROOOT BECOZ JESHOOSH ROTE IT DARWIN IZ DA DEVIL I'M OUT HAVE 2 GO BEET MY HEAD INTO A WALL REPEATEDLY BRAIN CELLZ R NOT REEL BCOUSE SHIENCE IZ FAYK LOL! PEASCE!

By god we'd be bankrupt and homeless. Perhaps not a bad thing, considering we're headed there regardless. The key to understanding lies within science and research. Science is never perfect, hence why there are never absolutes or truths within science, only theories, which stand until they are proven false. If evolutionary theory is flawed, of which there is a possibility, it is absolutely imbecilic to immediately jump to the conclusion that Creationism is fact. Sorry, but the argument of "if it's not black, it must be white," does not apply here. If there is a flaw within evolutionary theory, it will be ironed out through science and research, not children's stories and myths.

The main problem with your argument is that there is actual evidence to support evolutionary theory; there is absolutely no evidence to support creationism, besides a book that claims the Earth was created around 10,000 years ago (or is it 6,000?). If you were suggesting something even outlandish, such as human's being engineered by aliens, you would have more merit than your "god was right all along" argument.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Not possible. Linguistics is a system that is designed with a high degree of complexity.

Human intelligence is of a high degree of complexity.

There is more math contained in each letter than we possessed as cave men. See it yourself.

It wasn't the cave men who first invented an alphabet. They used pictures and such to communicate. But as humanity progressed, from nomads to civilization, from the stone age to the bronze age, so did our system of commication which became more intelligent. The alphabet was invented by intelligent design, and those who designed it were humans.

Your whole argument is based around the premise that somthing like the alphabet is to complex to be made by humans. That something like life is to complex to be an accident. You are simply looking for purpose to life and you use any justification to find it.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


I think that you should read this and know what the true meaning of the bible is in Hebrew.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

With that being said I would also like to say that i believe "the creator"(whoever you wish it to be) knew about this before the bible was written and these were part of the teachings enstillled as a way for humanity to unlock it's own secrets.

so, skimming through this thread, a few thoughts occur
not in order and i've probably forgotten some
[i should start taking notes while i read threads] but anyway.

first, what relevance do those numbers/letters have? if we were books i could see the link
but we are creatures, shambling bags of unstable and constantly shifting chemical soup.
everything everywhere can be counted and i can assure without checking that there are other coincidental combinations.
why hebrew? why not, say, japanese? they've been around in some form or another for just as long. and look! there are 48 characters in the hiragana alphabet; minus two because we have two chromosomes and there is your magic 46 again.

please try and refrain from using bible quotes as proof.
i know that you believe it is true
and i'm not here to say it isn't
but you have to admit it's not exactly independently verifiable is it?
if i showed up posting from the Big Book of Schizophrenic Science
and then saying that the truth had been revealed to the authors and you are just going to have to take our word
how long would it take for me to be shot for trolling?
regardless of our personal faiths, in the interests of fairness i call both books off limits.

not even touching that analog/digital thing.

whenever people bring up intelligent design my thoughts turn inexorably to childbirth.
are you telling me that GOD in all his glory and wisdom decided that
forcing children through our genitals
was not only an acceptable method
but the very best available?
how about that our windpipe crosses our gullet?
also for someone infinite there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought put into body plans.
pretty much everything has that whole tube with head/anus at either end, arms and legs off the spine business....
unless we were just something he threw together between beetles
beetles are the ones He really loves.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Read Why Evolution is True, and you won't doubt that evolution is a fact. There is so much evidence that it's undeniable. There's the fossil record which accurately matches predictions made as to what fossils would be found where and at what time period, experiments done in the lab that actually create different species through animals with short lifetimes and quick reproduction, evidence through the form of traits shared between groups of animals, vestigial organs, the list goes on.

The only evidence backing creationism is a book of magic stories that contradicts dozens of other books of magical stories. I'll stick with objective, unbiased, evidence based science that holds up to scrutiny in the scientific community.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Science lacks a single formula to describe how life originated. Any theory worth considering must contain measurable formulas to describe what is being studied.

This is simply not true. I don't know what you mean by "formula", but there are several different theories as to how the first life form could have originated, and these have yielded very successful results in the labs.

Evolution cannot be measured.

Well if by that you mean in your -100 year lifespan, you cannot witness full blown evolution, you're correct. The thing is evolution takes immense periods of times, far longer than the time that humanity has began recording history.

However even in our tiny amount of time being on this planet throughout its history, we have witnessed wolves being bred into all of the different dog breeds. We've seen sheep get thicker and thicker wool through artificial selection, cows produce quantities of milk far greater than what they were previously able to due to the same process. There have even been experiments which have created two seperate species that can no longer interbreed.

That's like saying because we can't see a star form and die, that means stars don't form and die. Even though humans can't live billions of years to watch this whole process play out, we can see different stars at different stages of their lives, and put the pieces together to understand how they form and die.

That's analogous to the study of evolution, because although we can't witness an animal change forms drastically since humans don't live millions of years, we can still piece together the fossil record and use all of the other evidence backing evolution in order to piece together a theory as to how life has evolved over time.

Intelligent design, however, can be measured and verified.

Don't kid yourself. I'm sorry to be so blunt about it, but this thread is a joke. Evolution has decades worth of research and evidence in every form from fossils to lab studies to simply looking at the anatomy of creatures around the globe, and all of this has been put together to come to the most logical explanation.

It's all of that, which has stood the test of time and remained the most widely accepted scientific theory of how all the different forms of life we see today have came about, against your comparison of the numbers in an alphabet to the number of amino acids. :shk:

I'll tell ya what, I'll put together a thread that uses just a tiny fraction of the evidence used in that one book that I mentioned about evolution, and even that will completely destroy any biblical quotes or whatever other garbage you can pull out of your ass to back up your fairy tale of intelligent design.

Evolution is tricky. I know that they found the oldest human remains in Ethiopia and it had monkey like features, but i still choose to believe in God just in case lol.

Originally posted by BBalazs
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Yes!
We are designed!
By nature, then the universe!
Its pretty much a fact.

Intelligence is not a result of nature. Nature is a result of intelligence.
lets break it down real simple like... Forgive me if I miss a step.
Where did humans come from? They evolbed from monkeys.
Ok, then where did monkeys come from? They evolved from rodents.
Ok, then where did rodents come from? They evolved from from fish that grew legs.
Ok, then where did fish come from? They evolved from amoebas.
Ok, then where did amoebas come from? Spontaneously organizing elements?
you can put a collection of all the necessary elements that make up any living single cell organism in a box for eternity, add all the catalyst, heat, combustion, chemical reaction you want, but they will never arrange themselves into a protobiont. This would require the formation of rna, the collection of other organic matter, and convenient enclosure of that collection of elements within a barrier of lipids to all occur simultaneously. Otherwise, none of these formations are capable of standalone existance. The conditions necessary to cause the formation of any one of those would cause the chemical makeup of the other two to breakdown.

Even then, supposing all necessary elements did spontaneously arrange themselves into a complex form of a successful organism... by chance, where does the autonomy come from. Isnt every living thing autonomous by definition. And that, im afraid, is not composed of elements.

I agree, more or less. If you're like me, you've laid in bed at night having this circular argument with yourself:

If there were no universe, then there'd be no life, and with no life, then there would be nothing to experience. But there MUST be life in order to experience consciousness, therefore there MUST be a universe, or a realm in which to experience it. Since there IS a universe and I AM conscious, then it must have always existed, and always will exist.

Think about it too long and it scares the hell out of you.

Therefore, life/God exists because it MUST. Simple as that.

Now excuse me, I need a drink.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Not to put a damper on your parade, but western script has it's origins in the Phoenician written language.

www.phoenician.org...

Still, an interesting read.

reply to post by TomServo

Intelligence is not a result of nature. Nature is a result of intelligence.

Brilliantly put.

second.

Hi all, we are definitely "designed"!

Come on guys, get serious. This had nothing to do with the bible or the Hebrew alphabet. I day this with all respect.

Modern man appeared some 200.000 years ago, the Cro Magnon type, our direct ancestor. Before that? Ape-like hominids, which have much lesser brain volume than modern man and/or Neanderthals.
By the way, Neanderthals were not our anchestors, we co-lived with them in Europe and Asia, for a while. They also appeared out of the blue.

Do you ever have heard about the "missing link"? Scientists miss the link between Hominids and modern man. The gap is too beg to be explained, on the other hand, evolution needs much much more to develop a species such as the modern man. Actually, in scientific terms, we did not appear over night, but within a few minutes (looking back in the evolution down to the Devonian Explosion some 500 million years ago.

Have ever asked yourself why we are different than apes? Why we have no body hair as all other mammals? We appeared and had to be able to make cloth and use (manufacture!!) tools. Right from the scratch! And use fire.

No guys, with my common sense I do not believe what they all say (i.e. scientists). Clay tablets found in todays Iraq (Babylon) tell us another story. Why clay tablets? They are up to 6 thousand years old and the contain the first by man written down stories, mathematic rules, accounting systems etc. etc. Scientists are astonished and can not explain these over night appearance without any predecessor.

They talk about gods, came down in sky-ships from the stars. They called themselves Annunaki, hundreds of them. And they needed labors. They made the Adamu, men. Not one, but hundreds.

That is amazing because these texts are much older than the bible texts. Interested to read the stories. Zecharia Sitching has done research. Read his books. Where to find? Search them on internet by using Google.
Amazing.... the Annunaki appeared 200.000 years ago!

Good luck,

Oliver

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Remember, I am making my point WITH science, not against.

No you aren't. You are using philosophy and the bible, while throwing some scientific facts around that have nothing to do with ID. That is NOT science. Your response to my concerns about problems in human design was not addressed at all. So I offered a scientific debate, challenging for scientific evidence of the design process or designer and you didn't respond. I even offered a philosophical debate (which I don't usually do) and my points within were ignored. There isn't much I can say.

Really, how can an Atheist embrace the darkness over such the light that shines? I can only shine the light as bright as I can.

What darkness and what light? You are making stuff up to fit your opinion of the world. No evidence suggests there is any metaphysical light or darkness (good/evil). Rejecting your silly version of god is logical, not satanic. How can an atheist embrace something he thinks doesn't exist? That is illogical, captain.

Originally posted by chr0naut
Prezbo, please read the title of this forum.

The OP is in the right place for its content.

Unfortunately the content in the OP is mostly false and has been proven wrong by science.

Premise 1: Whatever begins to exist has a cause

Premise 2: The universe began to exist

Conclusion: The universe has a cause

Now prove your premises, lol. Prove the universe 'began' to exist. There is no proof at all that the big bang was the beginning of the universe. It was the beginning of what we know as the universe today, but it is impossible to study anything that happened prior.

reply to post by Barcs

Now prove your premises, lol. Prove the universe 'began' to exist. There is no proof at all that the big bang was the beginning of the universe. It was the beginning of what we know as the universe today, but it is impossible to study anything that happened prior.

Carry that one step further. No matter in the universe has ever been in the same state twice. The earth has never been in the same part of space twice. Neither has the galaxy. Time has never been in the same moment twice. All matter is in a constant state of flux and movement. Science has never made the same observation twice that was not part of a governed law keeping matter in a specific form according to predetermined design and purpose. The big bang would have started our universe in a high state of order, evenly distributed in all directions. All that would have existed in the prima materia of energy in a high state of order and vibration. Entropy would have been as low as possible, like an extremely hot cup of coffee.

From that moment to now, all reality, according to science, has been in a chaotic motion as entropy increased. Are you saying that purpose shows up in all matter simply on its own over time? Is this what science would have us believe, despite the fact that no matter has ever been the same twice, or even in the same place twice?

Form and function come from information. Purpose comes from intent. Intention is a will to survive. Intent is by design. Either case will not allow for complex organization with purpose unless there is a designed intent. Matter can only change states by collapsing wave function. Wave function collapse must be accompanied by consciousness or it is simply random chaos in motion. Entropy in information theory negates the possibility of a chaotic system to self-organize on the level we see in nature. The presence of consciousness is what sets matter apart from animated matter. It is a mathematical certainty that bits of information will degrade quicker than they can collapse the indeterminate wave of probability. The fact that dimensions are observable toward this purpose demonstrates a higher level of organization behind what we experience on an observable scale.

Nothing can rise above its source. Life is an exception. In nature, all streams run away from their source and all things in motion change states to return and repeat the cycle. Humans are vastly more complex than the sun, yet the sun is our source according to science. Life is the exception to entropy in information. As it is easily seen that we are more than what science calls our source, we can deduce that our source is not the system we occupy. It is greater than ourselves. We are greater than what is around us. Consciousness creates matter.

Originally posted by Barcs

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Remember, I am making my point WITH science, not against.

No you aren't. You are using philosophy and the bible, while throwing some scientific facts around that have nothing to do with ID. That is NOT science. Your response to my concerns about problems in human design was not addressed at all. So I offered a scientific debate, challenging for scientific evidence of the design process or designer and you didn't respond. I even offered a philosophical debate (which I don't usually do) and my points within were ignored. There isn't much I can say.

Really, how can an Atheist embrace the darkness over such the light that shines? I can only shine the light as bright as I can.

What darkness and what light? You are making stuff up to fit your opinion of the world. No evidence suggests there is any metaphysical light or darkness (good/evil). Rejecting your silly version of god is logical, not satanic. How can an atheist embrace something he thinks doesn't exist? That is illogical, captain.

edit on 26-1-2012 by Barcs because: (no reason given)

What creates the oak tree? Does the information in the acorn created the oak tree from matter, or does the matter around the acorn create the oak tree? Information creates the oak tree is your answer. Matter could care less what it's used for. Where does the information to form come from? Where does the purpose of the oak tree for the other life come from?

There are 900 species of fig wasp. Each fig tree needs a specific fig wasp to germinate the tree for fruit production. The fig tree has been observed with fig wasps in the fossil record going back 34 million years. There are 900 species of both tree and wasp. The fig wasps of the fossil record are the same as the ones today. Explain. That's 34 million years of stasis and mutualism. Which came first? Wasp or Tree? Wasp or fruit? Tree or wasp? Both?

reply to post by SuperiorEd
Your taking it for granted that one had to come before the other.

Why could you not have a tree that through evolution bears fruit. The wasp went through the process of evoution and found the tree. The tree gained advantage to reproduce because the wasp was attracted to the flower. The wasp gained advantage to breed because of the flower. The wasps action selected the for the best flower the same way a farmer selects the best seed.

Fig wasp

Did a quick google and found you were quite wrong. The flower is what attracts the wasp so the fruit plays little part and

The constant hybridization of the figs promotes the constant evolution of new pollinator wasp species.Host switching and pollinator host sharing may contribute to the incredible diversity of figs.

Which is not quiite remained the same for 34 million years?

The truth is out there, you just have to look.