The problem with America, is that it is full of Americans.

reply to post by Gorman91

But that's not 100% true. And I would even argue that Obama is a rebellion against that system.

No Obama is the strongest Bilderberg president ever to exist in the US. Convenient that considering the present economic climtate. |The US has not had a true president since the assassination of Kennedy .
Google the links between bilderberg and obama if you are intrested....

Originally posted by nyk537
reply to post by imalitehaus

 

I'm not talking about government agencies doing their jobs...that's the exact point I made for crying out loud? That's why I said that the problem is government bureaucracy.

I was talking about the expectations of a majority of Americans now who expect the federal government to take care of them. I'm talking about an entire generation of Americans being raised on a cradle to grave mentality.

Sorry, I'm still not buying it. I still think the majority of Americans want to work.

There aren't enough jobs to go around anymore, not really, (please don't say "pick fruit" or Mickey D's, etc. -- people are already trying to get even those jobs!). The long line of people waiting outside desperately hoping to get a job at McDonald's is heart-rending and encouraging, at the same time.

And, I did say I agreed with you about government agencies being a "bane", was how I put it.

But, I do still think most Americans want to work hard and enjoy the fruits of their labor. It's not only a matter of survival, but also self-respect.

reply to post by purplemer


And what is wrong with the Bilderbergs?

Most of their most famous members opposed Sopa, criticized the war in Iraq, and are pretty nice people.

I don't really see any Goldman Sachs participants. I don't see any Halliburton types. Don't see any GE or other major pollutants. Don't see many banks that have a bad history either.


Matter of fact, mind showing me just why the Bilderbergs are bad? As far as I can tell, they are rich people with honest reputations.

Oh sure there's a few baddies in there, just like anywhere else. But overall they seem like very good gents with very good intentions, albeit profit driven.

reply to post by Gorman91

Matter of fact, mind showing me just why the Bilderbergs are bad? As far as I can tell, they are rich people with honest reputations.

I just dont think some of most powerful and rich people in the world should be meeting in secret to determine the future history of the planet. That is not democracy.

reply to post by Count Chocula


Great post and link. I really enjoyed this video.

We are destined for major changes in the next few years. There is no simple solution.

"Modern technology has removed us from the natural arena, and placed us in an artificial environment of our own creation. This has added a new and unique twist to the way we interact, and is possibly one of the greatest changes we have ever faced. This new world created by technology seems to have endless possibilities. It is a place where forward planning and automation increases the gap between actions and consequences, where the gray areas between what is said and what is done have expanded to a point where the connection is often almost untraceable.

The twentieth century was an era of excess, not only of drugs, sex, and rock-n-roll, but also of monster trucks, giant mansions, and celebrity worship. Ours was a disposable society where consumption was necessary to keep the gears of our market economy turning. Industrial pollutants threatened our environment, while poverty and ghetto violence isolated and segregated us behind our televisions and jobs. Our only alternatives were totalitarian systems where opportunity was essentially removed. We found ourselves living in global conflict between these two extremes. The world's super powers engaged in a cold war rivalry based on competing economic philosophies, where the people of the third world were often used as pawns. Hovering above this conflict was the very real threat of nuclear war and the destruction of life as we know it. Among the first lessons we learned was how destructive technology can be. Once released from its bottle, the nuclear genie could not be put back. It was as if we could not go forward, nor could we retreat.

During these times, it seems that the principles which guided our society for generations, had been scattered and tangled by the machinations of our modern world. Electronics and combustion engines reshaped the world between generations. Maybe even more rapid technological expansion awaits us in the future, but in this era, people in developed countries escaped from the daily struggle for survival, into an age where we mainly ponder how much is enough."

reply to post by purplemer


Sorry to tell you.

Wealth is not democratic.

Wealth by its nature is oligarchical. I would even argue that you cannot have democracy with wealth. Which, incidentally, is why I don't like democracy, but rather republics.



In the early 1900s, the German Werkbund were their time period's equivalent to the Bilderbergs. They met in secret too. Want to know what they did?

Art. Architecture....oh yea, and sometimes machines.

And thanks to their actions, "German produced" became a title that meant good quality.




Sorry. But when the richest people on Earth meet, good things happen most of the time. Because evil rich people are too interested in personal wealth and do not cooperation.

reply to post by Gorman91


Then how is it that only democratic nations reach first world status?

S Korea is the newest member. How did they do it? By forming strong unions and kicking crooked politicians out of office, and putting strong regulations over business activities to protect the rights of the average individual against institutional abuses.

By the way, Germany's success mainly comes from its excellent work force, and strong unionization.

People who aspire to the wealthy class tend to be shallow people with little imagination. They are not the ones who produce the technology, and anyone who has a knowledge of the advancement of technology knows this. The wealthy for the most part are just clever politicians with major inferiority complexes. Why else would they pursue wealth?

reply to post by watchitburn


The problems is more that we are looking at the death throes of the old industrial world, and a great many people hate change. Immigrants take to our disposable lifestyles like ducks to water, and don't flinch about helping the big corporations export our jobs to slave labor markets abroad.

Big business has built this huge sprawling suburban infrastructure based on using automobiles for transportation, because that is what is most profitable to them, and this infrastructure is not sustainable, physically or economically. Our love of the automobile is doing us in, and immigrants love the automobile as much as we do.

The anger at the liberal side is due to the fact that liberal elites who control the democrat party seemed dead intent to oppress the white working class in favor of deemed minorities. Minorities and college grad whites discriminate at will against working class whites. Minority groups can discriminate all they want, and they do on a continual basis, while working class white males are held to a higher standard, and this is blatantly wrong.

It seems that too many college grad liberals are too obsessed with perceived injustices back in high school.

Thus, a lot of people are very angry about the exodus of their jobs, simultaneous with a large influx of immigrants, and complete lack of available representation in government. They have been suckered by the lies of the Republicans and the con of the free market, in great part, because they are pissed off at the hypocrisy of the Democrats in their support of a system that blatantly discriminates against working class white males.

There you have the picture, and by the way, the same problems are now growing in Europe.

reply to post by poet1b


Even if your generalization(Which is as shallow minded, and I see a striking similarity in your own words to your description of the wealthy) were anywhere close to being correct, it is still the wealthy, and the business owners who facilitate discovery by funding research and developement.

China has the type of system you seem to wish for, and they can't come up with anything original, and even though they steal all the technology they can, they STILL are not able to build a military jet engine with the life-span before overhaul such as russian, english, or american engines. Russia itself mainly imitated US progress, and it was not until the post soviet era that some of the most radical ideas recieved the funding needed to get off the ground.

reply to post by poet1b

Then how is it that only democratic nations reach first world status?

China, Nazi Germany, Japan, Just to name a few. Not to mention Rome and Carthage, in their days. Under the first 300 years of an emperor, Rome saw the development of the steam engine, primitive railways, the paddle boat, the semiautomatic crossbow, and many other things. But that was only because the emperor has a vested interest in carrying out the demands of the mob. Eventually they got cocky with their power, and Christianity changed the culture. As a result, the empire became nonfunctional, and so died. The advent of individualism from both greek stoic and Christian arabic traditions saw the mob become something else entirely, and the rise of the concept of individualism lead to the downfall of Rome. Eventually the Church tried to suppress this, but Luther translated scripture into the local language so that all could learn it, and that was the death of the church and the advent of true individualism and personal rights.



Democracy simply produces faster results. But with that, also times of very slow growth, as well as collapse.

S Korea is the newest member. How did they do it? By forming strong unions and kicking crooked politicians out of office, and putting strong regulations over business activities to protect the rights of the average individual against institutional abuses.

To each their own. There is no real guidebook to humanity. Each culture has their preferred government, and each government their preferred speed and viability.

By the way, Germany's success mainly comes from its excellent work force, and strong unionization.

Yes but union doesn't necessarily mean nor function the same way over there as it does in America. Germany has a cultural heritage of "tribes" working together to produce good quality. The German Werkbund, the Bauhaus, etc etc. Unionization with an ethos of high quality and good work. In America, the idea of the union was that at some point, but has since downgraded into mob rule and collectivization of the mind. Not what Germany was doing.

People who aspire to the wealthy class tend to be shallow people with little imagination. They are not the ones who produce the technology, and anyone who has a knowledge of the advancement of technology knows this. The wealthy for the most part are just clever politicians with major inferiority complexes. Why else would they pursue wealth?

For their own reasons, and this is only true for their generation. Go back in time to the late 1800s an early 1900s, and the wealthy perused wealth for social reasons, as well as self glorification. JP Morgan is known for his famous "where can I put the meter" quote, but that doesn't change the fact that he financed Tesla to begin with, a man who was known for his socialistic ideals. This doesn't make either man good or evil. JP Morgan financed socially active entities, seeking his own profit. But he still financed and had a personal interests in those socially progressive entities. He was not closed minded nor lacked creativity. He saw creative people and wanted to finance them, seeking something in return.

Wasn't until after ww2 where the idea of purely profit driven business emerged.

reply to post by steppenwolf86


The U.S. government funds more research than the wealthy. Open our eyes and look into the development of the internet as a recent example.

en.wikipedia.org...

Most corporations are not willing to invest in long term research and development projects. Most of these corporations buy up their technology by purchasing smaller corporations that have succeeded. Usually by rewarding the execs and screwing the people who actually developed the tech. Lots of broken promises.

China has the type system that people who believe in a free market will get, if they get their way.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Maybe you don't like what I have to say about the wealthy, but the fact is that pursuit of material wealth is not a sign of good character. Those few who succeed by doing great things, I respect, but now days most of the wealthy are nothing more that slick corporate politicians.

reply to post by Gorman91

Sorry to tell you.
Wealth is not democratic.

I know its not and people want change. If you keep doing things the same as you have always done then things will always turn out the same. Really we need to learn to do things different unless we want to repeat.
The good thing is that now people are becoming empowered through technology and are in a position to make change. Change is coming and its long overdue..

Unless you want to vote for one of these fellas again.

reply to post by Gorman91

China, Nazi Germany, Japan

Despite dubious claims about tech prowess of the past, and the current state of China's economy, China's conservative structured status quo system has continuously held them back as a civilization, and will continue to do so until they develop a culture of independence and democracy.

NAZI Germany developed nothing but an unsustainable war machine. Germany was doing fine with the Wiemar Republic when Hitler grabbed power.

Most of Japan's success came from improving upon Western developed tech. That includes adopting Western Democracy.

When Rome became an empire, it began its decline. Romes glory days were when Rome was a Republic.

Democratic style governments create long term stable development, as well as far greater productivity and innovation. People who have freedom and opportunity, and realize gain from their labor are willing to work far harder than slaves will ever work. History has demonstrated this over and over again.

The path to success has consistent patterns. S Korea followed the established road to success, and that is why they are so successful at this time.

I do agree that unions in the U.S. took a wrong turn, and a good part of that was the whole special interest agenda pushed. Meritocracy was abandoned, and that has been a failure of the liberal elites policies.

Your history of JP Morgan is sadly lacking, and Tesla as well. Tesla's prime contribution was financed by Westinghouse, not Morgan. JP was busy screwing Edison out of his light bulb patent. A chapter of history that clearly demonstrate how corrupt JP and his kind were.

I suspect that you have no idea how many propaganda lies you were taught.

reply to post by purplemer

I know its not and people want change. If you keep doing things the same as you have always done then things will always turn out the same. Really we need to learn to do things different unless we want to repeat.

I would argue that it needs a transitional period or it will cause violent revolution. If you change the corporate sponsors, you change the thing that is needing change. There are good corporations and bad corporations. And after transitional support to the good ones, w can ebb off needing them.

The first step is of course saying corporations are not people. That is the point that, if we do not change, will be recorded in history as the point of no return.

....in my opinion, a return to a form of feudalism....corporate feudalism.

Read up on history I guess? Read up on the Italian wars. Read Machiavelli's the Prince. Modern America is a corporate version of all this. And unless we choose wisely, we will have some serious problems.

Italy did not become a modern democracy over night. And neither will America. You must first choose the right types of corporate types that will support America (as it needs the monetary life support), than slowly bring it back into reality.

Even that image you showed only shows the bad ones. There ARE good ones. And because America has become such that it relies on corporations and debt to live, you are forced to use those systems to bring her back to where she should be. It cannot so quickly return to where it was over night.

reply to post by poet1b

Despite dubious claims about tech prowess of the past, and the current state of China's economy, China's conservative structured status quo system has continuously held them back as a civilization, and will continue to do so until they develop a culture of independence and democracy.

I'm not 100% sure about that to be honest. Their culture and people makes them unfamiliar to freedom and democracy.Switching over night will cause a repeat of what happened in Iraq when we tried the same, only on the scale of a billion people rather than a few hundred thousand people interested in new government.

But lo, this makes me sound like that very conservative wing you are talking about.

I just haven't seen a reason to think that, quickly changing, it will ..."not" hold them back.

Even the relatively capitalist parts of China only function because they have been that way for one hundred or so years under British or other control. You cannot bring those people into traditional chinese society inasmuch as you cannot bring traditional Chinese society into modernity.

Modernity does not happen over night. But it is a goal that can slowly be reached without violent revolution or problem.

NAZI Germany developed nothing but an unsustainable war machine. Germany was doing fine with the Wiemar Republic when Hitler grabbed power.

Not particularly. It was broke and going downhill. Most of the artists and creative wings were having difficulty getting anywhere. To quote a professor from my not so distant past "when you're broke and have no hope, you party like a rock star". And that's exactly what the artists and architects did.

It was the Nazis, despite their horrible genocide, whom took what had potential and made it into the most successful war machines. And yes it was not sustainable, but neither was the US. However, we managed out of the post war depression pretty well.

It is rather ironic, considering the nazis closed down all the unions which they got their quality good procedures from. But even so, those were born in an awkward time between empire and republic.

Most of Japan's success came from improving upon Western developed tech. That includes adopting Western Democracy.

Yes, but not before they became a totalitarian nationalistic state It took 2 nuclear bombs and 30 years of economic reorganization to do it.... to make them convinced that what they were was wrong and there was another way. As the saying goes, they lost the war, but won the peace.

When Rome became an empire, it began its decline. Romes glory days were when Rome was a Republic.

That's not retentively true. It was indeed full of glory under a republic. However, all that they are known for: The Pantheon, The Colosseum, the huge forums, the aqueducts, the technology an bureaucratic efficiency. These all occurred under the Empire.

There were attempts to bring her back to a republic, both by people and by emperors. But their culture denied it. Not until Christianity and the advent of individualism did they change, and that first resulted in their decline and collapse because their culture contradicted their new values.

Democratic style governments create long term stable development, as well as far greater productivity and innovation. People who have freedom and opportunity, and realize gain from their labor are willing to work far harder than slaves will ever work. History has demonstrated this over and over again.

Not 100% true. History has shown that dictators make longer lasting and grandeur things, while free people make more advanced, but temporary things. Everything we know of from the ancient world occurred under the guise of dictators and kings. Everything we know of the modern world came during freedom and progress. I therefore must say the cause of this is in the culture. Not in the government.

Rome, as an empire, withing the same time period as we did, generated the steam engine, and many other primitive, but all too modern, inventions in the same time length and same initiatives.

Your history of JP Morgan is sadly lacking, and Tesla as well. Tesla's prime contribution was financed by Westinghouse, not Morgan. JP was busy screwing Edison out of his light bulb patent. A chapter of history that clearly demonstrate how corrupt JP and his kind were. I suspect that you have no idea how many propaganda lies you were taught.

I don't think its lies. I did not say JP Morgan was the primary finance. I simply said he financed him. And yes, as an investor, he should have patent rights...under this current patent system.

But that very same patent system is flawed to begin with. And the way it is designed, the financer has just as much right as the inventor.

reply to post by Gorman91



Hey Gorman

we kind of agree then I to think we needs a transitional period. The system even though flawed does work. It provides for billions of people around the world and o remove it would cause a lot of bloodshed. Change needs to be done with caution.

reply to post by poet1b

reply to post by purplemer

reply to post by Gorman91


Gentlemen,
This last page has been the most interesting of the entire thread. I encourage you to start a new thread for this topic so everyone else on ATS can get in on this discussion.

This thread seams to have run its course.

reply to post by watchitburn


The only thing I needed to read was the OP because that is what I was replying to.

reply to post by watchitburn

Originally posted by watchitburn
Gentlemen,
This last page has been the most interesting of the entire thread. I encourage you to start a new thread for this topic so everyone else on ATS can get in on this discussion.

I second this proposal. I'd like to read more like this.
This thread was an interesting read altogether watchitburn.

Originally posted by Chargeit
reply to post by Kryties

 

Well I personally take that as a major slap in the face. If your not a tax payer I don't care what you think about us. Worry about your own country pls.

worrying about our own country is the LAST thing Americans do. look around, all people care about what their favorite celebrity is doing or what they will buy at wal-mart next. most Americans know nothing about their own governments policies or new laws being passed, and this is because they don't care. so i am American and I believe the problem with America is that it's citizens for the most part don't give a s*** sadly...