What god is God? Is God a god that no human yet knows?

Originally posted by mbartelsm
Over the short span of my life I've known and heard of a lot of people, from different beliefs, assure me that their god is THE God, they all say it with the same confidence and faith, but as it may have happened to quite a few (or lot) of you, this only led you to believe that no one actually knows who the right god is.

First let me say that the God I believe in transcends religion, all religions are just man's attempt to understand what is not understandable. I've always believed in God, but for much of my life struggled to define him. When I ran across the ontological argument, a light bulb went off. If you're not familiar with the argument, please Google it as there are a lot of resources on it or look here for a synopsis, but in a nutshell it is a philosophical debate point that even outside of all writings and evidence, if you can imagine a "being than which no greater can be conceived" then it therefore must exist simply because we have the capacity to imagine it. That for me is God, he is pure, perfect, infinite, etc. He is someone you can ascribe every perfect characteristic to. Now when you use that view of a perfect God as your starting point, it actually becomes relatively easy to sort through what's valid and invalid in religion. For me, the writings about Christ are consistent with the will of a pure and perfect God and I do believe in Christ as the son of God. However, when you delve into some of the old testament and read things like punching your slave's ear with an awl to denote ownership, well for me that is not consistent with a pure and perfect God, and since God MUST be pure and perfect (or otherwise by definition he would not be God) then the writings are at fault. And is this really surprising? Men wrote the Bible and of course their personal beliefs and biases would creep into the telling. I've never understood why people insist the Bible must be either 100% accurate or 0% accurate, like there's no room for middle ground. Makes no sense. Nothing has ever been written that was flawless. But that doesn't take away from the overall message of the Bible which is overwhelmingly positive for those who choose to invest the time to read it.

Originally posted by mbartelsmif a person has been righteous both in hearth and in actions, yet he or she does not believe in the Christian god, or Jesus, either because he or she feel the same way that I do or because they never had the chance to even learn about that religion, then they are going to hell (according to EVERY SINGLE Christian I have ever asked about this).

Well you need to talk to more Christians then I have studied the Bible for many years and I feel that salvation is largely misunderstood. Most religions teach that it is the result of good works which is counter to the Bible and also counter to the concept of a pure and loving God. Salvation is a gift, you don't earn it. And most religions teach that we are damned for non-belief, but if your child was taken away from you at a young age and you were able to watch them grow up, but they could not see you or know anything about you, would you later condemn them to a firey death simply because they didn't know you? No, of course not. So are we more righteous than God? Most assuredly not. So would God condemn someone who legitimately does not believe in Him to death, just because they say they don't know him? I don't believe so, if we wouldn't do such a thing then surely he wouldn't, because he is far better than us (again, he has to be or by definition he wouldn't be God). I believe that God reveals himself to each of us and faced with that truth, we choose our fate. For some this truth is revealed early in life, for others it comes late in life, and yes, I believe there is the possibility that for some it comes at death or maybe even after. And here's the kicker, the Bible is silent on this matter. It simply doesn't say the choice must be made while we're alive, so we really don't know how it works.

reply to post by SavedOne


Thank you, that has to be the most comprehensive and coherent response since I started this thread. I do believe god has to be completely pure and perfect, however, how can we ever know what's perfect and pure if we are not and have known it?

reply to post by Akragon


I thought you where an atheist...

reply to post by mbartelsm


Not even close my friend...

Not only do i "believe" in God... I KNOW he exists...

Some are meant to just "believe" but some of us know...

reply to post by charles1952

That is one of the stranger things I have heard. It certainly isn't Catholic teaching.

The one thing I learnt about all religions is there no one teaching. There are several in each religion and depending on the individual one or the other is what is taught to satisafy their curiosity.

I wouldn't categorise this Catholic I mentioned as a very imaginative person. So whatever he said must have been what he received from someone else. Since he called himself a Catholic, I assume he received it from some source he considered reliable, some Catholic priest or book.

It also takes Justice from God. If your belief and behavior makes no difference to the afterlife, then why not steal all you can now, and do what you want regardless of its impact on others?

It also contradicts New Testament teachings, and Jesus' words. No, I can't understand your friend's position at all and wonder where he got it from.

The last thing anyone can accuse the God of Abraham of being is Just. If eternal reward/punishment for actions for a limited period of time isn't enough evidence of the lack of it on the part of this entity, the fact that He throws in belief or lack there of into it clinches the deal. It is not as if He reveals Himself to each and every individual, gives them the dos and don'ts and then judges them accordingly. Even the worst tyrants on earth are much easier to understand and avoid the wrath of than this "omnipotent, omniscient creator of the world".

So considering how ridiculous such an entity sounds to someone with an iota of concept of justice, some must have sought to modify some concepts in order to make this guy look less ridiculous. One such thing would be to remove the concept of justice from God and afterlife as reward/punishment for beliefs/actions on earth. He would still be the same jerk, but less inconsistent.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by domasio

 

I'm not a Christian my friend....

And God didn't write the bible... so you can't hold him responsible for what you read in every circumstance

edit on 16-1-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

If you're not a Christian then why did you preach the belief that "Jesus is Love" ?

As for God not writing the Bible, I am well aware of this. I'm not gullible enough to believe an omnipotent being could pick up a pen and write books.

I have never held God responsible for what I read in the Bible. That would require me believing that he wrote the Bible, which I have also proved I don't, and never have. In fact, our devout RMPS teacher, one of the most faithful Christians I know, actively disencourages people's belief in the book, as it is written by men, as well as has been changed by many religious councils. I don't blame Godfor any circumstance, I blame Christians for being so illogically gullible and easily-led as to believe words on a piece of paper, other than what they feel inside.

reply to post by domasio

Why can't I post something about Christianity without a Christian coming along and simply stating "read the Bible" ?

That little statement is what originally got me to actually read the Bible, I had questions, the minister was either ignorant, or just lazy, he told me to read the bible, that all of the answers were in there. Yeah, right! When I came back, I have a lot more questions, and I was not too politely asked to leave and not come back. I was severally admonished for questioning "the word of God," but wondered why this is? A fundamentalist in this forum told me that I could not read and understand the Bible unless I prayed to Jesus, a man who lived a long time ago and died, and asked for the "Holy Spirit," which would then tell me what the Bible really said. Yeah, that make perfect sense.

Originally posted by 7thsignofthezodiac
I believe in the force....... so may the force be with us all!

I do too. That is the only way to truly describe the Grand Architect of the Universe, as a vast, intelligent Force of pure energy. To personalize this Force is only human, humans do this when everything, it seems.

reply to post by domasio

If you're not a Christian then why did you preach the belief that "Jesus is Love" ?

I said Jesus "represents" love...because its true

And i wasn't preaching...

I do not preach... i only clairify and post questions to do so...

I have never held God responsible for what I read in the Bible. That would require me believing that he wrote the Bible, which I have also proved I don't, and never have. In fact, our devout RMPS teacher, one of the most faithful Christians I know, actively disencourages people's belief in the book, as it is written by men, as well as has been changed by many religious councils. I don't blame Godfor any circumstance, I blame Christians for being so illogically gullible and easily-led as to believe words on a piece of paper, other than what they feel inside.

I wouldn't blame Christians for their beliefs either... those beliefs are usually passed down through family ties... IF you were born into a religion in most cases you believe what your church or family tells you to believe...

Their faults lie in failing to read the book for themselves....

If anything blame the preachers that teach yet do not know, or understand for that matter....

reply to post by autowrench

That is the only way to truly describe the Grand Architect of the Universe, as a vast, intelligent Force of pure energy. To personalize this Force is only human, humans do this when everything, it seems.

What you are describing is Anankē, which is not a God, but the primeval force.
God is a person.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by autowrench

 

That is the only way to truly describe the Grand Architect of the Universe, as a vast, intelligent Force of pure energy. To personalize this Force is only human, humans do this when everything, it seems.

What you are describing is Anankē, which is not a God, but the primeval force.
God is a person.

God is a person?

I disagree..

reply to post by Akragon


Hey Akragon…

Originally posted by Akragon
Not even close my friend...

Not only do i "believe" in God... I KNOW he exists...

Wow! I can’t believe that no one has addressed your above post, in the last 24 hours. It seems to have kinda slipped under the radar. If I posted that I KNEW God existed, then I’m pretty sure that ATS would be all over my posts, like a hot rash on a sunny day.

I’m surprised you haven’t been swamped with atheists in their droves, with cries of “where is your evidence!” and “show us the proof!” lol etc etc…I’m sure your probably well aware of the autopilot speech lol, that gets activated in these types of discussions.

Maybe you should start a thread explaining that you know God exists, and then go into some detail as to why and how you know. No pressure here of course; you may have had a personal experience that you don’t wish to discuss, and if so, I totally respect that.

I for one though, would be interested in hearing what you have to say on the subject. For more reasons than one!


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by Akragon

 

Hey Akragon…

Originally posted by Akragon
Not even close my friend...

Not only do i "believe" in God... I KNOW he exists...

Wow! I can’t believe that no one has addressed your above post, in the last 24 hours. It seems to have kinda slipped under the radar. If I posted that I KNEW God existed, then I’m pretty sure that ATS would be all over my posts, like a hot rash on a sunny day.

I’m surprised you haven’t been swamped with atheists in their droves, with cries of “where is your evidence!” and “show us the proof!” lol etc etc…I’m sure your probably well aware of the autopilot speech lol, that gets activated in these types of discussions.

Maybe you should start a thread explaining that you know God exists, and then go into some detail as to why and how you know. No pressure here of course; you may have had a personal experience that you don’t wish to discuss, and if so, I totally respect that.

I for one though, would be interested in hearing what you have to say on the subject. For more reasons than one!


- JC

I get my share of attacks my friend... i don't mind at all...

What makes me different is that i question people, but i don't condem... nor do i judge... I tell people to judge me as they see fit... and believe whatever they like... I don't force my beliefs on anyone...

Though i do attempt to point in the right direction...

Im not here to change peoples minds or convert... i have no agenda... and the only think i actually "preach" is love for all creation... but i don't honestly care if people believe in God or not... the fact is every single person will find out the truth when their physical body expires...

Unfortunatly i will never make a thread about my beliefs... i have no wish to set a stage for myself...

I have had my experiences, and they shall always remain between me and my creator... They were and continue to be deeply profound and flaunting them would only cheapen the experiences...

reply to post by Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
I get my share of attacks my friend... i don't mind at all...

Yes, I’ve noticed this, and you handle it, really well IMO.

Originally posted by Akragon
What makes me different is that i question people, but i don't condem... nor do i judge... I tell people to judge me as they see fit... and believe whatever they like... I don't force my beliefs on anyone...

Though i do attempt to point in the right direction...

Well, it’s good to plant seeds in people and to try and get them to think about things for themselves, and I agree, force should never be used at all.

And as for pointing people in the right direction, you do this extremely well. I know this from just reading a few of your posts. You have a natural gift and are very good with people in general.

Originally posted by Akragon
Unfortunatly i will never make a thread about my beliefs... i have no wish to set a stage for myself...

But you talk about your beliefs all the time lol why would setting up a thread on the subject, be such a turn around, from what you have already been doing so far?

Originally posted by Akragon
I have had my experiences, and they shall always remain between me and my creator... They were and continue to be deeply profound and flaunting them would only cheapen the experiences...

hmm IMO I think you have the wrong mind set regarding the above. I don’t think there’s ever anything wrong in talking about your experiences about God, in any way. In fact, it might even inspire other people, you never know until you try. I know there will always be the scoffers, but that’s part and parcel of people sharing their experiences.


But that being said…I will respect your views Akragon…


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Thank you my friend... im glad some people understand me...

Speaking of pointing... let me share a story with everyone... Just for fun..

I had a dream I died and I was walking along the road to Heaven or Hell. I as walked along an effulgent path covered in a bright white mist, an angel appeared in the bend of the road and floated along beside me. My eyes were dazzled by the brilliance while my ears clearly heard, "Along the way you will meet GOD and the Devil. The Devil will always lie to you and GOD will always tell you the truth. But you only get to ask GOD one question and the DEVIL one question.

As the Angel started to fade and before I could ask anything, "Don't worry, you should have no trouble figuring out what the question should be."

I was walking along the when my worst enemy appeared along the road and started walking along side looking disgusted and said, "I am GOD and I will show you the way to Heaven."

As I walked along in disbelief and before I had really recovered my best friend appeared from the white mists and joined us and laughed while gently touching my arm, "I am GOD and I will show you the way to Heaven."

At that moment we were at a fork in the road. The worst enemy I had ever met in my lifetime was standing to my right and the best friend I had ever had was standing to my left. I turned to my best friend and realized the devil could form a pleasing shape so I hesitated. So I turned to my worst enemy and realized that if I couldn't recognize GOD in my worst enemy I couldn't recognize GOD. Yet still I hesitated.

They both were content to wait and I was baffled. Then I remembered something I had learned from my Master. He would always say, "Duality is an illusion." The memory of that phrase made me realize simultaneously that it didn't matter which one was the Devil and which one was GOD; As long as I asked a question they both would answer the same, the Wisdom of Balance would come to my rescue!

I bowed before them both and said, "If I asked the Devil which was the way to Heaven, where would he point?" As I looked up they were both pointing to my left, so I went to my right and entered the Kingdom of HEAVEN.

reluctant-messenger.com...

reply to post by Akragon

I wouldn't blame Christians for their beliefs either... those beliefs are usually passed down through family ties... IF you were born into a religion in most cases you believe what your church or family tells you to believe...

Their faults lie in failing to read the book for themselves....

How do you feel spreading lies to make Christians seem like gullible fools ?

That is NOT the case! I did not grow up in a Christian family and I have become a Christian at age 21!

Now why would any normal 21 year old become a Christian unless they had found Truth.

This is a big misconception that people only become Christians due to family upbringing...

I hope you can see the ignorance in putting all Christians in a box like that.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by Akragon

 

I wouldn't blame Christians for their beliefs either... those beliefs are usually passed down through family ties... IF you were born into a religion in most cases you believe what your church or family tells you to believe...

Their faults lie in failing to read the book for themselves....

How do you feel spreading lies to make Christians seem like gullible fools ?

That is NOT the case! I did not grow up in a Christian family and I have become a Christian at age 21!

Now why would any normal 21 year old become a Christian unless they had found Truth.

This is a big misconception that people only become Christians due to family upbringing...

I hope you can see the ignorance in putting all Christians in a box like that.

edit on 17-1-2012 by RevelationGeneration because: (no reason given)

Are you saying this is never the case?

Did you notice i said "usually"?

I was born into a christian household just so you know...

And im not putting "all Christians in a box"... Theres fifty million different flavors of Christianity. How would that be possible?

reply to post by Akragon


To put things in perspective I live in the UK and I would say atleast 80% of people are not Christians. I am the only one of my friends that is Christian.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by Akragon

 

To put things in perspective I live in the UK and I would say atleast 80% of people are not Christians. I am the only one of my friends that is Christian.

Good for you...

How is that workin for ya?

Or them for that matter?

reply to post by Akragon



Interesting story… thanks for link to that site…but check this out

From the movie Labyrinth…

Did Sarah choose the right door?
Many mistakenly believe Sarah went through the wrong door during this scene. And many mistakenly think the riddle requires knowing which door tells the truth and which door is lying. This is not required. Here's the logic for you. The trick is not to find out which one is lying and which one is telling the truth but to find out how to get them both to give the same sort of answer. If you ask one guard Would he tell me this door leads to the castle? Whatever answer they give you is the opposite of the truth. You're either asking a truthful person what a liar would say (So you get a lie answer, you're truthfully told what the liar would say.). Or you ask a liar what the truthful person would say (so get the lie answer because that's who you're talking to, lie by default).

Source


- JC

reply to post by RevelationGeneration


I'd like to know what made you become christian, if you wouldn't mind me asking. I mean you're very blatent about your beliefs, so I'd like to know what happened to you, at 21, to make you believe in that religion.