F-22's less stealthy then the F-117?!? (link)

hummm i found this site: www.aerospaceweb.org...
and it explaines how radar works (and all the math behind it) and it also states the radar cross section of multiple aircraft to compare them. it has a very interesting list from the radar sig of a f-15 to the new Bird of Pray and says the F-22 is less stealthy then the f-117 and b-2, both of the airplanes using much older technology... hummm this aint good... then again they are estimating some of the numbers of the planes... but by real scientists...

well simply put i hope they are wrong... cuz if the f-22 is less stealty then the f-117 it might be detected by enemy radar in the next few years...

[edit on 12-9-2004 by beyondSciFi]

[edit on 12-9-2004 by beyondSciFi]

Originally posted by beyondSciFi
hummm i found this site: www.aerospaceweb.org...
and it explaines how radar works (and all the math behind it) and it also states the radar cross section of multiple aircraft to compare them. it has a very interesting list from the radar sig of a f-15 to the new Bird of Pray and says the F-22 is less stealthy then the f-117 and b-2, both of the airplanes using much older technology... hummm this aint good... then again they are estimating some of the numbers of the planes... but by real scientists...

well simply put i hope they are wrong... cuz if the f-22 is less stealty then the f-117 it might be detected by enemy radar in the next few years...

Hmmmmmph, according to what I have seen the F-22 is supposed to be more stealthy than the F-117A Nighthawk. And it appears they got something else wrong too, it states that the Typhoon is supposed to have a smaller RCS than both the Rafale and the Super Hornet. While according to Janes and AvWeekly, they say the Super Hornet is supposed to have the smallest RCS of all non-stealthy aircraft (F-22, F-35, F-117, B-2), followed by the Rafale, then the Typhoon.

[edit on 12-9-2004 by Hockeyguy567]

hummm i hope your are right... but do u have a link or something i can find on the net and read myself?

I think those numbers might be alittle fudged. It is known now that the B-2 though it it much larger then the F-117 has a smaller radar cross section.It was once said that the B-2 radar cross section was that of a bird but it turns out it was closer to that of a insect.

A good educated guess though

Actually that is correct. Not only is the Raptor bigger than the F-117, it is compromised out of necessity in order to carry out its function as a supersonic fighter, a burder the F-117 doesn't have to worry about. The RCS of the Raptor would have been very much larger than it is if it wasn't for the advances in stealth technology that have been made since the F-117 was created. All fighter design is the art of compromise, if you built the perfect stealth platform that was virtually undetectable in any way it would have to fly in a straight line and be useless to any air force. The Raptor is the epitome of this art as it acheives the best all round performance in every area possible today.

Also it is true about the Typhoon Rafale and Super Hornet too, I tried to put that point across before but failed, there is simply no way that the SH has a smaller RCS than the Typhoon. But I know you wont believe that, which is your prerogative.

The RCS for the stealth aircraft are all educated guesses. I doubt that the military would release actual numbers and if they did I can imagine that they would be degraded anyway. The Raptor, Is supposed to be stealthier than the F-117. But even if the numbers in the web site are accurate I don't know if it will make a huge diffreence in a BVR engagement anyway. The stealth is easier and cheaper to maintain on the Raptor as well. That being said the AF has made decisions trading off stealth with other aspects as well. The YF-23 and the Locheed ATB proposals were more stealth than the planes that won (F-22 and B-2)

Tom Burbage, one of Lockheeds managers said the Ratpr RCS was in the F-117 class, just that the impact the stealth technology has on flying qualities and maintainability is far less than the F-117, that's why its a couple of generations in cabability more advanced. Not necessarily less detectable, but in the same class,"birds and bees", with the ability to retain its low observable properties for long periods before needing refurbishment.

Originally posted by waynos
Actually that is correct. Not only is the Raptor bigger than the F-117, it is compromised out of necessity in order to carry out its function as a supersonic fighter, a burder the F-117 doesn't have to worry about. The RCS of the Raptor would have been very much larger than it is if it wasn't for the advances in stealth technology that have been made since the F-117 was created. All fighter design is the art of compromise, if you built the perfect stealth platform that was virtually undetectable in any way it would have to fly in a straight line and be useless to any air force. The Raptor is the epitome of this art as it acheives the best all round performance in every area possible today.

Also it is true about the Typhoon Rafale and Super Hornet too, I tried to put that point across before but failed, there is simply no way that the SH has a smaller RCS than the Typhoon. But I know you wont believe that, which is your prerogative.

Well according to pretty much every reliable source, the Super Hornet has the smaller RCS than both the Typhoon and Rafale, and yes, the F-22 does have a smaller RCS than the nighthawk.

[edit on 13-9-2004 by Hockeyguy567]

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567

Well according to pretty much every reliable source, the Super Hornet has the smaller RCS than both the Typhoon and Rafale, and yes, the F-22 does have a smaller RCS than the nighthawk.
[edit on 13-9-2004 by Hockeyguy567]

The JSF is supposed to to have F-117 level stealth

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567

Well according to pretty much every reliable source, the Super Hornet has the smaller RCS than both the Typhoon and Rafale, and yes, the F-22 does have a smaller RCS than the nighthawk.
[edit on 13-9-2004 by Hockeyguy567]

The JSF is supposed to to have F-117 level stealth

Ok.....I never mentioned the JSF in my post though.

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
Ok.....I never mentioned the JSF in my post though.

Yea, but I thought I would throw that out for public consumption.

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
Ok.....I never mentioned the JSF in my post though.

Yea, but I thought I would throw that out for public consumption.

Oh ok.

Well, Hockeyguy, if they are the sources that you have mentioned before then I must agree that they are usually very reliable. My sources too are usually reliable but clearly one side is right and one wrong, now how to determine which is the problem.

I am inclined to believe my sources on this because it makes sense and also ties in with every resource on stealth in general and fighter design that I have read. The Super Hornet is an upgrade of an airframe designed in the 70's with no previous regard to stealth, while the Typhoon was designed to incorporate a low RCS from the start, logically therefore I believe what I have read that ties in with that. It is true that it doesn't guarantee it is correct but in this case I have made a judgement call.

It is also true about the fighter designers art lying in the mastery of the art of compromise, Although of an earlier technology level the F-117 is compromised less by its mission than any other 'fighter' ever built, by a very long way.

I once read that one of the aims of ATF was to achieve F-117 like levels of stealth but without compromising mission capability in order to achieve it. This was where the F/A-22 benefitted from the massive strides in stealth technology and it is said to be extremely close to the F-117 in terms of low observability, again for my sins, this makes sense to me and Flight International is maybe THE most respected aviation magazine out there, straight away I will qualify that statement by adding that no, that does not mean they are 100% right 100% of the time.

I have also read that the F-35 is far less 'stealth' oriented than the F/A-22 due in the main to Americas wish for it to be the main export fighter after the F-16 is out of production, this again makes sense to me. Why sell something more (or at least as) stealthy than the F-117 on the world market? I think therefore it would be doubtful that it is as stealthy as some like to think.

The gut reaction from people seems to be along the lines of "Uh oh, thats not good". But why? To make Raptor, whose main function is as an air dominance fighter, as stealthy as an aircraft whose main function is merely to BE stealthy is a fantastic achievement!

As far as I understand it the Raptor is more stealthy then the Nighthawk, but slightly less then that of the B-2.

And yes, the JSF (less stealthy then the raptor) is about the equivalent of the F-117, so I think it is safe to say that this website is wrong, and the F-22 is more stealthy then the nighthawk.

wha?
that would be stupid!
i mean if the F22 had a bigger radar sig than the F117 then they wouldnt use it.or say its so stealthy

[edit on 13-9-2004 by waynos]

Why would it? Think carefully and put yourseld in the Position of the fictional aircraft designer Fred Lockheed.

Air Force asks you to design an aircraft that, above all else must be stealthy. Don't worry about speed, payload, range, agility or any of that stuff thought the ability tro carry a couple of bombs internally would be an advantage. You build the F-117 and everyone thinks you're a genius.

Air Force comes back and says "excellent, now do us another but this time make it do ALL the other stuff we told you not to worry about before as well, and then some because its got to be the best fighter in the world for the next 25 years. Then you build the Raptor.

It does not automatically follow at all that the Raptor will be miles more stealthy than the F-117, Like I said before, merely to make a fighter such as the Raptor stealthy to as near as dammit the same degree as the F-117, which was only designed to BE stealthy and anything else was a bonus, is an INCREDIBLE technological acheivement. Why can't you see the difference between designing the F-117 and designing a fighter of the magnitude of the Raptor?

I'll leave it at that as I am being tempted into a rant and I don't like those even if it looks like I do

[edit on 13-9-2004 by waynos]

Computer trouble, sorry chaps




[edit on 13-9-2004 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos
Why would it?
well the USAF has spent/is spending more money on the F22 than it did on the F117 so it MUST be atleast a wee bit stealthy and also i think it would be stealthier since it is newer and has used all the reaserch off the F117 and B2 projects.