Anunnaki or Atlantis?

The sea people reference was off the top of my head, but a quick link should suffice... There is still much speculation as to who they were, but are distinct from the Phoenicians (esp if you check the parent site)...

touregypt.net...

As for the originals to check, here they are for your convenience...

Timaeus

www.geocities.com...

Critias

www.geocities.com...

Originally posted by Byrd
Plato is the ONLY ancient source mentioning Atlantis, and he does it as a teaching story.

There is an older source however. A fragment of a work, titled "Atlantis". The author is supposed to be Hellanicus. Look here if you want to see a post of mine that has some more details I have found on this. Of course, Hellanicus was a greek around not too much earlier than plato, and there are no egyptian or sumerian records indicating the existence of atlantis either.

Atlantis is a story made up by Socrates to prove a point (written down by his student, Plato.)

Why do you say that? I've heard that much of what plato writes is what socrates taught, what identifies timeaus and criteus as such?

mdcclxxvi
By that you're admitting that Sitchin COULD be right, since no one knows exactly how to translate it

The only way to really go over this is too look at the actual method sitchin uses to translate cuneiform and the methods the other translators used. Does sitchin detail his method anywhere?

one mans "crackpot" theory should hold as much water as mainstream translations

No, they shouldn't, because the mainstream translations fit into the rest of what is known. Ideas like sitchins require a re-writing of everything, based on nothing.

Are there people out there that can help support Sitchins claims

Apparently not. Apparently its quite offensive to ask people to do this too.

[edit on 8-10-2004 by Nygdan]

and there are no egyptian or sumerian records indicating the existence of atlantis either.

Not necessarily... The name "Atlantis" was as it was known by the Greeks. The original Egyptian name for the place is not given by Plato.

However, as I mentioned above, there are numerous references to a "Sea People" who warred with Egypt in Solon's past, and this does fit the account Solon gives Plato of such a sea power.

Thera is a pretty good contender, but it lacks the size, and continent status (remember the city of Atlantis is given as middle of a continent, midway on the longest side, etc.), as well as several other key points mentioned by Plato. The Altiplano in South America remains as adhering to nearly all of Plato's points of description.

Perhaps, but there aren't any known records, at least that I am aware of, that talk about a continent in the atlantic that was the seat of an ancient empire that had conquered all of europe and most of north africa, leaving egypt and athens free.

this does fit the account Solon gives Plato of such a sea power.

Perhaps, but then it would mean that there never was an atlantis. Also, where would plato have gotten all the other details from? THe sea peoples certainly weren't running a global empire and engaged in widespread international trade, let alone had orichalcum.

The Altiplano in South America remains as adhering to nearly all of Plato's points of description.

What is the evidence for trans-atlantic contact at that time? Seems possible that people could've gone from the coast of S.A to Africa, but what then? Traveling thru the med into egypt? People crossed the pacific, but that was by island hopping, and over the course of generations. THere should be some Altiplanan settlements in north africa no? Perhaps genetic evidence that they interbred with the locals? I keep hearing about mummies found with coc aine, whats that all about?

What is the evidence for trans-atlantic contact at that time?

Ancient Egyptian Mummies were found stuffed with various herbs such as tobacco, coc aine, etc. which grew only in South America. Rather recently, a team of archeologists constructed an Egyptian reed vessel, based on designs in Egyptian tombs, and with traditional materials. They successfully made the transatlantic journey with only tools available at the time. This would indicate the possibility of trade. Also, pre-columbian sculptures have been found in South America (particularly in the region around the Altiplano), that depict various African animals, such as elephants, lions, tigers, etc. How did the people know of such animals?

As for the evidence of such a power, we are talking about a time that was considered ancient history, to the ancient Egyptians! Records of ANY kind are almost non-existant for this time frame.... It's my belief that the Sea People are the descendants of former outposts of the ancient Atlantic empire. At the time of the Sea People, Atlantis itself was out of the game.

Yes but what is the primary source, the archaeological journal that this was reported in?

Rather recently, a team of archeologists constructed an Egyptian reed vessel,

Someone repeated Thor Heyerdal's experiment?

I've heard of elephant pictograms on stones in the east coast of north america too. I'd be interested to see the other scultpures, tho I'm not so sure lions and tigers would be too too convincing. Also, there have been frauds of 'dinosaur sculptures' presented as evidence of dinosaurs roaming south america, so I'd definitly like to see source material.

As for the evidence of such a power, we are talking about a time that was considered ancient history, to the ancient Egyptians! Records of ANY kind are almost non-existant for this time frame
Written records perhaps but certainly not archaeological records.

Originally posted by Nygdan
The only way to really go over this is too look at the actual method sitchin uses to translate cuneiform and the methods the other translators used. Does sitchin detail his method anywhere?
[edit on 8-10-2004 by Nygdan]

Well actually yes you do have a good idea of how he translated those texts. There are sites that run a side by side comparison of the vocabulary he interpreted versus what words other scholars have interepreted as.

No, they shouldn't, because the mainstream translations fit into the rest of what is known. Ideas like sitchins require a re-writing of everything, based on nothing.

Not necessarily. Did revolutionary scientist always follow mainstream? No. There were many scientist who came up with radically new ideas that were against common teaching. And that did require rethinking, re-doing, re-analyzing many things. Heres an example, Gregor Mendal was heavily criticized for his ideas that we have "genes." Why? becuase he was a straight C student in high school? Well guess what, once other scientist confirmed his ideas(many decades later), his ideas are now shoved down everyone's throats. The main point here is, sometimes you have to rewrite the history, science books, etc as new clues and leads come in. Whether Sitchen is right or wrong is for you to decide and your opinion. But do not discredit the fact that sometimes you do have to rewrite history and science.

>>quote by someone: Are there people out there that can help support Sitchins claims?

reply to above quote by Nygdan: Apparently not. Apparently its quite offensive to ask people to do this too.

Actually there are people who support his ideas. People such as Eric Von Daniken and his crew of researchers who are working on a series called "Chariots of the Gods" www.chariotsofthegods.com. And lets not forget Jason Martell either, as well as the people such as Dr. Harrington and his crew members.

[edit on 17-10-2004 by crijack]

Yes the Egyptians had a war with the Sea Peoples, as did every other civilization in the Mediterranean. The Sea Peoples invaded in 1200 BC and destroyed the Mycenaean and Hittite civilizations until the Egyptians beat them back at the Nile Delta.
Now how's this for speculation:

The catastrophe of 1200 BC coincides slightly with the crossings of Nibiru.
1 Sar is 3600 Earth Years.
If 2011/2012 is a passing of the Dwarf Star and its orbiting planets, whether visible or not then just subtract 3600 years from 2012.
You will get the year 1588 BC, a historically unstable time where the Minoan Civilization fell due to tidal waves and invading Mycenaeans and Sea peoples.
Also noted is the destruction of the Greek island of Thera around the similar time frame, showing that there was a geologically unstable period all around the time frames of 1600 - 1200 BC.

Subtract another 3600 years and you end up at 5188 BC, the same times when the Egyptian and Sumerian Civilizations arose under Dynastic rule.

One more subtraction and you get 8788 BC, the approximate time of the Great Deluge and destruction of the old civilizations.

------

My own theory is that the Annunaki had chose to interfere with the Earth's genetic experiment that was going on.
Now bear with me because this may seem ridiculous (I'm sure you've heard of this before).
During the old genetic experiment (A.k.a Middle East/Sumeria also the location of the old Atlantis when one changes the orientation of the Earth's crust and distribution of seawater), humans had more DNA strands active so that we could perceive more dimensions (We are still within the 3rd Dimension, but we could acknowledge the existence of others)

The Annunaki had come to Earth to help humans in their spiritual evolution at the time, our DNA was manipulated slightly so that we could work for them and breed faster. This was their first interference, the Annunaki council had allowed this because they saw humans had great potential. The second interference is when a group of Annunaki had fell in love with human women, starting with Shemyaza who fell in love with a dark haired human woman. Others soon followed, seeing the great freedoms available to them on the Earth. This was their second interference. The Annunaki council did not tolerate such action and Shemyaza assembled an army of the mutated giant children (Nephilim) along with Humans and Annunaki who supported their cause. The Annunaki council had found that they were cut off from Divine Communication because the actions in the name of love had changed the DNA code to teach us all a new lesson, that was of love. With such events occurring, the council had panicked and killed the army of Shemyaza.
Hundreds of years later the hatred did not stop, and humans had begun to war with each other using dimensional technology granted to them by the Annunaki. After nearly destroying each other, the Annunaki had sent many spiritually guided humans to the corners of the Earth to shut off the inter dimensional vortexes, so as to deactivate the DNA strands of human beings until the time comes that they are ready to accept such responsibilities again.

The Annunaki left the planet Earth after Nibiru passed once more at 5000 BC, they helped us establish civilizations so that we may survive. They had left in great sorrow, seeing the chaos and destruction they had brought to the planet in the name of good will. The council does not reside here in the 3rd density, but in higher ones where they can change the Earth's consciousness to their will. They are like our foster parents, who are now bored of their power and will grant us independence when we become ready to accept those new challenges.

As 2012 and Nibiru come closer, many more humans have been waking up to the Illusion of of the Material World and progressing quite quickly along their spiritual path. We will all continue our journey together as we enter the new DNA experiment.

I believe neither were the first. Sumerians were the first of their kind to rise after everything was almost wiped out, but that story is not just 5,000 years old, civs do it all the time. I believe the Atlantean folk existed in a time where those frozen palm trees on Antarctica werent so frozen and it wasnt at the south or The for real north. What we know as Africa-South America-Antarctica were one. Not Pangea either. Life was more advanced than now. Read "fingerprints of the Gods" by Graham Hancock. He confirms and proves how intelligent life has evaded these cataclysm.


To make a long story short.
Atlantis nor Annunaki were the first nor are they obviously the last.

reply to post by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS


Howdy Stars

Can you explain how Graham has proved any of this?

reply to post by Hanslune


By linking precession and the knowledge of it with archaic civilizations, and pre-historic animals. Antarctica maybe the most dead continent, but under its frozen layers are proof of a tropical continent that flourished with animal and plant life(maybe intelligent life-no records yet). He shows various maps of and ice free antarctica, one the most famous maps is know as "piri reis" which is said to be just a duplicate of a relic that was found way before the 1500 or 1600. Precession and this so called "nemesis" that comes to our solar system has been documented and studied longer than the life of modern science or modern civilizations. He also ties the pyramids in and other stuff...(structures, tablets,etc)

I also wanted to comment on this....Egypt did not have war with the sea people because they existed in two different times. The sea civilization before the deluge egypt afterward khemites before even though it was the same land.(except one tribe which Osiris represents that is actually different than any other bloodline of egypt.) It is said he came from the sea, from the west I believe. He is the only god in the first ennead that has blue skin, he his also the founding father of egypt. Another thing historically there are only 2 references of atlantis. Egyptian mythology and a greecian or roman philosopher that studied in egypt mythology and heard about an island. It was more like a continent but precession reduced it to 1 and then eventually erased it from physical existence.
Sumerians come into play around 5 or 6,000 years ago or so. Definitely not the first. Atlantis (just a guess) maybe about 15,000 or 20,000 years ago. Definitely not the first.
He(Graham Hancock) writes great books. Message of the Sphinx, Ark of the covenant are others I have read. Excellent literature.

Howdy Stars

Yes Graham does write well but regretably he writes about stuff that isn't based on facts and in some cases just makes up stuff. He bases a lot of material on stuff made up by people before him (hapgood) and doesn't research it and just accepts it as real.

Piri Reis. The Piri Reis map is a good example of how Graham operates. Its not at all mysterious and shows how Graham takes Hapgood ideas and promotes them as real. The map is real his interpertation of it is unreal.

There is no evidence for Nemesis nor is precession as important as Graham tries to make it.

I would suggest you look thru the threads here and you can find the truth about Piri Reis and other stuff that Graham has made up or misinterpreted.

I also wanted to comment on this....Egypt did not have war with the sea people because they existed in two different times.

Hmmmm, you've contradicted yourself here and I'm not sure what you meant. Historically the Egyptians did engage and finally defeat the Sea Peoples during the reign of Ramesses III.

Other comments

No deluge - I don't believe Graham claim there was a biblical style flood, he does go for a version of the scientificly accurate rise of sea levels AFAIK

Another thing historically there are only 2 references of atlantis. Egyptian mythology and a greecian or roman philosopher that studied in egypt mythology and heard about an island.

Only one reference by Plato who claims he got it third hand from the Egyptians. The Egyptians have no record of it.

I suggest you look up some of those subject that Graham goes on about and see what other people say about them. I think you'll find some of those explanation to be of interest.

Graham never said this is how it is. He simply puts in a "this makes the most sense"kind of way. You dont beleive the piri reis is a duplicate of an earlier map? Nemesis and precession is not important? What ever floats your boat. But the heavens have literally dictated earthly affairs since the beginning... and the most advanced civs in history represent these ideas.(including the US being the Eagle.) So...knowledge of the stars and heavens and survival may be more important some than others.
Historically---but we are focusing on a part of that is literally pre-his-storic. We are not referring to the same sea people, and if we are, you are contradicting yourself. How could Ramesess III defeat someone that is just in "folklore" someone they had "secondhand knowledge"about.

Graham does claim there was a global flood, science proves it also.
There were many deluges or ages or suns as India puts it. It was a global phenom, magnetism was effected along with the levels of the sea, the crust and the sun. There is a nice amount of data to support that.(how can all those be related?science hasnt touched that one yet.)

I will defenitely look into that though. I just like Hancock because he has found that circle. That interconnectedness of everything, I give him kudos for attempting to connect all of the dots.

I would like to remind you science can only prove things that are in the realm of science(which are thing confined to this dimension). Can science "prove" the state of the universe before the big-bang?No Can science fully explain gravity? or dark matter or black holes?

stop searching for scientific proof, there are other kinds.
Science is not the language where everything can be translated into an understanding. Scientificaly there is not onething that can be nothing and something at the sametime. But if you look at the concept of zero and how the ancients explained its relation to infinity and the void (nothingness)or God,all of everyones historical experiences fit properly. There are theorems with zero where people can literally make(1) something out of nothing(0). My point is science can only prove what is science. It will always be confined to one dimension(whats on the other side of a black hole?). In order for it to change, its laws must change, which will make it not science. Mathematics and symbolism does a far greater job explaining things of 'the higher degree'.
But thats not proven scientifically, so...
annunaki and atlantean arent the first.
excuse the sarcasm and the typos.....its late

Originally posted by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS
Nemesis and precession is not important? What ever floats your boat. But the heavens have literally dictated earthly affairs since the beginning... and the most advanced civs in history represent these ideas.

There's no evidence for this. The only civilizations involved with precessions were the Maya, and they're fairly late. And there's no evidence of a "nemesis." Humans have been recording star events for over 6,000 years and writing for that length of time. Go check the original records of the civilizations.

Graham does claim there was a global flood, science proves it also.

I'm afraid Hancock is very out of touch here. Science proves there was NOT a global flood.

There were many deluges or ages or suns as India puts it. It was a global phenom, magnetism was effected along with the levels of the sea, the crust and the sun. There is a nice amount of data to support that.(how can all those be related?science hasnt touched that one yet.)

Perhaps it's because it comes from people saying "I'm telling you this because god told me." When scientists said "okay... so we'll confirm what god says. We'll test it this way and that way (if there was a global flood then we see global sedimentation. Simple. All heavy particles fall out first, lighter ones next, and we know what places that flood look like.))" And when the scientists test it, they find no match for the statements.

The Hindus, for example, didn't predict/announce/talk about the rusting of the Earth at the Permian extinction or the impact of the Siberian traps though they could have located them and been very explicit about this.

Sup Byrd.

There is no evidence of precession? Maybe I didnt get it.?.

Precession is the change in the direction of the Earth's axis of rotation relative to the fixed stars, with a period of roughly 26,000 years.

Maybe you meant precession linked to cataclysms.
Yeah the Maya were probably the only ones able to keep something so precious alive even after their reign. Their late....?That knowledge they didnt develop or create the "computer" used to compute these events. it is far older than you think. It was passed down from a network of civilizations across the central and south american lands. And they had their own local languages but they spoke one common language. The proof is out there maybe, not all of it on the net, but books are amazing.
I think you overlooked what I said and hand picked the things that couldnt fit into your logic...
The global flood doesnt need to be proved by science, there are far more credible and accurate sources , HISTORY being one of them. How can you prove something that happend in the pass using modern ways of thinking.What im trying to say is, I dont think we can even begin to form a hypothesis on what a global flood looks like. How could we? you said it your self its never been proved by science----so how can we develop a scientific answer?The proof is archealogical data just sitting to tell a human anything about earth. That wasnt good enough" lets prove what god said" how about testing it this way, what could have happend on that big of a scale where it cause waters to rise. Thats how you approach that.

Prove God, how hilarious. Lets bring some of out theories on time travel to mainstream and try to prove how "elijah traveled with god for 500 years and didnt age a day" it took a hand few of millenia to recognize the possibility or even its validity. We now recognize this as (time trave-light speed-hyperspeed-something along those lines)we understand this not because "god told us or them" but because we have an understanding of how things work. God will always be right because truth and fact arent a matter of existence or belief but rather a matter of understanding.
The global flood wasnt 'The main event' it was part of bigger change on a grand scale. Similiar to how we are entering a new part of the celestial sphere, our age is up and weird phenom are happening.?? Californias Fires, Another supposed hurricane heading towards our south, Artic polar ice caps melting at a unprecedented rate just last week(last year was the record meltdown),Flights had to be cancelled in and out of Alaska because 1 of 3 volcanic eruptions, more sun flares, and those are just local issues there are A whole list more , I could probably fill a whole post with anomolies and record breaking events that really dont happend in "regular time" but since we are approaching......
The hindu dont speak of a "rusting of the earth" but every notable tribe or civilization has some kind of oral tradition connecting to a deluge.
Even atlantis the end of the myth goes. They grew greedy and they became very powerful, they had malicious rulers that were killed in a flood which made the island sink.
Atlantean and Anu arent not the first.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

Ah but that pesky thing called geological science disproved a global flood over 150 years ago. Rhetoric doesn't over turn fact.

Nice statements but not based on anything factual.

Yes there are facts in the world

Well some people are looking for a paper thats in modern english saying yes there is a flood. And this is what it looks like, yep, mmhmm right here, there and right there.
Nope, things so grand cant be found out with such pimitive methods. The moon has an effect on the tides, there could be a connection or an event that happend like that. That was an elementary attack on the problem(it was the first I thought of) but people never consider every avenue because there isnt enough "direct evidence" to support so many streets. A flood did happen the reason america doesnt take oral history serious is because we lack the type of foundation to process it. This country is a culture borrowering nation, it took a few hundred years to start seeing the "fire in the sky" when they couldve just listen to the lands original inhabitants.
Just my 2 or 3 cents there was a flood...

reply to post by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS


Stars sorry that is jus more rhetoric and hand waving. May I humbly suggest you do some reading in geology. The processes are well understood. There is abundant evidence for a world wide flood not occuring.

No all oral tradition is correct. If so then the world of land was created by a giant spear held by a goddess - or so Shinto oral tradition says until it was written down.

Hey depending how literal you are, a spear being thrown doesnt sound far from a meteor hitting a planet they just confirm it was slung on purpose....
Im just interpreting symbols... But honestly hans, all of the worlds most notable cultures, cultures that have given calculus and algebra and physics amongst things we as modern people couldnt live without. Like 25 civs, all of them our contributors to the way our country is even ran...You really think they a making this up? Whats your honest oppinion on"why are the most intelligent contributors suggesting the same thing,and they had no kind of contact what so ever? I would appreciate your honest answer.


[edit on 4-9-2008 by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS]