9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

Originally posted by johnlear OK. Please know this. I have been a pilot for almost 50 years. No airman has more FAA certificates than I do. I had over 19,000 hours when I retired in 2001, 16,000 in large jets. I have participated in many crash investigations. I have built airplanes, I have flown them, I have instructed in them, I have raced them and I have crashed them. The hypothesis that the wings and tail and fuel from a Boeing 757 disintegrated from the high kinectic energy of impact is pure, unadulterated, unmitigated B.S.

I do not profess to be a pilot, I do not profess to be certified by the FAA in any way shape or form. But, since you're a pilot, with a pile of FAA certs, please explain to us what you think would have happened to the wings. Anyone can pooh pooh about something somebody else posted, but it takes a real man to post something substiantial to counter it (as in some sort of proof other than your statement about your expertise). Surely you have seen the F4 tests when they flew two of them into concrete walls to test just how well a nuclear reactor shell would hold up against such an "accident"? I've been looking for the video online, and finally found it on Sandia Labs website- I recall what was left, do you? Itty bitty teenie weenie bits and peices of metal and little chunks of aluminum. Video 1 Video 2 Video 3 Video 4 (click for larger images, click links for videos) (Gosh darn it, that magic plane just up and disintegrated by running into a wall! What a load of unadulterated BS!!) So, please if you'd be so kind. Tell me how in the heck THIS plane can disintegrate going 320MPH into a wall and the 757 couldn't also break up into small chunks hitting the reinforced concrete/steel/kevlar wall of the Pentagon? [edit on 13-9-2004 by CatHerder]

Originally posted by johnlear About half way down the presentation there are 2 pictures of the hole in the Pentagon. One shows a policeman and the other shows a sign to the left of the hole that says No Parking. Now in neither of these pictures is the slightest damage, not the slightest charring of the walls next to the wall. How did the wings, which are shown still attached to the aircraft in the simulated video of the penetration get through the wall into the inside without leaving the slightest trace of damage?

Why don't you try looking at some of the links provided instead of dwelling on a picture taken of one of the inner rings where something punched through that wall from the inside. Try anderson.ath.cx:8000... for starters its a decent site. Once again the pic you are referring to is a pic of one of the inner rings where debris punched through from the inside. It is not a photo of the exterior wall.

CH you know they are going to say the plane is much smaller than a 757 don't you. But that is one good clip. Once again props to you for finding the goods

Originally posted by johnlear About half way down the presentation there are 2 pictures of the hole in the Pentagon. One shows a policeman and the other shows a sign to the left of the hole that says No Parking. Now in neither of these pictures is the slightest damage, not the slightest charring of the walls next to the wall. How did the wings, which are shown still attached to the aircraft in the simulated video of the penetration get through the wall into the inside without leaving the slightest trace of damage?

Uh, the photo you are referring to is the inside of the 3rd ring - the final point of penetration. The Pentagon wall would be through that hole, through two buildings, and 5 other walls - which is where the plane first impacted. I think a lot of people get confused by that. (Lots of photos to absorb without seeing the other 500 I've waded through while trying to just select 10 or so to post here). Here's a visual aid for you (they're free today only!). This picture here, to which you are reffering: Is in this location shown on this photo. The crash simulation video is by no means perfect - it does not take into account, properly, the effect the wall would have on the tail (only the body and wings are actually mathematically simulated - it says that if you'd read the included links to the website and whitepaper). I guess I could have included that information in my original post - but I assumed people would click all the links provided and read all the information before responding to individual parts of the post (parts that were coverred in the links). Sorry about that.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott A wheel assembly could have knocked that hole in the wall.

Good point.

Regardless of the dynamics of the collision, the collapse and the fire. The remains of the individuals manifested to AA77 were found in the Pentagon. If AA77 didn't hit the building, how did they get there?

Not to prolong this well trodden thread, but to point out that there are possibilities covering every element of this mystery, the Eric Hufschmid documentary "Painful Deceptions" points out that all the remains - passenger and pentagon employee- were bundled up and sent to an outside lab miles from washington DC, and identified in the days following the attack. He suggests that, as the plane disappeared from radar in ohio, that the passengers could have been offloaded, incinerated, and their remains flown to the lab that identified the DNA material. One thing I've always wondered - is it possible for a fire to incinerate all visually identifiable aircraft materials, and yet leave enough organic material to make 50+ positive DNA IDs? Is that plausible to anyone in the DNA analysis field?

But it didnt incinerate all identifiable parts of the plane. There's seats, luggage, components, bulkheads, engine parts, part of the American logo, wheels, tires, landing gear, and finally 60 dead people all listed on the plane's manifest... did you look at any of it?? How the heck did they get those 60 bodies into the Pentagon without anyone noticing? [edit on 12-9-2004 by CatHerder]

Originally posted by bunkbuster Not to prolong this well trodden thread, but to point out that there are possibilities covering every element of this mystery, the Eric Hufschmid documentary "Painful Deceptions" points out that all the remains - passenger and pentagon employee- were bundled up and sent to an outside lab miles from washington DC, and identified in the days following the attack. He suggests that, as the plane disappeared from radar in ohio, that the passengers could have been offloaded, incinerated, and their remains flown to the lab that identified the DNA material.

Of course it's possible. It's also possible the GWB is just a highly advanced robot with the vocabulary fo a 10-year old. But without any evidence to support such 'maybes', they really are inadmissible in any sort of debate over what happened.

The crash simulation video is by no means perfect - it does not take into account, properly, the effect the wall would have on the tail (only the body and wings are actually mathematically simulated - it says that if you'd read the included links to the website and whitepaper). I guess I could have included that information in my original post - but I assumed people would click all the links provided and read all the information before responding to individual parts of the post (parts that were coverred in the links). Sorry about that. Oh. Thanks CatHerder. (Going back to regroup).

Originally posted by CatHerder But it didnt incinerate all identifiable parts of the plane. How the heck did they get those 60 bodies into the Pentagon without anyone noticing? [edit on 12-9-2004 by CatHerder]

True. It did, however, incinerate everything that proved it was flight 77. I don't think the bodies were identified at the pentagon, but at a medical lab later. Therefore, according to Hufschmidt's theories, there would only have been pentagon employee bodies at the pentagon site.

Originally posted by CatHerderUh, the photo you are referring to is the inside of the 3rd ring - the final point of penetration. This picture here, to which you are reffering: Is in this location shown on this photo.

ok, but if that picture is from the 3rd section as depicted above, how come the sign on the wall says "NO PARKING, ANY TIME"? who would drive a car in there? looks pretty small a space for driving, let alone parking..... [edit on 13-9-2004 by nassau]

Originally posted by Esoterica It's also possible the GWB is just a highly advanced robot with the vocabulary fo a 10-year old. .

Except for the "highly advanced" part, I believe the last four years have proven this to be irrefutably true.

Originally posted by nassau who would drive a car in there? looks pretty small a space for driving, let alone parking.....

The Pentagon is a huge complex with vehicle access to every ring (for maintenance and supplies). As was available through the links provided in my original post, I've included two paragraphs from two seperate sources regarding the Pentagon. The Pentagon building is composed of five concentric pentagonal rings connected by ten radial corridors. Each of its outer walls is 921.6 feet long. The building covers 29 acres, the largest ground area of any office building in the world. A five-acre pentagonal courtyard is located in the building�s center. The building and its central courtyard cover 34 acres. There are 17.5 miles of corridors in the building. The structure is three times the size of the Empire State Building and 50 percent larger than Chicago�s Merchandise Mart. The building rests on 41,492 concrete piles, the combined length of which would stretch 200 miles. The five concentric pentagonal rings are separated by interior courts which serve as light wells. This design feature increases the number of windows allowing natural light. Each ring has five stories. The Mall and River sides of the building have a Basement area which includes a partial Mezzanine. The innermost and outermost rings have sloping slate roofs, while the other three rings have flat, built-up roofs. The rings are connected at each floor level by a series of ten radial corridors extending from the �A� ring (innermost) to the �E� ring (outermost). The Pentagon is virtually a city in itself. Approximately 23,000 employees, both military and civilian, contribute to the planning and execution of the defense of our country. These people arrive daily from Washington, D.C. and its suburbs over approximately 30 miles of access highways, including express bus lanes and one of the newest subway systems in our country. They ride past 200 acres of lawn to park approximately 8,770 cars in 16 parking lots; climb 131 stairways or ride 19 escalators to reach offices that occupy 3,705,793 square feet. While in the building, they tell time by 4,200 clocks, drink from 691 water fountains, utilize 284 rest rooms, consume 4,500 cups of coffee, 1,700 pints of milk and 6,800 soft drinks prepared or served by a restaurant staff of 230 persons and dispensed in 1 dining room, 2 cafeterias, 6 snack bars, and an outdoor snack bar. The restaurant service is a privately run civilian operation under contract to the Pentagon.

And to add another interesting fact. Even though the Pentagon is one of the largest buildings in the world, you can walk from any point in the building to any other point in the building in under seven minutes.

I don't believe a plane hit the pentagon. Here is the link that convinced me: 911research.wtc7.net...

regarding the accounts that the wings were vaporized before reaching the walls of the pentagon: what makes an airplane explode? i would suggest the fuel. where is the fuel stored? as far as i know - in the wings. then why would the airplane explode when the nose hit the wall? wouldn't the nose act more like a crushing ball? and then as the wings hit the wall, they would explode? it seems ot me the wings have no reason to explode and vaporize in a split second just because the nose hit a wall and even breaking through it.

Boy, this is great stuff! How long did it take you to put together?

Originally posted by nassau regarding the accounts that the wings were vaporized before reaching the walls of the pentagon:

How do wings vaporize before hitting the walls of the Pentagon? Do you mean the outer wall? I have still not seen enough evidence from either side to convince me that it was or was not a plane. I just don't know.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord This is not the Saturday Morning cartoons, objects do not create holes that represent their exact profile.

maybe not an EXACT profile, but pretty close... what stopped the wings from vaporizing before reaching the WTC?

Where the hell are you getting "vapourizing before hitting the wall" from? Did you read anything? Did you look at any of the science? Did you look at the F4 (which I provided a few posts up) ramming into a concrete wall and the result? What happened to the F4 that hit the wall? OF COURSE on the Pentagon (and any other crash into a wall) the NOSE hit first, THEN the wings hit and exploded after the nose had hit and was already penetrating the building. I would also *guess* that the starboard wing (right wing) was already beginning to explode before it hit the building due to it hitting the giant 40ton deisel generator 30 to 40 feet in front of the wall. How can you compare a building constructed of concrete floors and 3/16 inch double glazed glass windows (WTC) to a building constructed of reinforced concrete walls, upgraded with bomb-resistant kevlar, bolted steel beams and 2 inch thick bulletproof and bomb-resistent windows (Pentagon). I don't know why people don't read anything prior to posting comments or opinions. I sincerely do not see the point in it whatsoever. [edit on 13-9-2004 by CatHerder]

very well done article. however there will also be people who will argue that the sun doesnt come up in the east---those people cannot be helped.