9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

reply to post by weedwhacker Considering the training and intent of the hijackers, wouldn't they be somewhat familiar with emergency procedures like transponder changes? Preventing such codes being transmitted would be vital to their success after all IE no warnings or alerts of hijacking prior to the transponder being turned off which made them just another blip in a sea of blips. That would give them time to complete their mission while the military were buzzing virtually every domestic aircraft in the sky looking for tail numbers or other ID for positive identification. Just a thought

Not to be rude but Terrorists did it i'm sorry muslam freaks

reply to post by Anonymous ATS You're kinda new at this, aren't you? That photo comes from the A-E drive, where the plane debris exited. That ain't the entrance hole. Catherder laid out the entrance hole and all that on the first page.

reply to post by Pilgrum Pilgrum, they DID know how turn "off" the Xponder. It is simple, just select to STBY. (There is no actual "OFF" position).

reply to post by ULTIMA1

How is it insulting to pilots? Is it just becasue its a serious question? Please show me anywere in FAA regs about it being ok to hand over control of a plane to hijackers.

A quick question for you, Ultima. If you're walking down the street and someone comes up to you while pointing a gun at your face and forces you to give him your wallet are you giving it away or is it taken away?

reply to post by SickSoul

Bottom line is: anyone kicking in the cockpit door would have an easy match taking out the pilots within seconds, so, the answer to your question is a big YES! And dont you ever dare coming back in another thread asking the same question again, because if you do i will come back to haunt you, i swear!

Just one quick point here; the doors may not have had to been kicked in. The FAA mandated that cockpit door keys were readily accessible by the passenger cabin crew after a fire on another commercial airliner severed the communication line between the flight attendants and the cockpit crew. American Airlines flight attendants had them on their person and United Airlines kept their cockpit door key in the overhead storage been in first class. The hijackers took several ''reconnaissance flights'' in the weeks prior to September 11 which would a given them the opportunity to learn where the keys were kept.

reply to post by weedwhacker It seems reasonable that these hijackers would have known what alerts the pilots could initiate and plan to prevent them doing that. They were familiar enough with the cockpit to recognise what the pilot was reaching for if an attempt was made to send any kind of signal and preventing that would give them an increased chance of ultimate success.

Ive analysed that footage of a so-called plane hitting the pentagon .... no way a large aircraft could be brought in so quickly and low as the footage suggests ...... more like some sort of missile .... given the low and swift proximity with the ground!

reply to post by Lizard1 Sorry Lizard....there just isn't much video of the actual impact to 'analyse' so, your statement isn't very credible. I'm sure ULTIMA1 has pointed this out repeatedly. But, your other points, I respectfully beg to differ with you. An airplane (a B757, for instance) can indeed be flown at high speed, at just a few hundred feet above the ground. IF you were to stand, and look at the area around the Pentagon with your own eyes, you would be able to see how a jet could be flown in, at low level, and then dive in at the last second for the impact. It's ironic, and horrible to suggest....but if the raghead at the controls was smart, he would have hit higher up....more debris would have been flung into the courtyard (affectionately called 'Ground Zero' back in the Cold War era) and possibly across to cause more damage on the other inner ring. Again, there are no tall buildings along the route AAL77 flew. The raghead lined up on a highway, followed it....then aimed at the last seconds until impact...all by hand/eye flying. A bright, clear and sunny morning....visibility was 'unlimited'..... I live here, and was just a few miles away, at the time......

reply to post by Lizard1 Also take into account that even at the low end of its speed, an aircraft flying close to the ground will always seem to be flying faster. It's just an optical illusion of the eye thinking it's flying faster than they really are.

reply to post by HLR53K HLR, that's an interesting observation. I invite all to take some time and look at videos.....many on YouTube... of jets landing, at various airports. The optical illusion is apparent, when you see a jumbo, like the B747 compared to a B737 or A320. A Jumbo, aka the B747 or B777 might have a Vref on final approach of....145 to 155 knots. Depending on weight, even a narrowbody will have a Vref on approach close to that....maybe 15 knots slower...but could you tell the difference of 15 knots, as viewed from the ground? It is the relative size of the airplane that provides the illusion.....it is how we humans tend to perceive the World around us.

reply to post by weedwhacker Yep! Just to reinforce with some numbers (as you know I love doing!). That 145 knots equals just under 245 ft/s. On the ground, 10 feet seems like a pretty good distance, 100 feet even bigger. But realize that at 245 ft/s, that airplane will cover that 100 feet in roughly .408 seconds. Take a football field. 360 feet. Takes 1.469 seconds to cover. Simple math. 100 feet divided by 245 ft/s or 360 divided by 245 ft/s. [edit on 15-6-2008 by HLR53K]

reply to post by HLR53K HLR, and of course your math is correct...and before anyone comes along to complain, please remember the units used. One NM equals 6060 feet. That's different from a SM, which equals 5280 feet. Not much of a sports fan, but I do know a little....a normal American football field is 100 yards, so that's three hundred feet??? Anyway, the few extra 60 feet are not important. It's just a way to help people visualize, anyway. AND, as I view the Pentagon parking lot, with my own eyes....it's certainly longer than a football field. Now....when you see a B757 on final approach to landing, know that its speed is about 125 to 140 knots (we have a Vref based on landing weight, and any additional speed is based on wind conditions. we ALWAYS add 5 knots to Vref....then, one-half the steady wind and all of the gust, up to a MAXIMUM of 20 knots over Vref). That's how we do it. Now, imagine it's going almost five times faster....clean configuration, slats and flaps up, gear up. Well, hope you get the picture.....

Originally posted by weedwhacker Two pilots meekly being herded to the Coach cabin?? I don't buy it for one second.

www.satp.org...(2)/CN_ghosh.htm

The wife of the Solicitor General, Barbara K Olson called her husband, at the Justice Department at 09:25 hrs from the ‘plane to tell him about the hijacking and to report that the passengers and pilots were being held towards the rear of the plane.

Originally posted by Boone 870 A quick question for you, Ultima. If you're walking down the street and someone comes up to you while pointing a gun at your face and forces you to give him your wallet are you giving it away or is it taken away?

Comparing apples and oranges again?

Can anyone tell me in the history of hijackings how many planes DID NOT get off an emergancy call or signal? What are the odds of 4 planes in the same day not geting off an emergency call or signal?

Sure, one. The "hijacker" was a disgruntled employee who still had his badge, walked into the cockpit and killed the crew and crashed the plane. Can you tell us how many, besides that one and 9/11, were successfully deliberately crashed before 9/11?

reply to post by ULTIMA1

A passenger on a Greyhound bus slashed the neck of the driver early this morning, and as the two men struggled for control of the steering wheel, the bus careered across two lanes of oncoming traffic on an Interstate highway and flipped over, killing the assailant and five other passengers, law enforcement officials said. nytimes

Ultima, did the driver of this bus give up control or was it taken from him?

reply to post by ULTIMA1

On July 23, 1999, the Boeing 747-481D on this route was hijacked by Yuji Nishizawa soon after it took off, at about 11:25 A.M. The jet was flying over the Boso Peninsula in the Chiba Prefecture. The aircraft carried 503 passengers, including 14 children, as well as 14 crew members at the time. About 25 minutes after takeoff, Nishizawa used a 20 centimeter kitchen knife to force the flight attendant to let him into the cockpit. He then made 34-year old copilot Kazuyuki Koga leave the cockpit, remaining in the cockpit with captain Naoyuki Nagashima , who managed to notify ATC about the hijacking. He then stabbed Nagashima in the chest and took control of the plane, at one point descending to an altitude of 300 meters. At 12:09 P.M., crew members subdued the man. Wiki

Ultima1, did the crew of this flight give up control of the aircraft or was it taken from them? [edit on 16-6-2008 by Boone 870]

reply to post by ULTIMA1

When the three men reached the cockpit, one or more forced their way in. After 15 minutes, the co-pilot had been beaten and forced from the flight deck. The hijackers were armed with a fire extinguisher and small fire ax, and they threatened to blow up the plane with a bomb. The hijackers announced on the intercom in Amharic, French, and broken English that they were "opponents" of the Ethiopian government seeking political asylum and had recently been released from prison. They stated they were changing the direction of the aircraft and threatened to blow it up if interfered with. It was later discovered that their "bomb" was a covered, unopened bottle of liquor. Source

Ultima, did the crew of this flight give up control of the aircraft or was it taken from them?