9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

Originally posted by HowardRoark Once the plane penetrated the exterior wall, the only walls the debris would have hit would have been interior partitions until it exited to the A-E drive. Please get this straight. I am tired of trying to explain this over and over again. The plane did not go in and out of three rings.

How could the fuselage penetrate 3 rings while the engines don't make a hole in the first ring?

Not three rings, one large office space with drywall partitions.

Those who believe the official story, as you, are full of vague comments. The walls were drywall, yet they were simple masonry, yet they were above the first floor, on and on. None of you have provided a detailed, specific and accurate portrayal of the Pentagon because you probably can't anyway. Let me ask you, HowardRoark, since you seem to claim that the entire 757 punched through the first wall, sailed through a contiguous interior space until exited through the rear C ring wall: how high up is that ceiling that joins the rings? You're saying that if you're standing inside those rings, the immediate ceiling above you is at least 45 ft? And if you don't agree with 45 ft, that means that you're claiming that the tail sheared off when it hit the first wall. Where is it? Let's, for the sake of argument, believe that the tail went poof and disappeared before the fuselage plowed through the rings: is the ground floor's immediate ceiling 25-30 ft above the floor?

Originally posted by HowardRoark I believe that everything is laying there in the pile of debris out side the hole.

Everything is laying there? Where is it? There are absolutely no pictures in these 150+ pages that show much of anything being there.

As for the nice clean sides of the hole? The next time you talk to a bricklayer ask him to explain control joints to you.

Two days ago, I posted:

Please provide me with the plans, in detail, that give you this information. Hopefully it will have each and every wall (all six walls), each and every thickness and each and every material composition.

I still await a response. And not some iffy diagrams. Corroborated, undeniable documentation of the exact composition and thickness of all walls along with the floorplans and exact dimensions of those three rings the supposed 757 plowed through.

Originally posted by vandalizor These quotes are pretty much my point. You can look at them collectively and you can see that the general consensus is a aircraft of commercial design struck the Pentagon. How many people know a 737 from a 747 from a 757 from DC9 from an L1011, etc... I could tell some, but certainly not all. How many of the people that know the differences can distinguish them in the momentary glimpse they are presented as it is moving at 500MPH? How many of the people that now the differences and could tell them from a glimpse of the aircraft moving at 500MPH, were actually present, in eyewitness range of the pentagon on 9/11 @ approx 9:30? I don't discount the eyewitness reports all together, but they are not ironclad proof of anything other than what struck the pentagon was most likely a commercial passenger type aircraft. Sure there is one guy at the beginning that says "it was like a cruise missile with wings", well cruise missiles have wings big guy... Tells me he probably wouldn't know a cruise missile if there was one on his front lawn and I would be suprised if there was more to that qoute, like "Yeah, it was an aircraft flying so low it was like a cruise missile with wings..." People tend to twist quotes to only present what supports their case and tend to omit what doesn't.

General consensus? There are eyewitnesses that claim to have seen an 8-12 seater... So what you're saying is that if out of 5 people, 2 claim a 737, 1 claims a 747, 1 claims a missile and 1 claims a 8-12 seater, this can enable us to say it was definitely a commercial jet?!?!? Never mind a commercial jet, you guys are saying that eyewitness reports help prove it was a 757. They do nothing of the sort.

Originally posted by Dansker Aluminium, passengers, seats, floor, luggage, cargo and several tons of fuel. And i'm guessing the internal walls are not as solid as the external ones. It only punched through one exterior masonry wall. The outer wall in this case had also been reinforced with kevlar that keeps fractured parts beyond the immidiate impact area in place, and prevents the wall from caving in. At least for a while...

Again, for those who make these claims: Please provide me with the plans, in detail, that give you this information. Hopefully it will have each and every wall, each and every thickness and each and every material composition. Not some iffy diagrams. Corroborated, undeniable documentation of the exact composition and thickness of all walls along with the floorplans and exact dimensions of those three rings the supposed 757 plowed through.

Originally posted by Dansker Here's a close up of the hole in the outer wall before the building collapsed. I've circled the approximate outline of the fuselage impact area, but as you can see, the hole spreads to the left and right and is not exactly narrow.... Here's a couple of pictures I stole there...

One small problem, Dansker. The engines don't fit. The tail doesn't fit either.

Originally posted by vandalizor Here is an article written by someone who is pretty much on the same page as me with regard to why there is no way our government would try an pull something like this. Does it disprove anything, no. But it is funny to read something written by someone who sees the same thing as me. Here is another article that pretty much outlines why a 9/11 conspiracy by our government is implausable. Again, it doesn't prove or disprove a conspiracy, but merely shows how illogical and disproportionately dangerous (risk vs. gains) it would be for our government to have had any involvement on any level in this. Other than of course perhaps gross negligence and criminal incompetence in protecting some 3000 Americans. It brings up points I have listed already as to why the pieces don't logically fit, and a few more I haven't brought up. Obviously I have been doing some reading on the subject...('

') Never a bad thing....

And I commend you for it. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. However, as you said yourself, you've disproved nothing. Furthermore, improbable is not close to highly or extremely improbable, never mind impossible, which would need to be demonstrated so as to claim it was a 757, or to be more precise, Flight 77's 757.

Hey, let's not leave these quotes out.

"A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "'It added power on its way in,' he said. 'The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball.'" - "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Traffic is normally slow right around the Pentagon as the road winds and we line up to cross the 14th Street bridge heading into the District of Columbia. I don’t know what made me look up, but I did and I saw a very low-flying American Airlines plane that seemed to be accelerating. My first thought was just 'No, no, no, no,' because it was obvious the plane was not heading to nearby Reagan National Airport. It was going to crash." - "September 11 Remembered." University Week, 4 Oct 2001

"Northern Virginia resident John O'Keefe was one of the commuters who witnessed the attack on the Pentagon. 'I was going up 395, up Washington Blvd., listening to the the news, to WTOP, and from my left side-I don't know whether I saw or heard it first- I saw a silver plane I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet,' said the 25-year-old O'Keefe, managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication about lobbying. 'It came swooping in over the highway, over my left shoulder, straight across where my car was heading. I'd just heard them saying on the radio that National Airport was closing, and I thought, "That's not going to make it to National Airport." And then I realized where I was, and that it was going to hit the Pentagon. There was a burst of orange flame that shot out that I could see through the highway overpass. Then it was just black. Just black, thick smoke.'" - "Terrorist 'Situation'." American Lawyer Media, 11 Sep 2001

urbanlegends.about.com...

Richard Benedetto, a USA TODAY reporter, was on his way to work, driving on the Highway parrallel to the Pentagon : "It was an American Airlines airplane, I could see it very clearly.(...) I didn't see the impact. (...) The sound itself sounded more like a thud rather than a bomb (...) rather than a loud bomb explosion it sounded muffled, heavy, very deep. I didn't see any flaps, it looked like the plane was just in normal flying mode but heading straight down. It was straight. The only thing we saw on the ground outside there was a piece of a ... the tail of a lamp post.

Traffic was at a standstill. I heard a rumble, looked out my driver's side window and realized that I was looking at the nose of an airplane coming straight at us from over the road (Columbia Pike) that runs perpendicular to the road I was on. The plane just appeared there- very low in the air, to the side of (and not much above) the CITGO gas station that I never knew was there. My first thought was "Oh My God, this must be World War III!" In that split second, my brain flooded with adrenaline and I watched everything play out in ultra slow motion, I saw the plane coming in slow motion toward my car and then it banked in the slightest turn in front of me, toward the heliport. In the nano-second that the plane was directly over the cars in front of my car, the plane seemed to be not more than 80 feet off the ground and about 4-5 car lengths in front of me. It was far enough in front of me that I saw the end of the wing closest to me and the underside of the other wing as that other wing rocked slightly toward the ground. I remember recognizing it as an American Airlines plane -- I could see the windows and the color stripes. And I remember thinking that it was just like planes in which I had flown many times but at that point it never occurred to me that this might be a plane with passengers. In my adrenaline-filled state of mind, I was overcome by my visual senses. The day had started out beautiful and sunny and I had driven to work with my car's sunroof open. I believe that I may have also had one or more car windows open because the traffic wasn't moving anyway. At the second that I saw the plane, my visual senses took over completely and I did not hear or feel anything -- not the roar of the plane, or wind force, or impact sounds. The plane seemed to be floating as if it were a paper glider and I watched in horror as it gently rocked and slowly glided straight into the Pentagon. At the point where the fuselage hit the wall, it seemed to simply melt into the building. I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made contact with the wall. It appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage at the point of contact and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later realized that it was probably the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete. The churning smoke ring started at the top of the fuselage and simultaneously wrapped down both the right and left sides of the fuselage to the underside, where the coiling rings crossed over each other and then coiled back up to the top. Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring. At that point, the wings disappeared into the Pentagon. And then I saw an explosion and watched the tail of the plane slip into the building. It was here that I closed my eyes for a moment and when I looked back, the entire area was awash in thick black smoke.

911research.wtc7.net... [edit on 5/26/2006 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by Wizy

Originally posted by ANOK Pls show evidence of this, you have a habit of making claims without anything to back them up...

If you missed the countless and numerous images and photographs posted throughout this thread, showing these parts,then that is not my problem. Why must I repost images that have already been posted? Im not the lazy one.

Countless? Spare me, there isn't even one. I dare you to show us one picture that captured an undeniably 757 part.

I would love to see the rotor blades you talk about specificaly...And these many other engine parts you claim were found.

Posted within this thread. dont be a lazy couch potato. Search this thread.

I've seen each and every picture in these 150+ pages for over a year now and as I just said, show us one picture of an undeniable 757 part.

dont have to since Im neither. I go by the evidence, many of which has been posted within this thread.

Again, show us one piece of undeniable evidence of a 757 part.

One thing I do know a little about is jet engines having been a jet mechanic in the military...

But appraently you know nothing about plane crashes.

But apparently you do

Here's another good quote for you.

Frank Probst : a Pentagon renovation worker and retired Army officer, he was inspecting newly installed telecommunications wiring inside the five-story, 6.5-million-square-foot building.The tall, soft-spoken Probst had a 10 a.m. meeting. About 9:25 a.m., he stopped by the renovation workers' trailer just south of the Pentagon heliport. Someone had a television turned on in the trailer's break room that showed smoke pouring out of the twin towers in New York. "The Pentagon would make a pretty good target," someone in the break room commented. The thought stuck with Probst as he picked up his notebook and walked to the North Parking Lot to attend his meeting. Probst took a sidewalk alongside Route 27, which runs near the Pentagon's western face. Traffic was at a standstill because of a road accident. Then, at about 9:35 a.m., he saw the airliner in the cloudless September sky. American Airlines Flight 77 approached from the west, coming in low over the nearby five-story Navy Annex on a hill overlooking the Pentagon. He has lights off, wheels up, nose down," Probst recalled. The plane seemed to be accelerating directly toward him. He froze. "I knew I was dead," he said later. "The only thing I thought was, 'Damn, my wife has to go to another funeral, and I'm not going to see my two boys again.'" He dove to his right. He recalls the engine passing on one side of him, about six feet away. The plane's right wing went through a generator trailer "like butter," Probst said. The starboard engine hit a low cement wall and blew apart. He still can't remember the sound of the explosion. Sometimes the memory starts to come back when he hears a particularly low-flying airliner heading into nearby Reagan National Airport, or when military jets fly over a burial at Arlington National Cemetery. Most of the time, though, his memory is silent. "It was pretty horrible," he said of the noiseless images he carries inside him, of the jet vanishing in a cloud of smoke and dust, and bits of metal and concrete drifting down like confetti. On either side of him, three streetlights had been sheared in half by the airliner's wings at 12 to 15 feet above the ground. An engine had clipped the antenna off a Jeep Grand Cherokee stalled in traffic not far away. www.militarycity.com...

911research.wtc7.net...

Originally posted by HowardRoark Perhaps you missed the post from dansker with this drawing:

How does the drawing fit real life pictures? If we take the drawing as legit, I'll simply ask, how did the fuselage penetrate the outher ring and all the way out on the other side of ring C (not taking typewriters into account) while the engines did nowhere near the same feat? Sincerely Cade [edit on 26-5-2006 by Cade] [edit on 26-5-2006 by Cade]

It would seem that fairly dense, with lots of titanium, engines go poof when they hit a generator or reinforced wall and disappear while a hollow aluminum shell pierces wall after wall....

Have you seen what happens to an engine when a BIRD hits it? You have fan blades spinning at near supersonic speeds. When they get disrupted you tend to have a catastrophic engine failure, and your engine explodes. MOST of the time it's contained in the engine casing, but there have been many times when the engine just came apart.

Originally posted by Zaphod58 Here's another good quote for you.

Frank Probst : a Pentagon renovation worker and retired Army officer, he was inspecting newly installed telecommunications wiring inside the five-story, 6.5-million-square-foot building.The tall, soft-spoken Probst had a 10 a.m. meeting. About 9:25 a.m., he stopped by the renovation workers' trailer just south of the Pentagon heliport. Someone had a television turned on in the trailer's break room that showed smoke pouring out of the twin towers in New York. "The Pentagon would make a pretty good target," someone in the break room commented. The thought stuck with Probst as he picked up his notebook and walked to the North Parking Lot to attend his meeting. Probst took a sidewalk alongside Route 27, which runs near the Pentagon's western face. Traffic was at a standstill because of a road accident. Then, at about 9:35 a.m., he saw the airliner in the cloudless September sky. American Airlines Flight 77 approached from the west, coming in low over the nearby five-story Navy Annex on a hill overlooking the Pentagon. He has lights off, wheels up, nose down," Probst recalled. The plane seemed to be accelerating directly toward him. He froze. "I knew I was dead," he said later. "The only thing I thought was, 'Damn, my wife has to go to another funeral, and I'm not going to see my two boys again.'" He dove to his right. He recalls the engine passing on one side of him, about six feet away. The plane's right wing went through a generator trailer "like butter," Probst said. The starboard engine hit a low cement wall and blew apart. He still can't remember the sound of the explosion. Sometimes the memory starts to come back when he hears a particularly low-flying airliner heading into nearby Reagan National Airport, or when military jets fly over a burial at Arlington National Cemetery. Most of the time, though, his memory is silent. "It was pretty horrible," he said of the noiseless images he carries inside him, of the jet vanishing in a cloud of smoke and dust, and bits of metal and concrete drifting down like confetti. On either side of him, three streetlights had been sheared in half by the airliner's wings at 12 to 15 feet above the ground. An engine had clipped the antenna off a Jeep Grand Cherokee stalled in traffic not far away. www.militarycity.com...

911research.wtc7.net...

Good quote my butt... Where are all the exploded parts? If it "exploded" outside, where are the parts? I love it when you guys cherry pick eyewitness accounts and offer it as proof of something. Kind of reminds me of the intelligence on Iraqi WMD

Ah yes, as you and anok and the other no plane at the Pentagon people have said, we've OBVIOUSLY seen every single picture taken at the Pentagon that day and it CLEARLY shows that there was no engine debris or no plane parts out there.

Let's play the "good quote" game! Here's a "good quote": "Buildings don't eat planes. That plane, it just vanished. There should have been parts on the ground. It should have rained parts on my car. The airplane didn't crash. Where are the parts?... There was a plane. It didn't go over the building. It went into the building. I want them to find it whole, wedged between floors or something. I know that isn't going to happen, but right now I pretend. I want to see footage of the crash. I want to make it make sense. I want to know why there's this gap in my memory, this gap that makes it seem as though the plane simply became invisible and banked up at the very last minute, but I don't think that's going to happen." Oh! Oh! Here's another "good quote": "This is a hole in -- there was a punch-out. They suspect that this was where a part of the aircraft came through this hole, although I didn't see any evidence of the aircraft down there. (...) This pile here is all Pentagon metal. None of that is aircraft whatsoever."

Originally posted by Zaphod58 Have you seen what happens to an engine when a BIRD hits it? You have fan blades spinning at near supersonic speeds. When they get disrupted you tend to have a catastrophic engine failure, and your engine explodes. MOST of the time it's contained in the engine casing, but there have been many times when the engine just came apart.

....and disappeared....

Originally posted by Zaphod58 Ah yes, as you and anok and the other no plane at the Pentagon people have said, we've OBVIOUSLY seen every single picture taken at the Pentagon that day and it CLEARLY shows that there was no engine debris or no plane parts out there.

No, and please stop your tactic, because your position is weak, of twisting things around. I said, copy/paste:

I've seen each and every picture in these 150+ pages for over a year now and as I just said, show us one picture of an undeniable 757 part.

You're thus weakening your already extremely weak assertions, with such obvious tactics.

Originally posted by Aris And I commend you for it. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. However, as you said yourself, you've disproved nothing. Furthermore, improbable is not close to highly or extremely improbable, never mind impossible, which would need to be demonstrated so as to claim it was a 757, or to be more precise, Flight 77's 757.

Of course, because something is improbable, doesn't make it impossible. However, I don't believe they have to show impossible, because it is not impossible that AA Flight 77 did hit the Pentagon. Anyone can sit back and say, "where's this, where's that". "Joe saw a propeller commuter plane, tim saw something like a cruise missile, tom saw a 747 and dick and harry saw a 737, and vic saw a flying saucer" and completely ignore the dozens of eyewitnesses that report seeing an AA commercial jet almost hit their cars while stuck in traffic, or while near the Pentagon. My point is you are not likely to have the "evidence" you require for years if ever. Even when it is presented, most conspiracy people will just write it off as fabricated anyway and demand something else so they can hold onto their conspiracy. Ask yourself this, if the government released a picture of what was left of the port engine, with the a serial number\ID number clearly visible and traced back to the 757 from Flight 77, would you say "ok I was wrong, it's not a conspiracy", flight 77 did hit the pentagon, or would you say "this proves nothing, the government obviously planted this or fabricated the evidence"? I have listed why I don't believe it's a conspiracy and that flight 77 did in fact hit the Pentagon. My decision is based on the evidence and my experience dealing with the US government and foreign experiences. As I have stated, My belief is that if there is a conspiracy, that conspiracy is covering up the level of incompetence demonstrated by the different US government's agencies failure to protect 3000 Americans on 9/11.

The "key is in the hole" so to speak. Claims of how many rings or how thick or how dense the rings were or were not is pointless. What ever you agree on, it doesn't add up. Here's the obvious key to solving the question: 1) if it was "only" office material and not much resistance, then why did the engines not knock right through it? 2) if it was 3 rings of very hard to penetrate walls, then how did the fuselage knock through 3 of them and yet the engines did not? Debating how thick the walls were etc. is like argueing if Oswald fired 4 or 5 shots instead of asking why the president was pushed back and to the left. It's like debating heat coating on the WTC without asking how did they collaps straight down at such high speed (demolition characteristics). It's all about making the debate confusing and scientific so that as few as possible will dare to participate. Make it simple, and it's obvious. People of the world, we are debating while hawks are taking away our freedom. Are we able to wake up? Sincerely Cade [edit on 26-5-2006 by Cade]

Originally posted by Cade

Originally posted by HowardRoark Perhaps you missed the post from dansker with this drawing:

How does the drawing fit real life pictures?

If we take the drawing as legit, I'll simply ask, how did the fuselage penetrate the outher ring and all the way out on the other side of ring C (not taking typewriters into account) while the engines did nowhere near the same feat? Sincerely Cade [edit on 26-5-2006 by Cade] [edit on 26-5-2006 by Cade]

Simple, the entire fueselage didn't, just the heavier pieces did. The engines were running at full throttle when they impacted the building. Parts of the engine were going in excess of 10,000 rpm.