9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

Dont try and catagorize me into anything my friends. Howard I was not debating weather a 757 crossed that freeway at lightpole highth or not. I was stating that the groung effect would be greater than the engine thrust, when it comes to a force being transfered to the freeway. You are way wrong about the nose down attitude. If a 757 was going 500 mph just above the ground, she is going to be fighting the pilot and wanting to go to a very high altitude. You ever ride in th jump seat of a fully areobatic craft that is made for this trype of flying? I will tell you something when you cross the deck within ground effect at a mere 230-250 mph it fights the pilot and he has eo keep foreward pressure on th stick. The airfoil on the 757 is made for high speed high altitude flying, and in flight thrust and speed equals altitude. You dont gain altitude by pulling back on the stick/yoke, you do it by increasing you speed, the higher the speed the more altitude you get. To fly on the deck at high speed requires a lot of forward pressure on the stick and that damn plane is going to be bucking hard.

Originally posted by AgentSmith Problem is Howard, a lot of people don't try and work out what the conspiracy is (if any) by piecing together the evidence. Instead they have some strange desire to want a conspiracy and will desperately try and fit evidence to the crime they have already created in their heads.

It's a hell of a lot more likely that certain others here will just not accept that something much more frightening than an al-Qaeda attack went down, because of the impact it would have on their sensitive little world views, you know? Poor little world view, taught in grade school. That would make a whole lot more sense from a psychological perspective than "some strange desire to want a conspiracy," no?

Man I bet my world view would scare the crap out of you… In a simple nutshell, being a Historicist I believe that the US is the Second beast of Revelations and will enforce the mark, that all this terrorism stuff is the excuse they will use to bring about the mark, the frequency of weird weather and natural disasters will increase and speed up, that there is no Rapture until the “final trumpet” of revelations, and we have been in the season of the final days since 2000, and yet I still believe that a 757 hit the Pentagon. You still think I have a cozy little world view, and that I am afraid to say this or that person is behind it?

That's not so far off from my view, Def, except, regardless of what hit the Pentagon (I really don't have an opinion), I think the US made it happen, and then used it as an excuse. I see the US going the same road as 1930's Germany did, with the FEMA camp business doing nothing to help that. But regardless, you know most people won't look on such issues with any such light, but see nothing unusual as compared to what they have seen thus far in day to day life; as if the history we make today is rather dull and static, and any oddities are taken at face value for convenience. You know? A 757 could very well have hit the Pentagon, it's just the same to me, but the way those two towers fell makes it clear that we've had another Reichstag Fire thrown in our faces. That's what's important: knowing that we're back in fascist territory again, as if 9/11 is the only clue-in to that one, eh? Mankind hasn't had poo this raunchy stuck to its shoe since the Nazis, but just like the German people during the era of the Nazis, most people either don't care or will try to argue for the sake of their own schemas that it's just stinky dirt with the occasional digested bit of corn, by coincidence, of course. I hope you enjoy that metaphor, too. I don't know where it came from but it works well enough.

This is an interesting new way to discuss this conspiracy, but most likely a topic for a different thread. However, I will say this much. What makes us think that it must be simplified down to “this guy” or “that group” was behind the conspiracy that caused 911? Let’s face the real reason that most of you dispute 911, simply put, it’s the best way you can find to prove the Bush Administration is behind the NWO. For others it’s the best way of putting them down and getting them impeached, which has been the agenda of many Democrats since President Clinton got impeached and the Republicans took office. If you can prove that no plane hit the building, and that the towers came down by demolitions then you can prove the government, and thus the Bush administration is behind it. There is also a small group out there who know that conspiracy sells to the above group and they are raking in cash at everyone else’s expense, while adding further confusion to the mix. One the other side you have some guys who push that things went down according to the government story to defend the Bush administration. There are others that perhaps do it for the reasons that you mention, because it frightens them to think that their government could possible be involved in this. Then you got guys like me. I could care less who is in office, because I truly believe this would have happened no matter who was in the White House on that day. From my view, it was destined to happen, everything that we are seeing now was prophesized way before the idea man would ever fly was even conceived. Now true maybe it does not explicitly state that planes would hit buildings, but the prophets knew that something would occur that would force man to give up the one thing that even God would never try and take from him, and that is his Free Will. When I mentioned the mark above that is what I am talking about, man in his quest for security, worldliness, and comfort being willing to allow his government to track him, spy on him, and be aware of his most intimate details at will. Talk about coincidental timing, why are we suddenly having a situation which is causing the government to take away our rights now? Why at this point when we have seen whole cities literally destroyed within years of 911? What about the weather being all out of synch, the 75% drop in the gulf steam, the sun acting funny, the poles reversing, the increase in space dust, the earth moving into the dark matter rift as the Mayans predicted, The increases in earthquakes, and the whole ring of fire lighting up like never before in modern history? Is the government behind all of that as well? Some would say yes, which is why we are seeing folks make outrageous claims about Haarp and chemtrails. Is there a NWO, are they behind this? Did they go back in time and write almost all religious prophecies, regardless of which religion, so that most seem to be coming to pass at this point in history? What about the Mayan Calendar (did they hire John Titor to go back and set that for 2012), or the idea that this world is created and destroyed in intervals or ages? Is there really any man made organization that could pull this all off? I think that the answer is simpler then even all of that, but it is what most are afraid to hear so they make the government the bad guy. I am sure that most in high level world government know what is happening and so do most of the world’s elite, and they are doing what is in their best interest at the moment to ensure their survival. There is obviously a war ramping up over resources, even China is gearing up like never before to fight. I think that is what you are seeing when you think you are seeing the NWO, simply the elite ensuring that they are going to be covered if and when the crap hits the fan. I mean think about it, if we here on this site know some of the things we know, imagine how much more the US government or the Vatican knows about what is going on. You think that if things were going south they would let us in on the secret so we could all panic and interfere with them protecting themselves? Do you honestly think that they are the ones trying to do in the “little guy” out there, when without that “little guy” there is nothing to make them the “big” one? It would not be much fun to have all the wealth and power in the world if you were the only one on the planet, now would it? So the point of my little rant is that I don’t think that the government was overtly behind 911, and I think that the NWO is just a name we give something that really has no name and does not exist as a true organization. We are seeing the elite moving to protect themselves from something that is coming, and we interpret that as this shadow group of bad guys, while they simply look at it the same way you would in their shoes, smart business and survival. I also believe that there is a spiritual side to all of this, a war between good and evil, if you will, and we are all caught up in it, elite and common all the same. I believe that the evil side spiritually knows mans heart and desire, they know the results of mans actions, and the outcome they wish to achieve, they simply provide the opportunity. In the case of 911, the opportunity arose for the elite to help ensure their own survival (though they did not necessarily move mens hearts to provide that opportunity), by putting in place laws that will allow them to keep a massive, panic driven, population under control when need be. To them it seems like logic, and if roles were reversed you would feel that way as well. I am tired, and trying to explain something complex without getting too off topic into religion, so I hope that all made some sort of sense… [edit on 12/29/2005 by defcon5]

It's interesting that you point to China as the reason for the cuts on civil liberties. That's something I haven't considered but it would make sense if a conflict between the East and West broke out. I've always considered the cuts on civil liberties to be ultimately geared towards the upcoming natural disasters, in an attempt to better maintain control over the masses through it at all and afterwards, as traumatic as I would imagine it will be, or maybe even to maintain control while the US played bad guy for the rest of the world for whatever purpose. Really any upcoming catastrophe though could be responsible, I suppose, and that would certainly include a war with China. And imagine the role the Mid-East wars would play along those lines, in terms of both the oil and the establishment of long-term US military bases. Getting way off subject, but at least it relates in that 9/11 was the spark that got us into the Mid-East in the first place. Seems more like a subject for Skunk Works than the 757 thread, but oh well. An interesting idea anyway.

I do not think that China is the “reason” for cuts in Civil liberties. I think that they are another symptom of what is occurring. They are gearing up to make a land grab or a resource run, just like the rest of the countries, to ensure their elites survival during whatever disasters, natural and man made, occur in the near future. It should all come down to a battle between forces over the middle east oil reserves though, that is pretty well stated in prophecy. The battle is to include a 200 Million man army specifically, according to the prophets that wrote it, considering that there were less than 200 million men on the entire planet when written, that is somewhat telling. We really should take this to another thread though, before we get too far off topic, feel free to make one.

On the home page of ATS there is an article titled "The Pentagon 757 Conspiracy" which seems to be a response to a Flash presentation entitled "Pentagon Strike" which can be found at www.pentagonstrike.co.uk... The creator of that Flash presentation has recently made a response to the ATS article. The response entitled "Evidence That a Frozen Fish Didn't Impact the Pentagon on 9/11 - and Neither Did a Boeing 757" can be found at signs-of-the-times.org... Cheers Coffee Lover

The only thing that proves is that the truth told here is hitting these guys in the pocketbook. That is why we have another one of the website owners arguing in about 3 other threads here on the same topic. Didn't you notice that she is selling books on that site: [edit on 1/1/2006 by defcon5]

Your evidence is wrong. Go watch LOOSE CHANGE. The Axuial isnt from a RR engine.

The what isn't from an RR engine? And who says that this particular 757 was using RR engines? The 757s all have the options of using P&W, GE, OR RR engines. It's entirely up to the owner of the particular plane what engines they use on it.

Every commercial airliner flying about our friendly skies has luggage onboard. The Pentagon 9/11 crash site has remarkable little debris but there's definitely no luggage. OK, so some "muslim terrorist" off main st., Arabia who can barely fly a single engine airplane can execute superior maneuvers, without ANY prior practice, in a 757 and punch a neat little hole in one of the (if not the) most heavily secured buildings in the world. I suppose I can buy that explanation coming from the most expensive and expansive intelligence community in HISTORY. But no luggage at the crash site? Oh, BTW, just how do 19 dudes off the street cooperating with some nutcase in a cave 6000 miles away hoodwink every US intelligence agency anyway? If a commercial airliner crashed into the Pentagon, there would be luggage.

First of all, there were very few people on the plane. It was maybe half full IIRC, so there wouldn't have been all that much luggage. Secondly, seeing as how most of the plane ended up inside the building and the luggage is carried inside the fuselage, that ended up inside the building, then the luggage would have wound up inside the building. I don't remember seeing many, if ANY pics from inside the building showing anything, so how can you say without a doubt that there was no luggage on the plane.

Originally posted by CoffeeLover The creator of that Flash presentation has recently made a response to the ATS article. The response entitled "Evidence That a Frozen Fish Didn't Impact the Pentagon on 9/11 - and Neither Did a Boeing 757" can be found at signs-of-the-times.org...

Thanks CoffeeLover, that article seems to me as very professional and thorough try to directly debunk Catherder's claims on this thread. I highly recommend that article to everyone who is reading this thread. I would love to hear some comments on this from Catherder or Howard. Once again the link: Evidence That a Frozen Fish Didn't Impact the Pentagon on 9/11 and Neither Did a Boeing 757 Some quotes:

Small turbine engine outside is an APU This is simply not true. No one has come forward to confirm or deny that the disk seen in photos from outside the Pentagon could have come from a Global Hawk. Given the small size of the disk, it is likely that it did not come from a large 757 engine but rather a smaller-engined aircraft. Like a Global Hawk.

60+ bodies, matching the passenger list and flight crew roster identified and returned to families from Pentagon wreckage 60+ bodies were not identified. DNA from all of the passengers was identified, which is actually an interesting point. How can it be that the impact and fire were allegedly so intense that they shredded into tiny pieces and dinintegrated much of the plane, although not all of it, yet body parts from all passengers were recovered and identified?

Small turbine engine outside is an APU Indeed, it may well be an APU. But as noted previously, a Boeing spokesman has confirmed that the APU was NOT the APU from a 757.

Hey nutter, I and many experts in the field agree, after thoroughly studying the evidence, that a frozen fish did indeed damage the pentagon, the most prominent evidence being that everything surrounding the event smells a little fishy up to this day. C'mon, do you really believe it was a Boeing 757, piloted by arab boxcutter wielding hijackers? With that much gullibility filling your pea sized brain, I guess you also believe the US government was involved, and that without anything being in there for them. Santa wearing a red tinfoil hat too?

Originally posted by zer69 that article seems to me as very professional and thorough try to directly debunk Catherder's claims on this thread. I highly recommend that article to everyone who is reading this thread. I would love to hear some comments on this from Catherder or Howard. Once again the link: Evidence That a Frozen Fish Didn't Impact the Pentagon on 9/11 and Neither Did a Boeing 757

Why should I read through something that has been gone over and rehashed in the almost 125 pages of this thread? Furthermore, Why did the author of that choose to publish it outside of the ATS board? Is he/she a banned member? I hope that the author of that received permission to copy content from ATS. [edit on 3-1-2006 by HowardRoark]

Originally posted by Lumos Hey nutter, I and many experts in the field agree.

What experts? I would like to know what qualifies you as an expert in civil commercial aviation. Do not hand me some list of retired Military guys that have been out of the field, and even when they were never came closer to a 757 then to fly on one as a passenger.

defcon5

Lumos Hey nutter, I and many experts in the field agree, after thoroughly studying the evidence, that a frozen fish did indeed damage the pentagon, the most prominent evidence being that everything surrounding the event smells a little fishy up to this day.

What experts? I would like to know what qualifies you as an expert in civil commercial aviation.

Way to go. Maybe, just as a friendly suggestion, actually read the post you're attempting to discredit at least once. Those were no experts in civil or military aviation, but experts in cryogenic marine warfare! [edit on 3-1-2006 by Lumos]

Originally posted by HowardRoark Furthermore, Why did the author of that choose to publish it outside of the ATS board? Is he/she a banned member? I hope that the author of that received permission to copy content from ATS.

What on Earth has this to do with it? Here Howard will suggest the author is a banned member from ATS. He suggests it in the phrase of a question, and therefore needs not subject himself to having to offer evidence. So I guess the logic is, if it's a banned ATS member, it must be wrong information. Can you say non sequitur? I don't think it would be very healthy to hold ATS in quite that high of regards.

hey, howard and skeptic and springer.... is this how you want history to remember you(copyright aside)? one of the biggest 'mistake' people on line make, is thinking that they are talking to 'someone', when in fact, the web has turned the ideas themselves into the 'someone'. every single comment(online) is recorded in a virtual library, and is searchable through keywords and concepts. once it is translated from text into individual cognisance, it can be evolved by that particular 'brain cell' and regurgitated back into the (web) memepool. so, in other words, all the old school techniques of persuasion are no longer as effective. simply 'cutting the head off the snake' doesn't work when the snake has a million heads. physically, you can destroy a server, thereby burning that 'book', however, there may be a multitide of copies of the data that can reflourish at any moment. 'bookburning' is a new animal. it must be done by concensus, and even then, the 'book' can reconsitute from the ashes. as an aside, i find S.O.'s comment very intriguing. because HIS 'brother' was 'there' and 'saw' it, then we all should be ashamed for thinking differently. i would say, skeptic, is your skepticism one way, or do you recognise that people may be skeptical of YOU? this isn't an attack so much as an observation. please view it in that light. i'm personally undecided, and rather indifferent about your hopes and dreams, goals and motivations. i am only here for the platform, for which i thank you. [edit on 3-1-2006 by billybob]