9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

Originally posted by Zaphod58 Um, have you ever flown? The weight of an airplane makes a HUGE difference when you are manuvering.

No! Really? Ah, so your point is that a mediocre newbie, a totally inexperienced Arab, will have less difficulty pulling off that manuever in a 100 ton airliner instead of a 160 ton airliner. Logic dictates that the chances of him pulling that off are still 99.99% against him, whether the airliner is 200, 100, 50 or 20 tons. Are you saying that a commercial graduate, a totally inexperienced, mediocre commercial Arab graduate that failed the first time around, can maintain an airspeed of 500 while dropping almost 3,000 ft/min in an almost complete spiral, pull up a few feet off the ground and hit his target accurately seconds later with any airliner??? I bet he couldn't even do that maneuver with a learjet, never mind any airliner.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird Anyway, planes aren't people. Meaning all of them are basically built the same. Meaning there wouldn't be anything to distinguish on airplane from the other, so be more specific...

Gee, I dunno, seeing an AA 757 doing 460 right towards the Pentagon would be pretty distinguishable, wouldn't it?

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird And how about this, how about you provide any credible evidence that the hijacked plane didn't crash into the Pentagon and something else did.

Why do I have to prove anything? I'm not claiming anything, it is others, perhaps you who claim something.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird Was this an attempt at humor?

No, no. Depending on what type of plane you have, the possible scenarios change. So how could anyone answer "what happened to the plane" when we don't even know what type of plane it was to begin with?

Please see this exellent website from Russell Pickering with quite a lot of formerly unknown pictures and info about the Pentagon attack : www.pentagonresearch.com... There's a nice drawing of the last part of the flightpath on a Pentagon map and of the 320 degree descend of flight 77 to the helipad. And while you're at it, then also have a look at the very strange radar avoiding pattern of all 4 airplanes on 9/11 : www.the-movement.com... "They" cunningly exploited vulnerabilities in the radar that only the US Military and the FAA should have been aware of. Let's now address the timeframe these planes were flying in. And especially flight 77. If there were actually living pilots -physically- flying this plane, which option still is an empty book to be filled with possible scenario's, they must have been a bit reckless with the one chance in a lifetime to hit the Pentagon, to first take such a long sightseeing trip over hundreds of miles of eastcoast territory, then turning back the same distance, whilst pretty sure in a normal highjacking scenario now, that they were totally out of their timeframe to be reasonably sure to be able to pull it still off. The USAF and NAVY in normal alert mode, would have had kicked in the air, in the lost time, all material they could have sent up to confront them. They must have known from their meticulous planning for years, that Washington ought to be the one damn place which would be waiting for them, armed to the teeth. But who was waiting there? NOBODY... So, what's this lucky hyjacking pilot gonna do? Ofcourse, he's gonna take no more risks, and nose-dive into the main entrance roof of the Pentagon, you and me both suppose, having seen his flightpath map in the first link above. He just needed to push the stick down. Ehrr, NO. He decides to show off a bit, make a roundabout 320 degrees descent over all of Dulles Airport airspace at full speed, and tells his fellow muslemies, "W're gonna park'm in that garage just to the right of that helipad". And that were his famous last words, while gliding on his belly in the exact first floor of the just renovated and strengthened part of the Pentagon. Yeah, sure. Bollocks. Nazi Germany's minister of Propaganda, dr. Josef Goebbels, if he would have survived WWII, would have been racing around in his wheelchair as a maniac, in front of his telivision in his cel in Berlin Spandau prison, cackling and dribbling snot from pure adoration, realizing what some snotty youngster had pulled off in front of his eyes. The best ever propaganda and brainwash operation seen during his whole career since his own Reichstag fire and the Pearl Harbour deception by Roosevelt. How to kick an unwilling bunch of nitwits headfirst into a few profitable wars! He had ofcourse read every book in the library, and knew that the real target there in the Pentagon was ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence). The spooks who spied out and smarted out most of the time, the other spooks. That's why the remote controllers had to make that oh so long detour with flight 77, to wait for the moment that all ONI insiders were in that special room in the renovated part of the Pentagon. Ordered there, by Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Cheney through a chain of commands from the Joints Chiefs of Staff down, in a C-ring meeting with 30 top-level Pentagon analysts, investigators and generals who had just gathered to dissect the ongoing Trade Towers attack when flight 77 plowed through two outer rings and killed them all, including a lot of Army brass accountants, who also knew far too much of too many black budget operations which were gone, or went awry. Ever wondered why Cheney kept so long in hiding after 9/11 in his cosy bunker? He had to be sure that all future danger from revengeful, loyal to ONI, personnel was neutralized. Those special ONI databases had to be totally destroyed during those 3 new fake plane alarms, 2 on 9/11 after the impact, and 1 the next morning, when all rescuers were sent away from the plane impact site at the Pentagon. So his group of special "FBI agents" could find and destroy these ONI mainframes with blowtorches. Ever wondered how the Pentagon parking lots were emptied in 1 hour, while 180 people died and scores more were wounded, hundreds of ambulant Pentagon personnel were first responders to the scene, and their car keys were not available. Nice show of organizational planning. Anybody know if you had to leave your car keys at the parking boots? Then still, who's gonna sort out all those keys, after all the walking owners turned up and left with their cars. There must have been hundreds of cars left standing. The camera's. The Pentagon has a whole video surveillance room, where tapes are stored from all their 24/7 running surveillance videos. Two of the rooftop ones were destroyed by the impact, but ofcourse not the tapes which recorded the moments before impact. Aris, if you want to see them, file a complaint. I don't give you a shimmer of a chance as long as this administration deals the deck. And they play a foul pack of cards.

This thread is down right awesome. I have NEVER (even when I had my own conpirsy message board) seen a debate go so well. Kodo's everyone! Great job in keeping this tread together. I can see alot of thought and reaserch has gone into this event. Now, this is the kind of debate any administrator would be privledged to see. And BTW: I still hold to my theory that there was NO 757 that hit the pentagon that day. Sky

Ok kids, let's go over this again. On 9/11, there were a grand total of SEVEN Air National Guard bases with armed fighters ready to take off and intercept any planes that were entering the country without identifcation. That's FOURTEEN fighters that were armed, refueled and ready to take off. Andrews AFB Washington was NOT one of them. They were: The Air National Guard exclusively performs the air sovereignty mission in the continental United States, and those units fall under the control of the 1st Air Force based at Tyndall Air Force Base (AFB) in Panama City, Florida. The Air National Guard maintains seven alert sites with 14 fully armed fighters and pilots on call around the clock. Besides Tyndall AFB, alert birds also sit armed and ready at; Homestead Air Reserve Base (ARB), Homestead, Florida; Langley AFB, Hampton, Virginia; Otis Air National Guard (ANG), Falmouth, Massachusetts; Oregon ANG, Portland, Oregon; March ARB, Riverside, California; and Ellington ANG, Houston, Texas. www.the7thfire.com... There WERE other bases that were closer, however they don't have armed fighters sitting, waiting to intercept planes. On top of that, even to launch them unarmed would take over an hour. It takes 45 minutes to an hour, with engines running to align the navigation systems that are required for them to fly. As far as the "heavily defended Washington airspace", what defenses? The closest AFB with armed fighters is in Virginia. There are no fixed defenses in Washington, at the Pentagon, or the White House. There MIGHT be MANPADS Stingers around the White House, but a Stinger isn't going to do much against a 757 moving at 500 mph. Even if they hit it, the chances of stopping it aren't very good, unless they can hit it way out there and do a lot of damage to it. Contrary to popular opinion, a plane deviating off course was NOT enough to have it intercepted or shot down as some people claim. NORAD would not respond unless the FAA requested it, OR there was a plane entering the Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ), which is a couple hundred miles off the coast, without proper identification. THAT is the purpose of the alert fighter network. As far as the "sightseeing tour of the East Coast", if you don't know the area, you're going to need to find ways to identify where you are. From the air, that requires big obvious landmarks. [edit on 11/15/2005 by Zaphod58]

Aris: www.pentagonresearch.com..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/> You know what your right! 270 degrees in 3.5 miles, yeah, only a fighter plane with a Top Gun elite pilot could pull off a turn that tight!

www.pentagonresearch.com... The flight had 64 people on board, 6 crew and 58 passengers. A load of 58 passengers would leave about 3 out of four seats empty. The aircraft had on board approximately 36,200 lb (5,300 gal) of fuel at the time of impact.

While I cannot, nor do I care to, corroborate this information, the flight was pretty empty. Of course, it could have had some freight on it, but again, typically, that would maybe be 2K pounds or so, and that is estimating on the heavy side. 64 people onboard at 200 lbs each is 12800 lbs with 1.5 bags per person (airline average) is 96 bags, each weighing the airline average of 28 pounds per bag is 2688 pounds of passenger baggage. Therefore, you have about this for a load: 36200 lbs Fuel 2000 lbs Freight (guesstimate) 2688 lbs Baggage 12800 lbs passengers/crew So weight would be roughly 53688 lbs above empty weight, if there is no ballast on the plane. I also came across this from Boeings site. There is a lot of data here that is reliable. Please notice that under the section on, “Jet engine Wake and Noise and Wake Data”, what the jet blast cone is and how far out it extends at each throttle level Scope and Introduction: www.boeing.com... Airplane Description: www.boeing.com... Airplane Performance: www.boeing.com... Ground Maneuvering: www.boeing.com... Terminal Servicing: www.boeing.com... Jet engine Wake and Noise and Wake Data: www.boeing.com... Pavement Data www.boeing.com... Scaled 757 Drawings www.boeing.com... [edit on 11/15/2005 by defcon5]

And why would they fly right over the white house to hit the pentagoon? Wouldn't the white house have been a better target? Take out the US press (he wasn't there but would they know that?) would have been a middle eastern terrorists wet dream, no? But I guess the white house didn't have a section under repair gauranteeing minimal government employee casualities

Originally posted by Aris they will carry only as much fuel as necessary

Uh, hate to say this but *cough, cough* BS… Pilots love fuel. They love to have as much as the airlines will let them carry. They darn near always ask for more fuel before going anywhere. They love to run the APU’s at the gate unless the airlines jumps on them about it, and still make the ground crew put full service gear on the plane as well (which is redundant), especially the air conditioning (at least down here they do). I have never heard a pilot walk into flight ops and say, “that fuel load looks great, lets go with that”, its usually more like, “ I want a 2K uplift on the fuel, get a hold of the fueler please.” They figure that they will burn it at the gate with the APU, on the taxi way, in a hold, etc. So they love to get as much as they can get away with. Fuelers 9 times in 10 end up having to top off the wings, the center tank usually stays full all the time. [edit on 11/15/2005 by defcon5]

How do we know that Flight 93 wasn't heading for the White House? You don't change targets like that. They're going to stick to whatever target each flight was assigned to, and not change in the middle of the oeperation. [edit on 11/15/2005 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by ANOK And why would they fly right over the white house to hit the pentagoon? Wouldn't the white house have been a better target? Take out the US press (he wasn't there but would they know that?) would have been a middle eastern terrorists wet dream, no? But I guess the white house didn't have a section under repair gauranteeing minimal government employee casualities

You ever seen the Pentagon from the hill top at Arlington, and realize what a huge and easy to pick out structure it is? It is easy to identify from the air, and quite a large place, it defiantly has a unique shape that makes it easy to recognize as opposed to other structures in town. Another reason is that it should have wielded more casualties then the White House; it obviously holds many more high-ranking personnel. The more you guys talk the more I am convinced this was a guy flying VFR and using landmarks in town to find the largest easiest structure to do the most damage. [edit on 11/15/2005 by defcon5]

Originally posted by Zaphod58 How do we know that Flight 93 wasn't heading for the White House? You don't change targets like that. They're going to stick to whatever target each flight was assigned to, and not change in the middle of the oeperation.

Huh I don't get your point? Who said anything about changing targets? Why wasn't the white house a target as apposed to the pentagoon? It wasn't cause they couldn't get near it, they flew right over it. The white house as a target just makes more sense to me. But if you think about it, the pentagoon makes more sense IF it was planned by our own government, not by terrorists intent on destroying the U.S. government.

Yes i would say the same why crash the plane in the area where are less people and where the place is being renovated. No one answerd my question and maybe i am rong but i would like to get a answer. Why when the wings hit the pentagon nothing hapend, the wall should of come off since the wings had mounted on them 6 tons of titanium and it was traveling at 400 mph an hour. So it should make a hole , never the less where the wings had impacted near the engine nothing hapend.

Originally posted by defcon5 You ever seen the Pentagon from the hill top at Arlington, and realize what a huge and easy to pick out structure it is?

Yeah, it's not hard to miss is it? Infact far easier to see than the pentagoon is, and I would say FAR easier to hit with a plane. It just doesn't make sense to me. It's just too convenient for the U.S. government. Terrorists just happen to pick a low level building requiring dificult flight manouvers to hit, AND they pick the side under construction. How lucky and convenient for the gov eh? They get the effect they want (fear in the population) with minimal damage and clean up expense. IF they had hit the white house it would have been a serious mess with many casualties.

Originally posted by ANOK Yeah, it's not hard to miss is it? Infact far easier to see than the pentagoon is, and I would say FAR easier to hit with a plane.

Wait, you lost me.. Are you saying that the White House is bigger, easier to identify from the air and would have a higher population? I don’t think so. Ever been to DC?

Anok, Flight 93 never reached its target. We don't know if it was going for the White House. They had the operation planned out with each plane having a target. Even though Flight 77 went right over the White House, they wouldn't suddenly say "Oh look! That's the White House, lets hit it instead!" They would have continued to the Pentagon, and left the White House for Flight 93. Pepsi, no matter how heavy they are, you are NOT going to get a nice cartoon looking impact of the perfect shape of an airplane when it impacts. The wings are going to disintigrate and leave very little debris. Also, the renovations weren't obvious, as they were completed on the outside. And if you look at the Pentagon from the air, there is only one side they could have hit with no obstacles to block their path, and that's the one they hit. [edit on 11/16/2005 by Zaphod58]

Pepsi, no matter how heavy they are, you are NOT going to get a nice cartoon looking impact of the perfect shape of an airplane when it impacts. The wings are going to disintigrate and leave very little debris.

I dont agree with you because titanium does not desintegrate. The engines had 6 tons of titanium i dont expect a cartoon figure but i expect a very bad damaged wall where the engines hit. None of the walls where the engines hit has sustained damage, there is no indication that a 6 tons of titanium has hit there. [edit on 16-11-2005 by pepsi78]

Titanium? Are you KIDDING? The ONLY airplane EVER made out of titanium was the SR-71. Commercial airplanes are made out of ALUMINUM, with small portions of titanium and other metals. One of the engines impacted a very large generator, and exploded. The other one went through the wall. And they were NOT six tons of titanium. They MIGHT have been six tons of WEIGHT but that's not all titanium. There's very little titanium in an airplane. [edit on 11/16/2005 by Zaphod58] [edit on 11/16/2005 by Zaphod58]

The engines are made out of titanium and are mounted on the wings. It is the facts of a 757.

Ahhhh… pepsi78 A large bird can fod out an engine on a 757, and it can also pierce the skin in some areas with no problem. What do you think cement is going to do?

Originally posted by pepsi78 The engines are made out of titanium and are mounted on the wings. It is the facts of a 757.

No they are made out of Aircraft Aluminum, as Zaph said. To be more precise the housing is made out of a fiberglass type of composite. The leading edge is aircraft aluminum, the interior of the housing is also aluminum, the blades are made of a special composite metal that breaks if certain resistance is applied to it, the only parts that are titanium are at the aft of the engine and maybe some of the interior parts that are exposed to heat. You would have to ask a mechanic which ones though I cannot say for certain. [edit on 11/16/2005 by defcon5]

I think we are not being relevant here. On impact where the engines had impacted there is no damage to the walls. They are made out of titanium and should put a hole where the impact has ocur I will get back with details and with pictures.