Unemployed lady seeks legal advice over human rights issue.

Originally posted by sasquatch5100
reply to post by mandroids

 

Mandroid,

No one has a 'RIGHT' to a good job! If you have the right to have a good job then that means it is the 'OBLIGATION' of someone else to provide it for you. Who is OBLIGATED to you but yourself?

And what if the person 'OBLIGATED' to provide that job for you suddenly decides he's done being 'OBLIGATED' and whants to enjoy less responsibilities and exercise his 'RIGHT' to a good job? Then What?

Always good to point that out. Especially with the "right to healthcare" bit. Then who is obligated to provide it? Logic evades the entitlement crowd.

My deepest wish is for an automated socialist utopia. I realize most of you don't want that. I live within the confines of this economic system. I do so without complaint because I know it would do me no good. I play the game the way it's run and try to make things better for people as I can. Now, to actually ask for this system and then complain because it doesn't give you what you want...

How this thread has 15 pages is beyond me! This happens all the time in the uk and there is nothing anyone can do about it so what's the point in talking about it and going on and on and on?
She signed on and was fit for work, refused to work and benefit stopped. End of.
She cant pick and choose here, she could have stopped claiming instead of all this going on.
You hardly ever win with the Dss here, it's not impossible but very hard to.

reply to post by elouina


can't believe I have found a situation in which to say "cool story bro".



-TF

reply to post by mandroids


This story really hits home with me...

Here we have a woman who has spent years on education and training for a particular career and she is unable to get work in her chosen industry and wasted all years of effort to reach her desired level.

And is being forced to take work that a less educated person or school leaver could easily fill. (not meant to be discriminating here, but some people just don't desire higher educations or training and there is work that suits such people).

My story exactly....

After many years in the IT/Multi-media industry, which I never found very fulfilling and decided on a career change and started looking at other career options. Since I like the outdoors and wanted to do something valuable to the community I chose Land Management, planning to eventually move into fire management/fighting (something I consider to be a essential and rewarding path to take, working to protect the community. The pay is pretty good too..lol)

I spent years and years learning Conservation and Land Management and have extensive experience in the Natural Resource Management industry. I have Certifications in Chainsaws, crosscutting, intermediate Felling, Chemical Use. Medium Rigid driving, Tanker/Backpack/Rigs, Pumps, Induction and 1000's of hours on Commercial Clearing Saws, Pole Saws, Chainsaws, Mulchers and Chippers, 4x4 operation, Woody Weed and Tree removal, Track Maintenance, Fence construction, GPS mapping, GIS data Entry, Flora/Fauna ID, Erosion control techniques, Waterway restoration/maintenance, burning and traffic management, Senior Occupational 1st Aid LvL III.... "the list goes on"...

Can I get a job with the Department of Sustainability or Parks Victoria as a Ranger, Bio-diversity Officer, Field Services Officer or even a seasonal Firefighter...???

Nup..!!! Nada... Ziltch...!!!

The DSE Depot I applied to this fire season rejected my application about one week before the actual short listing was due to finish. I later found out through a friend that the same depot hires several younger people with no qualifications at all and spent 10,000's sending them off to obtain around 1/2 of the certifications I actually already possess..

Why can I not get a job with these departments..? Cause I'm in my mid 40's..!!! Not enough working years left to warrant them hiring me over 20 year olds (60% of which realize that Summer firefighting is not what it's cracked up to be and never return anyway for another season)... This coming from government agencies that claim equal oportunity..lol what a joke..!!

The worst part about it all... The fact that the type of work I want and am trained for dosent require a doctorate or Degree to do... NRM qualifications aren't really even needed for a manual labour type job like this, yet still I'm not good enough for them...

My advice to anyone who has a dream of becomming something.... Don't bother, they won't want you..!!!

Originally posted by mandroids
Let me make 2 valid points.

1, this work will not enhance her chances of finding the work she studied for. In fact, it’s an insult to a graduate.

2, would YOU enjoy being forced into work you knew would make you feel unhappy?

Isn’t that what ATS is all about…rights? Please refrain from tabloid ‘she gotta work’ posts.

No, I don't believe ATS is all about rights. It's about discussion, education, and the ever present "deny ignorance". Since it's members come from countries all over the world, not sure who's version of rights ATS would adhere to.

Concerning this person, I agree she should be free to accept or decline what ever job she wants. However, the public is under no obligation to help her in any way. She has a right, but that's not an entitlement. Two very different things. Entitlements are NOT rights.

Sometimes it's a shame when people's efforts are wasted by society at large... Put in all that effort to get a degree and for what? Pretty much anyone a child of a baby-boomer was told to get a college degree to get ahead, etc. But in most cases that seems to be a lie.

To my thinking, it's likely she having her own ethics get in the way. If she wanted to work with an oil company, it's likely geology isn't that bad a field to be in. Same thing for certain types of mining. But if you wanted to do research in things like vulcanism which aren't really profitable, or perhaps applying geology knowledge in an environmental/legal approach like finding evidence of damage to wells via fracking. (And on the environmental one, you're still more likely to get a CYA yes-man job assisting the rubber-stamp process than actively trying to shut-down mess makers. Speak up and you might not be kept for long.) Good luck getting anywhere without experience, when a given career choice has too many strings attached for getting started.

Ethics is likely the reason why I'm stuck doing a minimum wage job rather than something in line with what I went to school for. So in that regard, I can relate.

Originally posted by davespanners
Some of the replies here are a little misleading I feel.

The girl in question was NEVER offered paid work in poundland, she was made to leave one voluntary position (working in a museum) to go and work FOR FREE at poundland for 2 weeks in the run up to Christmas
She was told that she would then get an interview for an actual paid position there which never happened.

So she wasn't taken from a voluntary position in order to be given paid work, she was taken from a voluntary position in a job that was actually somewhat relevant to her career goal to work for free in another job that wasn't

I'm not sure when exactly the government started supplying unpaid labour to private companies.

That's exactly the case. She didn't refuse to take a job, as some of the previous posters have stated, but that she was forced to resign a voluntary positiom that enhanced her long-term career employability whilst looking for a paid job, to work as a 'mandatory volunteer' under the guise of skills training, and offering no transferrable skills or prospect of employment let alone interview at the end.

The employers who participate in the government's Work Programme schemes know full well they are getting free labour and as soon as one 'training placement' ends they get another batch of coerced labour to continue the process.

‘It’s a nonsense to suggest we should just be leaving them on benefits without making a real effort to find work. Retail offers really good career opportunities for many young people.’

Poundland said it had a ‘positive experience’ of the work placement programme which was ‘designed to provide on-the-job training for those looking to retail as a career opportunity’.

With the current news of half a dozen major retail chains going into administration with the estimated loss of between 30-40,000 jobs in the next 12 months, what value will working as a benefit-slave actually give?

Originally posted by pauljs75
Sometimes it's a shame when people's efforts are wasted by society at large... Put in all that effort to get a degree and for what? Pretty much anyone a child of a baby-boomer was told to get a college degree to get ahead, etc. But in most cases that seems to be a lie.

To my thinking, it's likely she having her own ethics get in the way. If she wanted to work with an oil company, it's likely geology isn't that bad a field to be in. Same thing for certain types of mining. But if you wanted to do research in things like vulcanism which aren't really profitable, or perhaps applying geology knowledge in an environmental/legal approach like finding evidence of damage to wells via fracking. (And on the environmental one, you're still more likely to get a CYA yes-man job assisting the rubber-stamp process than actively trying to shut-down mess makers. Speak up and you might not be kept for long.) Good luck getting anywhere without experience, when a given career choice has too many strings attached for getting started.

Ethics is likely the reason why I'm stuck doing a minimum wage job rather than something in line with what I went to school for. So in that regard, I can relate.

No.

Get the degree in what you love and live with the consequences or get a degree that you know you can get a job with. Now, if you choose #1, it's on you to make the living. The universe isn't committed to making you happy. The universe, like honey badger, doesn't give a $&*(.

So it's on you. Man up. Woman up. Whatever. Do what you need to do and quit whining about it. The one thing the world isn't short on is whiney people with their hands extended saying: "gimme! gimme! It's mine! I deserve it because I was born! gimme!"

EDIT: "fracking?" really? did you just pick that out of the local headlines? fracking is what you stick to. for the love of pete.

How about a degree in studying the stupidity of people seduced by the never-ending green movement that moves nothing and isn't even remotely green?

Me? I wanted a PhD in Astrophysics. Do you know how many people pay you to look at stars these days? Yeah. Sounds good. Pays nothing. So I do other things closely related to my field and yes... I still make a boatload of cash. Why? Because I'm not a moron.

2d Edit: it's what you know. But it's also who you know and your ability to un4ss your chair and connect within your field. Again: morons will fail. Natural selection is still lurking out there, and he's hungry.

Originally posted by americababy

Originally posted by blupblup

Originally posted by McGinty
I wonder how many great artists and academics who have enhanced society and our species over the years would never have done so if they had instead been forced to work mind numbing jobs because the masses wouldn't support them over the inevitable in-between stages of their worthy pursuits.

Well we always know that the Tories do not want people do better themselves....they have always tried to keep the gap between rich at poor at a huge distance.... they look after their own needs and never protect those in society who need it.

look at the people that their cuts have been targeted at.

Disabled
Pensioners/elderly
Single Parents
Charities
Inner city programs
Police
Teachers
The NHS
Students

Basically the poor, the vulnerable, public services and those who actually need help more than others.


Who doesn't feel the effects

Hmmmm

Bankers....
The rich....
Corporations....

edit on 13/1/12 by blupblup because: (no reason given)

That's a good quote you have.

Aww, gee thanks

Sorry 'bout that - only wish i could remember what i'd meant to reply

Originally posted by JiggyPotamus
I am sitting here shaking my head at the ignorance I am seeing. She feels entitled, she's stuck-up, etc. I am just going to assume NONE of you actually read the article and objectively pondered the case. Would you suck it up and go to work for NO paycheck?

In order to get my name out there and make a solid impression that could translate to a job later? Um... Yes? You actually asked that question?

Too bad this thread in particular was the one that gained the most posts. human nature,eh?

Originally posted by tangonine

Originally posted by JiggyPotamus
I am sitting here shaking my head at the ignorance I am seeing. She feels entitled, she's stuck-up, etc. I am just going to assume NONE of you actually read the article and objectively pondered the case. Would you suck it up and go to work for NO paycheck?

In order to get my name out there and make a solid impression that could translate to a job later? Um... Yes? You actually asked that question?

In my field, unpaid placements have been standard for as long as I'm aware. In fact many "employers"* in my field are starting to require (or at least seriously expect) an applicant to have had a week long unpaid placement with them prior to applying. Applicants are also generally expected to have had multiple placements with several different "employers" to demonstrate exposure.

After we qualified, hardly any of my colleagues claimed benefits because they could not honestly say they were available for work due to the placement requirements. We knew it going into the field, we exercised our right to choose and accepted the responsibility for our actions.

The woman in the story needs to get her head around the fact that life isn't always fair. She also now has a reputation for being a publicity- and sympathy-seeking whinger with a tendancy to stamp her feet and sue when people don't cave in to her tantrums. Who on earth would want to hire that lawsuit-waiting-to-happen?
_____
* I'm saying "employers" because we're not technically employed but it makes the point easier to understand.

Originally posted by Ironclad
reply to post by mandroids

 

This story really hits home with me...

Here we have a woman who has spent years on education and training for a particular career and she is unable to get work in her chosen industry and wasted all years of effort to reach her desired level.

And is being forced to take work that a less educated person or school leaver could easily fill. (not meant to be discriminating here, but some people just don't desire higher educations or training and there is work that suits such people).

My story exactly....

After many years in the IT/Multi-media industry, which I never found very fulfilling and decided on a career change and started looking at other career options. Since I like the outdoors and wanted to do something valuable to the community I chose Land Management, planning to eventually move into fire management/fighting (something I consider to be a essential and rewarding path to take, working to protect the community. The pay is pretty good too..lol)

I spent years and years learning Conservation and Land Management and have extensive experience in the Natural Resource Management industry. I have Certifications in Chainsaws, crosscutting, intermediate Felling, Chemical Use. Medium Rigid driving, Tanker/Backpack/Rigs, Pumps, Induction and 1000's of hours on Commercial Clearing Saws, Pole Saws, Chainsaws, Mulchers and Chippers, 4x4 operation, Woody Weed and Tree removal, Track Maintenance, Fence construction, GPS mapping, GIS data Entry, Flora/Fauna ID, Erosion control techniques, Waterway restoration/maintenance, burning and traffic management, Senior Occupational 1st Aid LvL III.... "the list goes on"...

Can I get a job with the Department of Sustainability or Parks Victoria as a Ranger, Bio-diversity Officer, Field Services Officer or even a seasonal Firefighter...???

Nup..!!! Nada... Ziltch...!!!

The DSE Depot I applied to this fire season rejected my application about one week before the actual short listing was due to finish. I later found out through a friend that the same depot hires several younger people with no qualifications at all and spent 10,000's sending them off to obtain around 1/2 of the certifications I actually already possess..

Why can I not get a job with these departments..? Cause I'm in my mid 40's..!!! Not enough working years left to warrant them hiring me over 20 year olds (60% of which realize that Summer firefighting is not what it's cracked up to be and never return anyway for another season)... This coming from government agencies that claim equal oportunity..lol what a joke..!!

The worst part about it all... The fact that the type of work I want and am trained for dosent require a doctorate or Degree to do... NRM qualifications aren't really even needed for a manual labour type job like this, yet still I'm not good enough for them...

My advice to anyone who has a dream of becomming something.... Don't bother, they won't want you..!!!

edit on 1/16/2012 by Ironclad because: (no reason given)

Great post. and good luck to you.

Originally posted by EvillerBob

Originally posted by tangonine

Originally posted by JiggyPotamus
I am sitting here shaking my head at the ignorance I am seeing. She feels entitled, she's stuck-up, etc. I am just going to assume NONE of you actually read the article and objectively pondered the case. Would you suck it up and go to work for NO paycheck?

In order to get my name out there and make a solid impression that could translate to a job later? Um... Yes? You actually asked that question?

In my field, unpaid placements have been standard for as long as I'm aware. In fact many "employers"* in my field are starting to require (or at least seriously expect) an applicant to have had a week long unpaid placement with them prior to applying. Applicants are also generally expected to have had multiple placements with several different "employers" to demonstrate exposure.

After we qualified, hardly any of my colleagues claimed benefits because they could not honestly say they were available for work due to the placement requirements. We knew it going into the field, we exercised our right to choose and accepted the responsibility for our actions.

The woman in the story needs to get her head around the fact that life isn't always fair. She also now has a reputation for being a publicity- and sympathy-seeking whinger with a tendancy to stamp her feet and sue when people don't cave in to her tantrums. Who on earth would want to hire that lawsuit-waiting-to-happen?
_____
* I'm saying "employers" because we're not technically employed but it makes the point easier to understand.

I get what you're saying and it's how the world works. It's how the wold has always worked. Prove yourself first, then get hired, not the other way around.

After 4 years of reading quietly on this site, this post has now made me mad enough to actually participate and give commentary.

For everybody saying Ms. Cait is a lazy slug who should be grateful to work at the UK version of dollar tree should all be taken out in the back and shot with the rest of the lot! What generation are you people truly living in? Do you realize that in this day and time, for Ms. Cait to take this position at Poundland means that she becomes less employable in her chosen field? This is the cold hard fact. For one to utilize their college degree in the field chosen, you must have all of your experience directed toward such an effort. What could she possibly do for Poundland within those ramnifications? Furthermore, since she wasn't going to be paid for either the Museum job or Poundland, the least the UK government could do was allow her to continue with the museum in her FIELD. Don't give me any crap about what type of job did she expect with geology. Geology studies the earth and plate tectonics and the evolution of fossils, carbon dating, craters, water supply, the cycle of life and all in between. Without geologists we would not know about the shorting of fossil fuels, or lack of oxygen in the water supply, or even be as far as we are with the cycles of the earth. All of you naysayers should be asking why the UK government is not investing in geology and giving this girl an opportunity to really be innovative in her field.

It pains me that we as a world, as I am across the ocean in the United States of Corporate America, are truly ripping the young people off for their right to a decent life. You take a crap job for work experience, yes, but when you have Underemployed, Unemployed, College Graduate, Elderly, and Teenagers all competing for the same job at Dollar Tree/PoundLand/whatever cheap corporation of your choice, you are going to get people that are going to resist being forced into a worker bee status, especially an expendible worker bee.

As the UK has definitely taken some pointers from the US on how to bring moral down and enslave its entire population with a mentality that can only be blamed with the response of too much flouride in the water, just remember - everybody has the RIGHT to be able to make a living. Yes we were born into a world that has been altered and no one person has access to their share of the land anymore, but we all deserve to live comfortably.

The fact of the matter is, as someone posted earlier, computers have outsourced us humans. Eventually computers will be able to handle every facet of our society without our input, down the road. In the meantime, let the people who went into debt for their degrees use them. Not everybody can do advanced sciences, and it is no easy job by any means. Support your citizen in your Commonwealth, and don't turn on her. The young need to KNOW they have a future, or they will follow TPTB plan and all become criminals, sanctioning even further slavery and driving the wages as low as they possibly can go.

We all have bills, we all have expenses. But this is taxation without representation. For everybody complaining about having to pay 1/3rd of their salary in taxes on "a lazy bum like her" do me a favor. Quit PAYING TAXES. Everybody stage a tax boycott and I guarantee that is Hope and Change you can believe in.

reply to post by quackers


Well thats a very slippery slope, i'm afraid. Benefits are not an indefinate fall-back - they are a short-term measure to bridge gaps in unemployment. If someone refuses work for reasons of personal choice, I can't see that they can continue to be eligible for the benefit.

In any case, if people will argue that this is 'unpaid labour' then they are acknowledging that the benefit payment is independent to the work and to worknig status and therefore is essentially a gesture of goodwill (as opposed to a substitute for income derived from employment).

Are there any updates on that lady's case?

reply to post by mandroids


None mandroids. It's like the MSM international is sweeping this one under the rug. I wouldn't be surprised if she takes it all the way to Parliament and wins, and then comes floating in the Thames in a "suicide".

Reminds me of a quote I heard from a SA friend. "During aparthied, our lawyers would defend the people and win, proving how unjust the system was. And as soon as they won, they would change the law."

This seems to be the case everywhere nowadays.