Still "Open Season" on Canada's First Nations people?

Originally posted by Aeons
I'm very annoyed at the tribal councils and their left wing defenders who are blinded by victimhood and romantic notations of the noble savage.
Left wingers and those who defend the corruption of the tribal councils often blather on about how they've been to the sweat lodge and gotten an eagle feather and so they "get" it.

Funny thing...in a thread dominated by stereotypical rhetoric, you are painting lefties with defending corruption and general delusion as to the issues at hand. Are you trying to reinforce stereotypes of the right?

Perhaps you get my point, perhaps not...depends how spot-on that stereotype is, eh?

reply to post by The Sword

That does not give the Canadian government (or any government for that matter) the right to treat them as second-class citizens.

What the hell are you talking about? If anything, the government treats the natives like first class citizens and then all the other minorities like second class citizens with caucasians being at the bottom of the heap.

The real problem is race based privileges. What we need is REAL equality. Everyone treated exactly the same, no advantages to any single group of people. That is the solution to the problem. Everyone needs to carry their own weight. NO freaking handouts to anyone.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


The only people who have solutions are the left. If anyone else tries to do anything, or ask anything they go into full melt down mode and slather about bigotry.

I'm sure there is bigotry. That they have some fails to dawn on them.

Is it a stereotype? Yes. Does it have a degree of truth to it? Yep.

But they can keep eating their cheese and washing it down with wine and telling everyone else that they don't care and don't get it the left does.

Most of the tribal councils are corrupt. Everyone knows it, and almost everyone pretends otherwise. This is defending corruption.

reply to post by Darkmask


the root of the problem is poverty at a high level. it ill push anyone of any race, to do these very things.

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle
reply to post by Darkmask

 

the root of the problem is poverty at a high level. it ill push anyone of any race, to do these very things.

I agree with what you say - A person is hungry they steal - A person is brainwashed by media into wanting material things - they loot - It is the duty of those in power to care for the need of those they supposedly represent - this obviously does not happen - Shame on them

Originally posted by Aeons
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

The only people who have solutions are the left. If anyone else tries to do anything, or ask anything they go into full melt down mode and slather about bigotry.

I'm sure there is bigotry. That they have some fails to dawn on them.

Is it a stereotype? Yes. Does it have a degree of truth to it? Yep.

But they can keep eating their cheese and washing it down with wine and telling everyone else that they don't care and don't get it the left does.

Most of the tribal councils are corrupt. Everyone knows it, and almost everyone pretends otherwise. This is defending corruption.

I'm a leftie...your characterisations are as offensive and nonsensical as "the lazy Indian."

And your solutions?

Originally posted by Darkmask
The real problem is race based privileges. What we need is REAL equality. Everyone treated exactly the same, no advantages to any single group of people. That is the solution to the problem. Everyone needs to carry their own weight. NO freaking handouts to anyone.

You do know, of course, that the law dictates that land was not to be seized from the FN, rather, attained by negotiated treaty. You should also know that in many cases, this was not done...so who's getting the handout?

And while I agree that everybody should be treated equally, that only works on a level playing field...which is not the case at hand. That needs to be equalised, and that is the challenge.

And I for one do not espouse spending more to do so...I believe in spending smarter.

I don't care if it is offensive. I find the problem offensive.

The "Noble savage" paradigm isn't actually not bigoted. I've been to the cheese-and-wine backpatting events - stereotypes exist for a reason. The conservative arrogance of Letting-In-The-Dredges attitude isn't better. Only you pretend yours is more noble.

My solution? Get rid of the tribal councils. They are feudal states that are regressive by nature. Being rid of them would be the first step towards a solution.

The next would be to get people who live in areas that are isolated to realize that they can't live in an isolated area and not do something to make it work on their own. It doesn't work, and it never will. There has to be a reason to be there.

These groups have been catapulted past the agrarian stage without any of the lessons of it. They don't have anything meaningful to do, and therefore any fixes put into these areas will always be nothing but short term fixes that will degrade no matter how great they are. No matter how well educated, how awesome the infrastructure, it won't work. Essentially you'll have people whose only thing to do is have babies, and the population increase will exacerbate the underlying problem.

Removal of "survival" as a primary motivator in daily life and replacing it with nothing is going to fail. No matter how awesome you think your bureaucracy is.


Oh, and as to how to deal with cops? There are bigoted cops. There are also reasons why cops who didn't start out that way start to develop it. Cops who are found to be in violation of proper behaviour should be publicly disciplined or fired.

Of course, Natives could help by...not shooting at them, or staying down when they are arrested, or not taking out a gun or knife to begin with, or during a domestic violence call the woman who is being beaten on not deciding that the cops are the enemy and trying to rip their faces off to protect the guy who was just beating the crap out of them. Or not letting their teenagers wander day and night in herds without any supervision or direction. These things are all in their own reach, and don't require any intervention from some governmental saviour.

Originally posted by mwuhi
They are not native, they are not aboriginal, they are not indigenous, they walked over from china. They were not here first. If they own the land as they say then they owe 100 years worth of back property taxes.

They should learn to behave themselves.

Exactly who was here before them? And where did they come from?

Originally posted by Aeons
I don't care if it is offensive. I find the problem offensive.

I, too, find the problem offensive. I also find many of the means and attitudes to address it offensive.

The "Noble savage" paradigm isn't actually not bigoted. I've been to the cheese-and-wine backpatting events - stereotypes exist for a reason. The conservative arrogance of Letting-In-The-Dredges attitude isn't better. Only you pretend yours is more noble.

The 'noble savage' paradigm is bunk. Folks is folks. I recommend improvements in health care, education and leadership...what's wrong with that?

My solution? Get rid of the tribal councils. They are feudal states that are regressive by nature. Being rid of them would be the first step towards a solution.

They are entitled to self governance...if you want that self-supported then allow them determination over the resources on their lands. As to corrupt councils, make them open to regulatory audits (and criminal charges if need be) as long as they are in receipt of public funds.

The next would be to get people who live in areas that are isolated to realize that they can't live in an isolated area and not do something to make it work on their own. It doesn't work, and it never will. There has to be a reason to be there.

I know...ship their kids off to residential schools...that works well.

These groups have been catapulted past the agrarian stage without any of the lessons of it. They don't have anything meaningful to do, and therefore any fixes put into these areas will always be nothing but short term fixes that will degrade no matter how great they are. No matter how well educated, how awesome the infrastructure, it won't work. Essentially you'll have people whose only thing to do is have babies, and the population increase will exacerbate the underlying problem.
Removal of "survival" as a primary motivator in daily life and replacing it with nothing is going to fail. No matter how awesome you think your bureaucracy is.

All you've done is reiterate the problems and provided 'solutions' a century old. How about something that might actually work? How about you head up to FN territory and have a chat with them about your 'solutions' and see what the response is?

Of course, Natives could help by...not shooting at them, or staying down when they are arrested, or not taking out a gun or knife to begin with, or during a domestic violence call the woman who is being beaten on not deciding that the cops are the enemy and trying to rip their faces off to protect the guy who was just beating the crap out of them. Or not letting their teenagers wander day and night in herds without any supervision or direction. These things are all in their own reach, and don't require any intervention from some governmental saviour.

Oh, and these are strictly Aboriginal problems. How about you look at other groups that have similar ones, and see what elsethey have in common.

The fact that solutions are rejected doesn't mean they aren't true.

So your solution is .... more of the same. Which is leading only to a population boom that is exacerbating the problems.

I grant that this likely will fix the problem eventually. By breaking everything so fundamentally that it blows up in the most horrendous fashion with lots of human casualities.

There isn't anything to do. Fundamentally you can't fix that on their behalf.

There are tribes that aren't failing and falling apart at the seams. They all have common features. Ones that the other tribes are rejecting.

In other groups that have been isolated, people have sent out members to become teachers and come home and do it. Same with other skills. Currently the people from outside the tribes that are being imported are lazy white guys. (oh that should sit well with people).

Originally posted by Aeons
The fact that solutions are rejected doesn't mean they aren't true.
So your solution is .... more of the same. Which is leading only to a population boom that is exacerbating the problems.
I grant that this likely will fix the problem eventually. By breaking everything so fundamentally that it blows up in the most horrendous fashion with lots of human casualities.
There isn't anything to do. Fundamentally you can't fix that on their behalf.

So, I take it that you recommend doing nothing. I don't think that's a quick fix.
Mind you, it's easier to carry on about a problem than go about trying to fix it, isn't it.

I outlined my solution. It is rejected for no reason. You're solution is to do more of the same, while ignoring why it keeps failing.

When it comes down to it, neither you nor I have any power to force people to fix something their leaders are protecting them from any fix. That applies worldwide.

Originally posted by Aeons
I outlined my solution. It is rejected for no reason. You're solution is to do more of the same, while ignoring why it keeps failing.

When it comes down to it, neither you nor I have any power to force people to fix something their leaders are protecting them from any fix. That applies worldwide.

Cultural segregation , there is your fix . Oil and water do not mix .

Originally posted by Aeons
I outlined my solution. It is rejected for no reason. You're solution is to do more of the same, while ignoring why it keeps failing.

When it comes down to it, neither you nor I have any power to force people to fix something their leaders are protecting them from any fix. That applies worldwide.

Actually...after I responded you did slide a solution into your previous post...that of educating members of the community and encouraging them to go back and educate more of their peers...addressing the issues of education that I had mentioned. Good for you, you're catching on. I also spoke of more scrutiny of tribal finances if they are in receipt of public funds. I guess you missed that. I spoke of not spending more, but spending smarter....that isn't doing nothing.

Right now...as in another window... I'm also doing a grant proposal that will help to link the local FN into a greater regional Cultural Heritage Tourism network, with potential economic spinoffs for all. You know...more of the same 'leftie' crap.

Don't let your anger get in the way of what's actually being laid out in front of you, eh?

Originally posted by watchdog8110
Cultural segregation , there is your fix . Oil and water do not mix .

You're kidding, right?

Worst case scenario I was pointing to . The two cultures worked fine for awhile during first contact but it snowballed into culture shocks from both sides .

Adopting the new arrivals way of doing things was hard to process for a lot and still is . Trying to hold onto the past is what the FN are struggling to keep while others see the glits and glamour of the big cities as enticing them out of their heritage ways .

Here take this placebo and all will be fine ?

Originally posted by watchdog8110
Worst case scenario I was pointing to . The two cultures worked fine for awhile during first contact but it snowballed into culture shocks from both sides .

Adopting the new arrivals way of doing things was hard to process for a lot and still is . Trying to hold onto the past is what the FN are struggling to keep while others see the glits and glamour of the big cities as enticing them out of their heritage ways .

Here take this placebo and all will be fine ?

edit on 9-1-2012 by watchdog8110 because: (no reason given)

Lot's of issues here...
When the Europeans arrived, it was about either exploiting the resources of the New World, saving souls, or both. Two totally different economic systems at play, and the natives consistently got overwhelmed.

The cultural thing is more than just being seduced off of the land and the reserve...it's also about generations of culture being denied and demeaned, leaving may spiritually rudderless. You're right...there's no magic pill, but a general attitude adjustment from the dominant culture is a serious start.

That's just it , the attitude of the dominate wanting to change a peoples way of thinking . Square peg in a round hole . Cultures die off slowly but surely . Do the FN really want to see more tourism than they all ready have shoved down their throats by the government as the only way they can adjust ?

Overload and to much to process . They like all the candy from the candy store and what do you get from eating to much candy ?

Wow, is all i have to say. This thread is speaking on a touching subject. (For me anyway, being FN)

We all will have our own say as to why these other 'tribes' act the way they do, and let their people do the things they do. But the fact is the problem starts with their own Community. Just like your white communities we all have problems. We all have people that act out, weather it be for attention, or just out of pure hate. the one thing i hate, is when other FN's people go on and on about how they stole(or tricked) our land. Thats the PAST, if you hang on to that burden you wont be able to progress in the future.

I have been reading every post of this thread since the start, Some people only see Reservations that have no organization, or pride. Does that mean you should think down upon us? NO. Just because there are Reserves out there with down right stupid people, does that mean there arent any with people who care, and who want to build better friendships with the white, black, (whatever other race) people.

Even if i couldve choosen where i was born, i wouldn't of picked a different place from my Reserve. We may not have the best people on our government right now, but we are still a healthy, growing community, who always wants to progress forward, instead of hanging on to the past.

All i am trying to point out, is just because you see some 'Crazy Indian savage' out doing stupid crap, doesnt mean you can stereotype my people for that one persons actions. We have the will, the resources, and the guidance to make something of ourselves, but not all of us live in a great community.

Dont judge a book by its cover.

reply to post by Anishnaabe


You may rest assured I don't. I look forward to the near future when we can move the idiots out of the way and start looking at how to address underlying causes that can be addressed.

One of the things that drew me to my husband is the Mohawk in him. There is plenty good there. I'd like it to thrive.

I'm beginning to firmly believe that the only way to get a level
playing field is to actually LEVEL the ENTIRE field (ie; Earth)