Helping members understand the physics of Space.

Hello ATS. Last night I was laying around with my dog, and I got to thinking about how many intelligent members are a part of this website. This website is full of broad perspectives on a cesspool of topics. That is why I find myself on this website while performing most of my daily routines (ie. work, cleaning the house, walks with the hound, etc.) rather than hanging out with people my age (21 years old). It's truly intimidating to be part of such a classy site. I began thinking of how I could step my game up of understanding certain things. That way when I want to start a thread it won't die before the first page is up. Anyway, on to the thread.

I ask ALL ATS members to join please with any input. Afterall, "No question is a dumb question". I find myself on most days not posting on the site, but more so intensely scanning the information presented by a lot of different opinions and views. I have been on this site for a year, and my family can already see the intelligence growing in me (Thanks to the members on this website). Space has always been such a surreal scenery to me. How I perceive it could/is different from how you perceive it (Much like anything in this world). So ATS I ask you, what "fun" facts per say would you tell someone that is new to the Astronomy/Space Exploration topics to better help them understand the grand picture or physics of space and even our own Earth?

- I myself have a few questions.-

1) When you look up at the stars, there are so many different of objects shining (I understand some are planets, some are stars). My question is how come most are a bright fluorescent white dots, and some are a bright orange?


2) In lamence terms can someone explain why we have seasons, the way our moon orbits us, and how the planets orbit the sun?

3)When you look up pictures of a Nebula is that how we would see it (With all the neon colors) or would it not be so glorified? Could we even look directly at one?


If anyone else has questions I would like to hear them, and maybe we can help eachother to understand things a little bit better. Thanks for reading and giving your input, It is very much appreciated.

ETA: If this topic needs to be moved I apologize.

reply to post by jeenyus2008


1) the distance the star is away from earth, the size of the star, and the chemical composition of the star will cause light to look different. this is based upon light frequencies, different frequencies have different qualities just like different radio frequencies can have different stations.

2) in lay man's terms, the seasons are caused by the earth being on a tilted axis, and the earth's elliptical orbit around the sun...it's not a perfect circular orbit. at any given time, the northern hemisphere might be slightly farther away from the sun than the southern hemisphere, thanks to the axial tilt. also, the earth gets closer and farther away from the sun certain times of years because of it's non-perfect circle orbit. it's more shaped like an oval.

3) the colors that show in pictures of nebulas are not real colors. they are colors that are assigned to different chemicals in the nebula, like oxygen might be assigned blue, nitrogen red, etc. this is digital computer magic to make them look pretty, and visually separate the different gases.

also, when we look through telescopes to nebulas, and stars and anything...we are effectively looking into the past of that object. since these objects are "light years" away, the picture that we see in telescopes is in actuality the light of the star that has traveled a great distance in space to reach earth. they are so far away that even at the speed of light, it takes BILLIONS of years for the light to reach earth. every star and celestial body we see is never in the present moment, always in it's past.

wikipedia can be VERY helpful when learning these things...

As for your first point, the angle which the star is to the earths athmosphere can also effect how we see it. That's what you get some stars that seem to turn colour, flashing from blue to red and so on.

The other points have pretty much just been covered in the post above mine.

reply to post by metalshredmetal


Thanks for the explanation . I knew some of that, but wasn't exactly sure. It seems like I read so much on this site that I only retain a certain amount of information a day.


"in lay man's terms, the seasons are caused by the earth being on a tilted axis, and the earth's elliptical orbit around the sun...it's not a perfect circular orbit. at any given time, the northern hemisphere might be slightly farther away from the sun than the southern hemisphere, thanks to the axial tilt. also, the earth gets closer and farther away from the sun certain times of years because of it's non-perfect circle orbit. it's more shaped like an oval."

**So the oval orbit is part of the reason its cold for a specific amount of time (winter, summer)..? The closer our orbit to the sun, the warmer the temps depending which side faces the sun on approach??

"the colors that show in pictures of nebulas are not real colors. they are colors that are assigned to different chemicals in the nebula, like oxygen might be assigned blue, nitrogen red, etc. this is digital computer magic to make them look pretty, and visually separate the different gases."

** Thanks, this explains a lot. I tend to forget what kinds of gases are out there aiding in expanding space.

reply to post by jeenyus2008


more or less, yes.

wikipedia "seasons"

During May, June and July, the northern hemisphere is exposed to more direct sunlight because the hemisphere faces the sun. The same is true of the southern hemisphere in November, December and January. It is the tilt of the Earth that causes the Sun to be higher in the sky during the summer months which increases the solar flux. However, due to seasonal lag, June, July and August are the hottest months in the northern hemisphere and December, January and February are the hottest months in the southern hemisphere.

reply to post by metalshredmetal


Thanks. This really helps put into perspective how we (Earth) are moving in relation to our Sun. By the way I understand a lot of information is out there for myself to find, but I've found it's easier for someone who knows and can explain into further detail to help different people understand differently. I hope this thread doesn't die, and helps the people on this website who are eager to understand/learn new things.

I encourage anyone with any questions to post them on this thread and hopefully all will be answered. I sure hope i'm not the only 'dummy' on here with questions.

reply to post by Acidtastic


yes, this is also very true.

light frequencies become distorted when they penetrate our atmosphere, which acts like a giant lens. depending on the angle of the ray of light with respect to the angle of penetration of the atmosphere, different phenomenon occur.

this is the reason sunsets are so colorful. when the sun's light hits the atmosphere at such an angle, the normal "white" light is separated into the reds, oranges, and purples that we see in sunsets and sunrises.

The earth is further away from the sun for northern hemisphere's summer, and closer for the northern hemisphere's winter. Opposite for the southern hemisphere. I don't believe that makes summers and winters more extreme in the southern hemisphere, but the south pole is colder than the north pole, probably due to altitude.

Here's one, we all have seen the moon in the daytime, like right now.

Nowhere on earth is it possible to see a full moon in the daytime. If so it is one of the rarest events in the sky. If I'm wrong and this link is a bunch of crap, I'm eager to hear an explanation of how and where on earth a full moon can be seen with the sun in the sky simultaneously.

reply to post by jeenyus2008


i understand, and i'm happy to help and point you in the direction of more information.

this video is very helpful when visualizing the solar system's movements.
little do most people realize that the sun is also moving...



this is the work of nassim haramein, very interesting fellow who does very interesting work..
notice the presence of spirals and vortex movement. very important ideas going on right now with regards to vortex motion.

also, if you are more interested in the physics of the solar system and prepared to have your mind blown, you can read a little book of coincidence by john martineau

the music of the spheres was never so literal until i read this book. very interesting, and will be the future of solar system study..

just marking for later

So ATS I ask you, what "fun" facts per say would you tell someone that is new to the Astronomy/Space Exploration topics to better help them understand the grand picture or physics of space and even our own Earth?

The elliptical orbits of the bodies of the solar system, are well modeled using Newtonian physics, some special cases more accurately with Einstein (Newtonian being considered a subset of Relativity now), but the fundamental question still remains.

How did the orbits originate in the first place.
For that we get answers that contain a lot of hand waving
like accretion, capture, cooling, big bank, etcetera, etcetera...

Isn't it interesting, though, that there are no orbital periods that are commensurate(Math™ ) with any other.
That they are all irrational(Math™ ) when compared to each other.
One would think that by pure chance, at least one orbital body would have a whole number relationship with at least one other orbital body.

But they don't.

The solar system has no common denominator.
What we have is the theory of gravity.
And this works great.

But so far it only works to define the predicted orbit and detect new bodies by the perturbations of that predicted orbit.

Using Archimedes method B with Egyptian recursive fractions it becomes possible
to analyze the relationships between the irrational numbers themselves.
And with such tools unexamined trends in the solar system become evident.

For instance:




Preliminary math
===========================

Orbital period / Rotation Period =

Take Luna
Orbital period = 27.32166 earth days
Rotation Period = 27.32166

27.32166 / 27.32166 = 1
===========================


How many bodies in our solar system have a 1:1 ratio of Orbital Period to Rotation Period?
This should be impossible, even once, considering that all orbits are elliptical.
The current theory is called Tidal Locking.
But people tend to only be aware of
our own Moon's tidal locking,
and the math looks good
in that one case.

But how many cases are there?

Well here is the list.

(7 Orbiting Jupiter)

Metis = 1
Adrastea = 1
Thebe = 1
Io = 1
Europa = 1
Ganymede = 1
Callisto = 1

(12 Orbiting Saturn)

Pan = 1
Atlas = 1
Prometheus = 1
Pandora = 1
Epimetheus = 1
Janus = 1
Mimas = 1
Enceladus = 1
Tethys = 1
Dione = 1
Rhea = 1
titan = 1

(7 Orbiting Neptune)

Naiad = 1
Thalassa = 1
Despina = 1
Galatea = 1
Larissa = 1
Proteus = 1
Triton = -1 (retrograde rotation)

(16 Orbiting Neptune)

Cordelia = 1
Ophelia = 1
Bianca = 1
Cressida = 1
Desdemona = 1
Juliet = 1
Portia = 1
Rosalind = 1
Cupid = 1
Perdita = 1
Belinda = 1
Puck = 1
Mab = 1
Miranda = 1
Ariel = 1
Umbriel = 1

(1 Orbiting Earth)

Luna = 1

(1 Orbiting Mars)

Phobos = 1

(1 Orbiting Pluto)

Charon = 1

(1 Orbiting Kalliope)

Linus = 1

case? = 46


There are 46 "moons" that always show the same face to the body they orbit.
. [color=gold] This is a major trend and fundamental property of our solar system.

Is so-called "tidal locking" sufficient to explain how this happens with eliptical orbits. Eliptical orbits should make the ratio of orbit to side facing the orbited body impossible. Are all of the moons at the same distance to mass ratio as all the others exhibiting so-called tidal locking?


David Grouchy

reply to post by Illustronic


Thanks for stopping in Illustronic! To me your opinion is taken at highest value. I will try to think of, without looking it up where we could see a full moon in the daylight. Ill let you know when I have a answer, if it is not answered yet.

reply to post by metalshredmetal


Wow, thats amazing. I will do more research into spirals and vortex movement

reply to post by davidgrouchy


Im always amazed at how much math/algorithms are involved in helping us determine things of unknown certainty (ie. Drake equation). apart from 'Tidal Locking" what other kinds of docking relations do moons have to their planetary body?

reply to post by davidgrouchy


David, would Mercury's 3:2 spin-orbit resonance with the sun be a round enough ratio out of chaos for you? Mercury rotates three times on its axis for every two orbits around the sun. The stability of this equilibrium state is well established. A year on Mercury is a day and a half on Mercury. Nature.

Maybe I don't quite understand what you are saying.

www.nature.com...

Originally posted by jeenyus2008

Im always amazed at how much math/algorithms are involved in helping us determine things of unknown certainty (ie. Drake equation). apart from 'Tidal Locking" what other kinds of Locking relations do moons have to their planetary body?

None that I'm aware of.
The strange thing is that this happens at all.

The fact that it dominates the majority of moons is just hard to ignore.
And I only mentioned "Tidal Locking" as it is the prevailing version of hand waving done these days, (the reigning theory) and I call B.S.


David Grouchy

Originally posted by Illustronic

David, would Mercury's 3:2 spin-orbit resonance with the sun be a round enough ratio out of chaos for you? Mercury rotates three times on its axis for every two orbits around the sun. The stability of this equilibrium state is well established. A year on Mercury is a day and a half on Mercury. Nature.

Maybe I don't quite understand what you are saying.

www.nature.com...

I'm saying that 1.5 days is not a whole number.


David Grouchy

reply to post by davidgrouchy


awesome, terrific addition.

you sound like you'd really enjoy the little book of coincidences that I linked in an earlier post. it's very much filled with these types of facts. although, they are presented in a way to highlight common denominators in the solar system. one of these being the golden ratio. because an earlier thread i posted in is synchronistically relevant to this thread, i'll re-quote another post from another thread, which is actually a quote from John Martineau's book:

Draw a circle, measure the perimeter to be 13 units in circumference. draw a perfect five pointed pentagram in that circle with each point touching the circle. using the same unit to measure the circle, the arms will then measure 12.364, the number of full moons in a year. An even more accurate way of doing this is to draw the second Pythagorean triangle, which just happens to be made of numerals 5, 12, and 13 again, interestingly also the numbers of the keyboard, and of Venus (page 26). Dividing the 5 side into its harmonic 2:3 gives a new length 12.369, the number of full moons in a year.

the moon seems to beckon to look further. we all know that six circles fit around one on a flat surface (giving the number six and seven). twelve spheres pack perfectly around one in our familiar three-dimensional space (our familiar 12 and 13). We seem to be moving up in sixes [when gaining a dimension]. Could eighteen time-spheres fit round one in a fourth dimension of time to give the numbers 18 & 19? incredibly, all of the current major time cycles of the sun-moon-earth system can be expressed as simple combinations of the numbers 18,.19, and the Golden Section.

the golden section is evident in the pentagram, the icosohedron, the dodecahedron, and all living things. the orvits of the four inner planets all display its presense. its values added to the magic number 18 produce 18, 18.618, 19, 19.618 and 20.618, which then multiply together as shown opposite. coincidence or biophysics?

18 years = the saros eclipse cycle
18.618 years = revolution of the moon nodes
19 years = the metonic cycle (if there is a full moon on your birthday this year, there will be another one on your birthday in 19 years.)
The time it takes for the sun to return to the same one of the moons nodes = "eclipse years" = 18.618 x 18.618 which is 18.618 days short of a solar year. there are 19 eclipse years in a saros.
12 full moons (lunar year) = 18.618 x 19 days
Our solar year = 18.618 x 19.618 days
13 full moons = 18.618 x 20.618 days. 13 full moons is another 18.619 days afoter the solar year.

reply to post by davidgrouchy


Forgive me for the spelling error. Thanks

Another very helpful site which enables you to learn at your own pace by watching a series of youtube video's is the Khan Academy specifically the Cosmology and Astronomy section in relation to this thread. I have personally learned a great deal from this and hope you find it as useful as i did.