The concept of hell and eternal damnation is a form of control.

I think Christianity adopted the idea of hell based on the comments made by Jesus regarding a "lake of fire and a bashing of teeth "

reply to post by miniatus

BRAVO! APPLAUSE!!!! WHISTLEY NOISES!!

(just from me, for what it's worth.)
Dude, wow, AWESOME that you posted this.
Thanks so much...would you care to insert it in my thread that starts "RFP"?

reply to post by Gorman91

Where's reincarnation in scripture?

click on the bold text:

Reincarnation in the Bible
Biblical inferences that are compatible with the concept of reincarnation.

Then do some real reading. And, btw, gorman, stop hating and thinking you "saved" someone by hating them and destroying their lives. It's bad. A bad thing to do. You sound irrational.

I happen to agree with you. There are consequences, but nothing is permanent and in this hellish world much would be mitigated. I think it was whoever they sent to Northern Africa, maybe Augustine, who liked hell much but it wasnt even a concept amongst early Christians or the Jews, a permanent place of suffering. And whoever has allowed them to LIE like that has changed God, has born false witness against God, including lying about reincarnation and everything else. All LIES are from evil. They corrupt God's Love and therefore anyone who has Love has to say NO NOT ON MY WATCH!

I won't allow people to bear false witness against Dad or Mom without speaking up.

www.godsplanforall.com...

Here in depth, gives some of the history.

For example, Plato (427-347 B.C.) discussed the concept of hell in his dialogue ‘Gorgias’ where he spoke of eternal punishments. There can be no doubt whatsoever that belief in eternal punishment in hell was a pagan belief embraced by Roman Catholicism in the very early years of the history of Christianity.

The Roman Catholic Latin Church Fathers, Tertullian (160-220 A.D.), Jerome (347-420 A.D.) and Augustine (354-430 A.D.), all strongly believed in the doctrine of hell. These early Latin Church Fathers are highly venerated Roman Catholic saints who believed that God’s punishment of unbelievers would be in a hell of everlasting torment.....

reply to post by wildtimes


None of these give evidence to reincarnation. But rather, predestination.

If you care to take the points an argue them, be my guess. Posting a link and saying it's the answer, when it is not, is not good enough.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Gorman91

 

You're just babbling now...

You prove nothing as far as i've seen...

This should not surprise you. Conventional/mainstream (Pauline) Christianity is highly distorted at best. Christian theology *is* usually based on fact, if you dig down far enough, but there are centuries worth of distortions, delusions, and other detritus on top, in layers closely resembling the fossil record. If you want to find the truth, you're going to have to pick up a shovel.

The other thing to realise is that the majority of Christians have no way of telling which elements of their belief system *are* demonstrably true, and which aren't. The main purpose of the fear of Hell, as far as social control is concerned, is also to create a sufficiently high level of fear within Christians that they can't apply critical thinking in order to figure it out, as well.

So yes, the average Christian is going to tell you that you absolutely ARE going to Hell, without fail, if you don't accept every single word of what they believe. Most of the time they're actually not being dishonest, either; what they are telling you, is what they believe themselves...and it scares them senseless.

reply to post by Gorman91


You asked for scripture that talked about reincarnation. I provided it.
I'm not interested in arguing with you, gorman.

But, since you're pressing the issue and judging me, well, I will repeat this one verse of "scripture" that is very widely quoted in this forum.

"You must be born again." Why is it so difficult to take that one at face value? Born again. As in, born. Again. Here on earth.

peace

reply to post by wildtimes


As in, born again during your life. Did you actually read the whole part? Or just the small snippet? Jesus never says you have to be born again after you die. He says you have to be born again in water. Baptism.

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Hell, it even goes ahead and makes a distinction from flesh and the spirit. IE, life.

Everything you have quoted, including the above about the wind, gives meaning to predestination. NOT reincarnation.

You can choose not to be born again.

Jesus was reborn when he was baptized.

If you are not interested in discussing it, then you're not proving anything. Waving a sign with words on it doesn't prove anything.

What's even more disgusting is that you assume I am judging you if I disagree. What the hell ind of ignorance is that?

reply to post by Gorman91

If you are not interested in discussing it, then you're not proving anything. Waving a sign with words on it doesn't prove anything.

What's even more disgusting is that you assume I am judging you if I disagree. What the hell ind of ignorance is that?

Ignorance, eh? If you want to know my thinking and explanations, click on the button that takes you to my posts, and read them. I'm not waving a sign. I'm stating what I believe. I'm not trying to prove anything, either, except that the Bible is misinterpreted every day, by millions of people. Who call me ignorant when I point out things that they don't like about it.

I'm tired right now, and was just semi-lurking, to see what the forum peeps were up to. You asked Akragon to show you scripture. Wait. No, you ORDERED Akragon to do that.
I did it instead.

Look at the gnostic books. Look at something besides your warped lens on the revised 80th edition of the Holy Bible. Read something else. Have an open mind. Explore. Learn. Search. THINK, for Christ's sake!

I'll discuss it until the cows come home, but not with people who call me ignorant and say my offerings are disgusting.

reply to post by wildtimes


Gnostic books contradict what Jesus said.

I just edite the post to show the full word.


Once again. Like I told Arky. If you don't wish to discuss it, admit you can't and leave. There's not reason to say you're right and everyone else is wrong and run away and embarrass yourself. And that is not an insult. That is forethought.

I ask for proof. Hell, show me quotes from the Gnostics then. Let me show you their contradictions.

It's a simple courtesy that if you wish to say something, someone ask for proof. And seeing as there is no proof of God, I will use what the scriptures say about God. If you wish to pick and choose, at least admit to the fact that picking and choose pretty much lets anyone interpret it from justifying genocide to reincarnation.

You want to say the Bible is flawed and use something else, then you have no way of knowing if Jesus' words were manipulated.

It is either all true, or all false. There is no in between. And if the gnostics do not match up with the Bible, then there is no such thing as truth, and nobody can claim fact.

reply to post by petrus4


I picked up my shovel. I don't really see these so called distortions. This word gets kicked around a lot, but not much proof to it is ever shown.


Oh, and with the fossil record, if something isn't the same, it is not that one is true and the other is false. Both are true for their time and place. And I really don't see why what we are discussing is any different.

reply to post by Gorman91

It is either all true, or all false. There is no in between. And if the gnostics do not match up with the Bible, then there is no such thing as truth, and nobody can claim fact.

CORRECT.

Okay, let's go.
Here's another link to scriptural references to the gnostics, the Essenes, if you will:
www.summitlighthouse.org...
and I'll even c/p some of it for you!

Jesus taught reincarnation, and it's also in the Old Testament. For example, the last words of the Old Testament in the Book of Malachi read: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." Here is God speaking through Malachi, a famous prophet quoted by presidents, and actually saying that Elijah is going to come again.

If that were not enough, we find Jesus making the same statement. In the eleventh chapter of the Book of Matthew Jesus says, "Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

And then he says, "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come," meaning his coming was prophesied. And so Jesus is saying, "He came. He was beheaded. They did with him what they would. And so they will do to me."

What we see in both the Old and New Testaments is that the statements concerning the coming again of Elijah are so naturally mentioned that one has to accept the fact that they are being spoken within the context of an already established understanding.

Malachi had the understanding of the coming again of the soul and therefore God could speak to him of the coming again of the prophet. The same with Jesus—he could give his disciples this instruction because they had a prior understanding of reincarnation.

reply to post by Gorman91


Here's another!

Many Christians have misconceptions about reincarnation. One particular misconception is that it means people don't inhabit heavenly realms between Earth lives. The misconception is that people reincarnate immediately after death. It ignorantly assumes people will never be permanent residents of heavenly realms. But near-death testimony reveals these misconceptions to be just that - misconceptions. People are free to spend an "eternity of eternities" in afterlife realms before reincarnating to Earth again. There is freedom of choice. This is because time, as we know it on Earth, does not exist in the afterlife realms as it does here. The ultimate purpose for reincarnation is for us to learn enough lessons and gain enough experience from Earth lives that reincarnation is no longer necessary. Like a graduation. Reincarnation is not the goal. Eternal life means never having to die anymore. That is the goal - overcoming death and rebirth. Reincarnation is the method and means to attain this goal. For more information on this visit my research conclusions on reincarnation.

A good understanding of reincarnation begins by understanding the ancient teachings on the subject and comparing them to what we know about NDEs. The following are teachings of the various ancient religions on reincarnation.

www.near-death.com...

Would you like to discuss? Or carry on your ranting?
I'm game. All over it, until I become to weary to help you any further for the evening.

reply to post by Gorman91

Gnostic books contradict what Jesus said.

Nope. Gnostic books CONTAIN what Jesus said.

Gnosticism (from gnostikos, "learned", from Greek: γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge) is a scholarly term for a set of religious beliefs and spiritual practices common to early Christianity,

en.wikipedia.org...

But wait! Here's some more from the prvious page on Reincarnation and the Bible:

The first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote about the Pharisees being believers in reincarnation. The Pharisees were the Jewish sect which Paul belonged to before his NDE and conversion to Christianity. Josephus wrote about the Pharisees' belief that the souls of evil men are punished after death. But the souls of good men are "removed into other bodies" and they will have "power to revive and live again."

From time to time throughout Jewish history, there was a persistent belief about dead prophets returning to life through reincarnation. But the Sadducees, a purist sect of Judaism, rejected the Persian concepts of resurrection and all Hellenistic influences involving reincarnation that was happening in Jesus' day. The Sadducees accepted only the orthodox Hebrew belief in Sheol. So there were a variety of influences going on in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus.

When Jesus began his ministry, many people wondered if he was the reincarnation of one of the prophets. Some people wondered the same thing concerning John the Baptist. And even Jesus affirmed to his disciples that John the Baptist was indeed the reincarnation of the prophet Elijah.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Gorman91

 

You asked for scripture that talked about reincarnation. I provided it.
I'm not interested in arguing with you, gorman.

A few other links that might help:-

www.essene.org...
www.thenazareneway.com... - Particularly of interest here are Clothed with the Sun, The Gospel of the Holy Twelve, and the Gospel of Paul.

The TL;DR version, however, is that Paul of Tarsus was an impostor, who first tried to destroy Jesus' spiritual community via the direct approach, and then when that failed, falsely claimed conversion and apostleship, and then set about spreading a theological model which was entirely of his own making, and contrary to that of Christ himself.

The Nag Hammedi library includes a fragmentary account of the excommunication of the "Spouter of Lies," from the community that was then headed by James, the brother of Jesus; also known as James the Just. Paul is not specifically named, but if you read Acts, and a couple of Luke's hints, the conclusion fits. It's also worth noting how different James' epistle is in content, from that of Paul; James emphasises the importance of works, whereas Paul says they don't matter.

I personally believe that Jesus Christ existed, and that he was probably the single most accomplished theurgic magician that the world has yet seen, at least that I know about. I believe the miracles happened; Hermeticism offers a mechanical model of how they could have been performed, which is entirely feasible in my view, although it did require very rigorous training. The Transfiguration is also essentially an invocation of the Middle Pillar ritual, but at a sufficient level of power that it manifested physical effects.

I do not claim to know for sure whether the resurrection occurred or not; but I *do* believe that if anyone was capable of it, it was Jesus. I also believe 100% in his moral philosophy, which is beautifully outlined in The Gospel of The Holy Twelve.

I most emphatically do NOT, however, believe in the concept that he was "the only Son of God," as in Thomas in particular, he specifically states to his disciples that he is ultimately no more special than they are, and that anything that he can do, they can potentially do also. The sonship theology was, I believe, developed by the Church as an element of social control; if the Church could convince Christians that Jesus' abilities were an element of an exclusive spiritual status which humanity did not have, then said humanity would not try to cultivate said abilities themselves, which might free them from the Church's power.

The vast majority of contemporary Christian theology is, to put it simply, rubbish; and this is particularly true of the area of eschatology. At its' core, buried under tons of distortions, deceptions, delusions, and nearly two millenia of attempted political control, there exists a true and spiritually legitimate religion, which has no fundamental conflicts with any other religious system on the face of the planet. The Nicene Bible, however, is in no way to be definitively trusted; most of the truly quality material which is consistent with what little the Bible *does* give us, is actually to be found outside of it.

The majority of conventional Christians, particularly in America, have neither the intelligence, the discipline, or the education to engage in genuine scholarship, and their theological interpretations are to be taken on that basis. If you want to claim a truly solid, harmonious and non-fanatical understanding of Christianity, understand that such will require literally years of study; and all false modesty aside, I have spent said years.

reply to post by wildtimes

Jesus taught reincarnation, and it's also in the Old Testament. For example, the last words of the Old Testament in the Book of Malachi read: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." Here is God speaking through Malachi, a famous prophet quoted by presidents, and actually saying that Elijah is going to come again.

That's in Revelations. When two prophets return and are killed. Enoch and Elijah are the obvious, as they are the only ones still alive to be able to return.

And then he says, "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come," meaning his coming was prophesied. And so Jesus is saying, "He came. He was beheaded. They did with him what they would. And so they will do to me."

How can he come and be born again if he is not dead? Elijah never died. And also, this is not the correct scripture. Jesus says "The Elijah".

The spirit is not the same as the soul. Jesus said that John the Baptist was The Elijah. And indeed, the spirit of Elijah. A spirit, based off what I know, is not the man, but the purpose of a man. The man is his soul. His purpose is the spirit God gives him. This is actually an ancient tradition going back to ancient Egypt. Egyptians separated the soul from the spirit.

Again, the translation itself is pretty perplexing. Here's a few.

and if ye are willing to receive [it], he is Elijah who was about to come;

Young's literal translation

11-14"Let me tell you what's going on here: No one in history surpasses John the Baptizer; but in the kingdom he prepared you for, the lowliest person is ahead of him. For a long time now people have tried to force themselves into God's kingdom. But if you read the books of the Prophets and God's Law closely, you will see them culminate in John, teaming up with him in preparing the way for the Messiah of the kingdom. Looked at in this way, John is the 'Elijah' you've all been expecting to arrive and introduce the Messiah.

Messages

14If you are willing to accept their message, John is the Elijah who was to come.

God's word

14 And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who [a]was to come.

Elijah's spirit was in John the Baptist. Not his soul. Elijah's soul is still wherever his body is. In heaven perhaps. It is never explained.

See how can Elijah reincarnate if he is still alive and never died? You have to die in order to be reincarnated. But Elijah isn't dead. His spirit, the purpose of his life, is relived in John the Baptist.


In revelations, Elijah returns. Not reincarnated. As himself, because he never died.

There are only two people in the entire Bible who have never died. And in Revelations, it seems very certainly that they return, only to die. because all men must die.

Revelation 11

reply to post by petrus4


Yes, James and the others were angry with Paul. it would make sense that they do not want him.


But then years went by. And Paul proved himself.


This is what is said. Judge them by their fruits.

Paul killed Stephen. a beloved brother of the community. And then he goes and claims to be part of that community. What would you do? I'd kick him the fook out is what I'd do. But what am I supposed to do when he suddenly does miracles and acts that only Christ himself could do? Well you admit you were wrong and accept his fruits as legitimate.


I also disagree that most people are not intelligent enough to get it. That was the argument the Catholic Church used to ban the bible in the people's language. And that was one of the reasons Luther was excommunicated. It's a very suspicious argument with hardly any basis for truth.

reply to post by petrus4

The majority of conventional Christians, particularly in America, have neither the intelligence, the discipline, or the education to engage in genuine scholarship, and their theological interpretations are to be taken on that basis. If you want to claim a truly solid, harmonious and non-fanatical understanding of Christianity, understand that such will require literally years of study; and all false modesty aside, I have spent said years.

Oh yes, I understand, and I, too, have spent said years.
Nice to meet you.

reply to post by Gorman91

See how can Elijah reincarnate if he is still alive and never died? You have to die in order to be reincarnated. But Elijah isn't dead. His spirit, the purpose of his life, is relived in John the Baptist.

sigh.

Yes, gorman, that is the point. No one said we die and come back as ourselves in this lifetime again. No. Reincarnation is the spirit, the soul, that comes back here, to earth, in a DIFFERENT body, to a DIFFERENT life, in which we experience DIFFERENT things to the ones we have previously experienced.

Elijah's spirit, the purpose of his life, is RELIVED in John the Baptist. His SPIRIT WAS BORN AGAIN.

Honestly, I just don't see what is so difficult to comprehend about this.
We dont' "come back" looking the same, or talking the same, or wearing the same clothes, or having the same car. We are born again, into a new incarnation, a new body, so that we can continue our soul's journey through the "school" of Divinity. We come back as someone else, someone new, with our spirits intact, but our experiences to be refreshed with others to enrich what our spirit, our soul, has learned previously.

And by the way, I have been baptized. When I was about a week old, they tell me.