Women Who Support Ron Paul: What About Your Reproductive Freedom?

Originally posted by followtheevidence
reply to post by Annee

 

All this talk about rights ...

What about the rights of the INNOCENT who are slaughtered at the hands of American imperialism/militarism/nation building/undeclared/unjust/pre-emptive RESOURCE wars?

What about THEIR rights?

Obama is undeniably pro-war, having illegally bombed more countries than Bush did. As IF Bush wasn't violent enough.

And then of course there are the other spurious GOP candidates who are all unapologetic warmongers.

But no, Ron Paul is the true culprit, invading our rights like that ... leaving the matter of abortion to the states and people.

AT LEAST be consistent in your little crusade for "rights"

Looks like mudslinging and wild inconsistency aren't just left to the candidates.

So - you want to go off on a rant that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

Ever watched the video: "Pale Blue Dot" by Sagan? www.youtube.com...

There are humans on this globe that barely hang on to life - - barely scrapping out enough to stay alive.

You ever heard of the Salt-Hauling Camel Trains of the Sahara? I doubt it. news.nationalgeographic.com...

How fortunate am I to have been born in a country that has material goods and wealth way beyond almost every other part of the world. Maybe its time we take it upon ourselves to downgrade what we consider need.

Do I like or support war? NO. Do I feel fortunate that bombs have not been dropped in America? YES.

We had a terrorist attack with strategic targets. It isn't just that people died - - it also threw our financial district into chaos. War destroys infrastructure. It often takes years to rebuild an economy. Countries on the European/Asian/African continent have been in wars for centuries. America being lucky enough to be an isolated continent has avoided the destruction and rebuilding - - - thus has been able to build a strong prosperous economy.

Now in the last decade or so we've been moving our manufacturing to other parts of the globe. We cry for our economic loss - - but do we also cheer for those in other parts of the globe who can now feed their families? I don't know about you - but I do. Am I willing to have less - so others around the world can have the basic needs of life. Yes I am.

What is this war we are fighting? Basically its taking out strong arm dictators. Do people die and does it create complete chaos - - destruction of economy and infrastructure? Absolutely. But it also creates a new path to build on.

Is my sight far reaching into the future? Yes it is. Is it worth it in the long run? Yes it is IMO.

I consider Ron Paul and those who support him Short Sighted - - with no real future to build.

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Am I naive? Absolutely not. I can do what I call "elevator thinking". Pretend you are in an elevator in a very tall building. Each floor is a different perspective. I can choose what perspective I want to view a subject - - by changing floors.

I am very aware of the NWO/Illuminati etc. How many people have had access to money - - used it to build something - - and hold onto their wealth? Not many really. Most people spend it or flitter it away. There is something to say for those who have the drive and ability to build an empire - continue building it - and continue to be in charge of it.

And no its not all family generational inherited power. Bill Gates did it himself in this lifetime. Everyone has the same opportunity.

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To me Ron Paul has "shut the door - protect yourself" dead end thinking.

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Now - - back on subject: No one is going to legislate my body - but me. And since I live in a state with Sheriff Joe Arpaio mentality - - - giving the state power to legislate my body is a real concern.

Some here have asked about the rights of the unborn. That is a good question and I'd like to address that before getting to Annee's post.

In a pregnant woman, there are two 'individuals' sharing one body. One individual is 100% dependent on the other, and, in fact, does pose a danger to her life. Whose rights prevail? We have the 'source', who we KNOW is a human being, a person, an individual citizen of the USA and therefore, deserving of all rights entitled, whether from God or enumerated in the US Constitution. We also have an 'individual', whose life status, personhood and citizenship are not actually KNOWN or clear to us.

Is this tiny life that is a potential human child entitled to the same rights as the person who carries, provides for, grows and bears it? Who knows? The best we can do is have an opinion on it. I would not choose an abortion, but It is my opinion that the rights of the woman are clearly infringed on by any 'rights' that might be granted to a fetus. Granting a fetus 'personhood' is one step toward removing the woman's singular rights to her own body.

reply to post by Annee

Originally posted by Annee
How fortunate am I to have been born in a country that has material goods and wealth way beyond almost every other part of the world. Maybe its time we take it upon ourselves to downgrade what we consider need.

Oh, I so wish we would downgrade our needs and simplify, as a country!

It often takes years to rebuild an economy.

And every indication is that is IS being rebuilt. A ship can't (and shouldn't) be turned around on a dime.

Am I willing to have less - so others around the world can have the basic needs of life. Yes I am.

I have to agree. The world has become very small with technology. Just because a physical distance, an imaginary line and a language and culture separate me from another human being, we are all one race, one people.

I can do what I call "elevator thinking". Pretend you are in an elevator in a very tall building. Each floor is a different perspective. I can choose what perspective I want to view a subject - - by changing floors.

I think of it as The Blind Men and the Elephant perspective. Sometimes there's a LOT more of what we CAN'T see than what we CAN see.

No one is going to legislate my body - but me. And since I live in a state with Sheriff Joe Arpaio mentality - - - giving the state power to legislate my body is a real concern.

Thanks to Pretorius, I think it's probably unlikely that Paul's Sanctity of Life Act will pass.

However, I'm uncomfortable with the mentality of a man who thinks like this ... He's not even considering the rights of the woman in his quest to outlaw abortion. Which I definitely think he wants to do.

If Ron Paul doesn't want to outlaw abortion, WHY does he try to get this POS passed every session? Why is he so all fired eager to grant a fetus a legal personhood????

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Some here have asked about the rights of the unborn. That is a good question and I'd like to address that before getting to Annee's post.

I want to address that too.

Most who claim abortion is murder do it from a religious belief (not all).

My belief is - - consciousness is energy - - not physical. Physical is just a biological host. Energy consciousness is eternal. You can not harm Energy Consciousness in any way.

I believe Energy Consciousness enters the physical body sometime after physical birth. Until then - - it is basically a parasite living off its physical host.

This is my belief and has been for a long time. I am not the only person who has this belief. Many people have this belief.

But I get attacked by the "God Believers" - - for my belief. I've been told its just an excuse to justify murder.

NO - - it truly is 100% my belief. It is not an excuse for anything.

I am not trying to push my belief on anyone. So don't push your personal belief on me.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

I think most people are the "right now me" thinkers - with short sight. My sight/vision is a lot further out there.

Thanks for responding to my post

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by jackieisinlove
So, I have been faced with that situation. And I'm still pro-life.

NO you weren't. Nature took its course and relieved you of making that decision.

I've been in that situation as well.

It isn't even close to facing the real fact of pregnancy.

Being raped and having a positive pregnancy test and thinking you're pregnant for a month actually does make you face the situation. I chose to maintain the pregnancy and was considering whether or not to give the baby up for adoption or keep it, thinking I was pregnant. So, had I been pregnant, I would have spent the remaining 7 or 8 months considering adoption. Abortion was not an option after I thought about it and did my research.

Additionally, I now have a child and that has further cemented my opinion. The fact that legal death is considered brain death and that brain waves have been seen in fetuses at just 8 weeks cements my opinion. The fact that babies can live outside of the womb WEEKS longer than the latest legal abortions can take place cements my opinion. Watching my baby trying to find his thumb, then successfully finding it, sucking it, then snuggling into my womb on an ultrasound cements my opinion.

"At eight weeks of life a tapping stimulus on the amniotic sac results in arm movements . . . the primitive brain receives the stimulus, selects a response and transmits the response as a signal to the arm." (M. Rosen, "Learning Before Birth," Harpers Magazine, April 1978)

REM (rapid eye movements), which are characteristic of active dream states, have been recorded 17 weeks after conception. (S. Levi, Brugman University of Brussels, American Medical Association News, February 1, 1983).

Babies being aborted respond to physical stimulus, have active brain function and even dream.

I find it really sickening that people think first about whether or not it's convenient for them -- rather than examining whether or not they're killing or supporting the killing of thinking, feeling, LIVING human beings!

Originally posted by jackieisinlove

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by jackieisinlove
So, I have been faced with that situation. And I'm still pro-life.

NO you weren't. Nature took its course and relieved you of making that decision.

I've been in that situation as well.

It isn't even close to facing the real fact of pregnancy.

Being raped and having a positive pregnancy test and thinking you're pregnant for a month actually does make you face the situation. I chose to maintain the pregnancy and was considering whether or not to give the baby up for adoption or keep it, thinking I was pregnant. So, had I been pregnant, I would have spent the remaining 7 or 8 months considering adoption. Abortion was not an option after I thought about it and did my research.
examining whether or not they're killing or supporting the killing of thinking, feeling,

That was your choice and your belief. Not mine. There is no way I want someone like you voting or legislating on my body.

Civil Equal Rights need to be National/Federal - - - and not initiated because of personal religious beliefs - - or any belief for that matter.

My first child was a 4 month miscarriage. My husband scooped the fetus out of the toilet and carried it to the hospital.

In the next few years I had 2 daughters.

My fourth pregnancy I aborted. The father was my husband. We were going through a divorce.

Later on in my life I was raped by a former boyfriend.

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How many that would choose to legislate my body - - have had the experiences I've had - - and through some self-righteous belief - - think they have the right to make decisions for my body?

Pretty pathetic if anyone honestly thinks they have that right.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by jackieisinlove

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by jackieisinlove
So, I have been faced with that situation. And I'm still pro-life.

NO you weren't. Nature took its course and relieved you of making that decision.

I've been in that situation as well.

It isn't even close to facing the real fact of pregnancy.

Being raped and having a positive pregnancy test and thinking you're pregnant for a month actually does make you face the situation. I chose to maintain the pregnancy and was considering whether or not to give the baby up for adoption or keep it, thinking I was pregnant. So, had I been pregnant, I would have spent the remaining 7 or 8 months considering adoption. Abortion was not an option after I thought about it and did my research.
examining whether or not they're killing or supporting the killing of thinking, feeling,

That was your choice and your belief. Not mine.

Right, just like it is the belief of some that raping women or murdering people is okay. In some cases, it's good when people's beliefs affect others -- when it comes to protecting innocent people and freedom. Only in this case, I'm not really concerned about the freedom of women to have sex, get pregnant and kill the baby because it's more convenient. I'm more concerned about saving the lives of unborn babies. In my mind, it is a fact that they are thinking, feeling, living babies. Babies in incubators can't survive outside of an incubator, and yet we do not think it's okay to kill them. It's the same thing. But even if someone's just on the fence about it -- even if it could just POTENTIALLY be killing a baby, wouldn't *any* sane person want to err on the side of caution?

There is no way I want someone like you voting or legislating on my body.

I have no interest in what you do to your body. I'm concerned about what you decide to do to the bodies of babies. Get tattoos on every inch of your body, cut your legs off, do whatever you want with your body.

Civil Equal Rights need to be National/Federal - - - and not initiated because of personal religious beliefs - - or any belief for that matter.

Everything starts with a belief. Most things start with the belief of what's right and wrong.

My first child was a 4 month miscarriage. My husband scooped the fetus out of the toilet and carried it to the hospital.

In the next few years I had 2 daughters.

My fourth pregnancy I aborted. The father was my husband. We were going through a divorce.

Later on in my life I was raped by a former boyfriend.

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How many that would choose to legislate my body - - have had the experiences I've had - - and through some self-righteous belief - - think they have the right to make decisions for my body?

Pretty pathetic if anyone honestly thinks they have that right.

You have been through a lot. Your personal experiences are important and I care about them. Just like you, though, I could list a whole bunch of horrifying circumstances that I've been through. And the thing is, although they matter, they have no bearing on this situation. My father sexually abused me growing up. Let's say I had gotten pregnant through that situation, proceeded with the pregnancy, had the baby, then regretted it. Would it be illegal for me to kill the baby? Yes. Would it matter that I'd been through something so terrible and wrong? No.

Personal experiences don't give people the right to murder other people. Scientific and medical facts point to unborn children having thoughts and physical sensation. Even if in some people's minds there isn't a clear answer as to whether or not their lives are as valid as those that have been born -- I do not understand why people would even want to risk it.

If there was a button you could push and you would get a million dollars, BUT... if you push it, a baby could die and you wouldn't know, would you push it? For any amount of money? The fact is that I wouldn't. I wouldn't want a million dollars or any amount of money if in getting it, I could be taking the life of an innocent child -- or anyone, for that matter. The sad fact is that a lot of people wouldn't care and would push the button because the money would be more important to them than the potential risk to the baby. That's what I feel this situation is -- only instead of a million dollars, what a woman gains is to not be inconvenienced by a baby.

Originally posted by jackieisinlove
Right, just like it is the belief of some that raping women or murdering people is okay.

Uh yeah - - - and which country would that be?

Let's not take this to extremism.

Originally posted by jackieisinlove
Personal experiences don't give people the right to murder other people. Scientific and medical facts point to unborn children having thoughts and physical sensation.

If you think abortion is murder - - that is your problem not mine.

I do not want you or anyone who thinks like you in my life - - or legislating my body.

You take care of your own - - leave mine to me.

Interesting, what Im getting here from the Patron siant of Consipiracy theorists Saint Ron is :

Illicit substances while pregnant, is ok....your civil liberty

RU486 while pregnant, noooooo way

Libertarianism for half the population 101.

reply to post by zazzafrazz


Wow! That is a great comparison! Thanks!

REAL freedom:

Illicit substances while pregnant? - your civil liberty - your choice - your consequences.
RU486 while pregnant? - your civil liberty - your choice - your consequences.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by jackieisinlove
Right, just like it is the belief of some that raping women or murdering people is okay.

Uh yeah - - - and which country would that be?

Let's not take this to extremism.

Um, murderers and rapists think their actions are okay on some level, obviously. I wasn't speaking of entire countries, although there are some that think stoning women for next to nothing is alright. My point is that some beliefs are wrong.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by jackieisinlove
Personal experiences don't give people the right to murder other people. Scientific and medical facts point to unborn children having thoughts and physical sensation.

If you think abortion is murder - - that is your problem not mine.

I do not want you or anyone who thinks like you in my life - - or legislating my body.

You take care of your own - - leave mine to me.

Again, I don't care what you do with your body. I want nothing to do with you or your body. I don't know how to make that any clearer. However, when there is even the potential that innocent babies are being slaughtered, who the hell would stand by and just watch that? ... I guess a lot of people. I suppose my illustration about the button made no impact. You'd probably just take the money.

This world is sickening.

Originally posted by jackieisinlove
Again, I don't care what you do with your body. I want nothing to do with you or your body. I don't know how to make that any clearer. However, when there is even the potential that innocent babies are being slaughtered, who the hell would stand by and just watch that? ... I guess a lot of people. I suppose my illustration about the button made no impact. You'd probably just take the money.

This world is sickening.

There you go again. You can't leave it alone. You can't just take your belief and leave those alone who don't share your belief.

You've definitely made the point of this thread.

Ron Paul can't claim to be for Constitutional rights for all - when, year after year, he tries to get legislation passed that REMOVES Constitutional protection for privacy rights. And he does this SPECIFICALLY to force women to bear unwanted children.

Pro-Life Alliance

National Pro-Life Alliance Executive Director Mary King strategizes with Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX) on the Sanctity of Life Act.

By removing all authority from the courts to rule on cases involving abortion, the Sanctity of Life Act of 2011 [H.R. 1096] would restore the authority of popularly elected officials to pass laws to limit or ban abortion without interference from unelected, activist pro-abortion judges.

And apparently without interference from the woman whose body they want to control...

Sadly, this judicial tyranny has caused many pro-life organizations to limit themselves to pressing for limited laws to slightly control abortion in the more outrageous cases, hoping not to offend the courts.

But by passing the Sanctity of Life Act, Congress can finally put an end to this judicial tyranny once and for all.

Ugh!

This is all assuming that the states would actually outlaw abortion ...

Yeahhhhhh ...

Proof?

Your body is not my problem/concern to any degree whatsoever.

I could care less about what you do with your body.

If you have no problem stopping a beating heart that you yourself created - FINE. It's not my job or right to tell you no.

It's also MY right NOT to subsidize your endeavor to stop beating hearts.

If you DON'T want anyone legislating your body, then WHY do women have abortions performed via Planned Parenthood which is funded a la PUBLIC TAXATION? Isn't that actually asking for people to be involved with your body? Isn't that asking for people to ENDORSE your heat-beat stopping agenda?

I would never seek to ban abortion - so please stop asking my dollars to sanction abortion.

Originally posted by followtheevidence
This is all assuming that the states would actually outlaw abortion ...

Yeahhhhhh ...

Proof?

In the 50s - - the Irish/Italian/Polish etc grouped in their community - - the Jews grouped together in their community - - the Christians grouped in their communities - - the Mexicans/Chinese/Japanese etc lived in group communities - - the Whites lived in their community - - the Blacks lived in their community - - the Gays lived in their community - - etc etc etc

Before the Fair Housing act these groups could legally prevent anyone they did not want into their community.

This is what is going to happen if States become their own little countries - - making their own laws.

Fundamentalist Christians are going to group together in their controlled states - - enacting religious laws - - and outlawing women's rights - - including right to one's own body.

This is going backwards. This is stupid.

reply to post by followtheevidence

Originally posted by followtheevidence
This is all assuming that the states would actually outlaw abortion ...

Yeah... That would never happen, would it?

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24 States Enacted 92 Abortion Restrictions in 2011
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Abortion Foes Push Fetal Heartbeat Bills in States

A nationwide coalition of anti-abortion groups said Wednesday it is preparing to push legislation in all 50 states

'Pro-Life' Measure Advancing in Several States Could BAN Some Couples From Conceiving Children

Ohio Heartbeat Bill

State ProLife Legislation in Michigan

Top 10 Most Pro-Life States

“These states have made great strides in protecting women and their children from the negative consequences of abortion.”
1. Michigan
2. Louisiana
3. Texas
4. South Dakota
5. Pennsylvania

So... do I think states will pass anti-abortion legislation. You bet yer ASS I do!