Why can't we accept that terrorists can have valid claims?

thank you twitchy for restoring my belief in intelligence.
the ideosy of some people is sufficient to drive one mad.
to actually see flycatch say that all muslims are barbarians, that is in their nature! I thought I was gonna choke on my chicken sandwich.
let me be another voice of reason in the aid of twitchy who tried to inlight this thread darkened by close-minded stupidity, and who took time out of his day to actually post some facts so other pistoff souls like me don�t have to.

I don't want to come across as being un-american, but the more I study our foriegn policy, and the more I look into things, the darker it seems to get. Too long has this country and its policies have been dictated by the corporate interests. The Industrial Revolution was indeed a revolution, the capitalists seized control of our government and cleverly concealed their power in such ridiculous concepts as the federal reserve system, lobbists, etc. The soverignty of the american people is a memory, the only power we have left now as a citizenry is the right to bear arms and the open exchange of information, that nessecitates the coporate control of the media which is used to lead su to believe that a soverign nation is a rogue state and a threat to us. I don't recall a single Iraqi involved in 9-11, I don't recall and Afghanistani nationals either, I do recall the taliban recieving millions from the US as we courted them to let UNOCAL build a pipline through their country, then when they backed out, presto, we invaded them adn installed a former consultant to UNOCAL as their new president. I do recall the Iran Iraq war in which we supplied both sides against each other, I recall Rumsfeld and Hussien shaking hands and being buddy buddy as we sold them chemical agents to use. Recent History folks, look up the 80's, try to remeber what created these terrorists, why,
WE DID. Here's a trivia question for you war hawks, Why do they call Geroge Bush sr. 'poppy' bush? You want to call the islamic word terrorists, that is fine but you better start studying up on our end cause when you do a little research, you will find that our policies are no better. We are a little more clandestine about it, but make no mistake, the coporate interests in this country are terrorists in their own right.
Why resort to terrorism when you can afford to pay others to do it for you.

[edit on 27-9-2004 by twitchy]

Notice that the reasons 9/11 was committed according to UBL video tapes was because of US presence in their Holy Land (Saudi Arabia).

Notice that the US has moved all air bases out of Saudi Arabia.

Someone's taking their claims seriously, despite blathering about their 'hating our freedoms' in the process.

Seems people are getting the words mixed up... thats OK the media WANT you to do that!

Terrorist does not ONLY include muslim paramilitaries, there are irish terrorists too you know! So there are more than just "infidel" claims to deal with here just take the irish example if you are having problems.

One thing about the points about terror targeting civilians, the armed forces have been targeting civilians since they came in range. Zeppelins bombing london... the bombing of dresden... V2 rockets... need i go on?
The idea that terrorists target civilians and the military don't IS JUST WRONG! Civilans are valid targets it seems, always have been always will be... sad but true.

Originally posted by kode
Terrorist claims are valid, it�s some of the methods they use to get their cause recognised, which are not.

Hello? The terrorists claim 'convert to Muslim or die'. That's valid?
Their methods of beheading women aid workers ... women who
go to Iraq to help the poor, the sick, the children ... 'slaughtering'
them (the term the terrorists themselves used) because they
aren't Muslim is valid?

Originally posted by taibunsuu
Notice that the reasons 9/11 was committed according to UBL video tapes was because of US presence in their Holy Land (Saudi Arabia).

Notice that the US has moved all air bases out of Saudi Arabia.

From what I understand, the purpose of those airbases was
primarily to enforce the 'No Fly Zone' in Iraq. Now that Iraq is
free of Saddam, there is no more 'No Fly Zone' and thus no need
to pay for the upkeep and security of an Air Force Base in the
middle of hostile territory.

Originally posted by sal88
I can't understand why there are so many assumptions of the aims of these terrorists, like "they want to spread an islamic theocracy across the world" and "kill all the infidels".

You'd have to be stupid if you tried to do that, expecially by blowing up buildings, come on get a grip, who in there right mind would try

You are right, they are stupid and not in their right mind.

It's not an assumption to say that the Muslim terrorists want people to convert or die. The Wahabbis themselves have said it over and over again.

'Convert or die'
www.persecution.org...

'Convert to Wahabbism or die Infidel Pigs'
www.thetriangle.org...

Qu'ran info
www.danielpipes.org...

From AP - 11/17/02
UBL's words - America must convert to Islam

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) - A statement attributed to al-Qaida threatened more attacks in New York and Washington unless America stops supporting Israel and converts to Islam, an Arab TV reporter who received the unsigned document said.

Yosri Fouda, correspondent for the satellite station Al-Jazeera, told The Associated Press on Saturday that he received the six-page document Wednesday. That was a day after the TV station broadcast an audiotape purportedly made by Osama bin Laden.

Fouda, who is known for good contacts within al-Qaida, would only say that the statement came from his sources with the group. But he insisted he was certain it came from the terrorist movement's leadership.

Fouda, speaking by telephone from London, said the statement called on Americans to stop supporting Israel and other governments that "oppress" Muslims or face more attacks. The statement also called on Americans to convert to Islam, he said.




[edit on 9/27/2004 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The terrorists claim 'convert to Muslim or die'. That's valid?

I feel you missed my post above, terrorists are not JUST MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS!

THERE ARE OTHER TERRORISTS! Like the IRA if you needed an example.

You are right, they are stupid and not in their right mind.

It's not an assumption to say that the Muslim terrorists want people to convert or die. The Wahabbis themselves have said it over and over again.

'Convert or die'
www.persecution.org...

'Convert to Wahabbism or die Infidel Pigs'
www.thetriangle.org...

Qu'ran info
www.danielpipes.org...

[edit on 9/27/2004 by FlyersFan]

Don't want to sound like i'm clutching at straws here, but those articles are just absurd, i find it quite difficult to believe that there is someone who actually has those beliefs. I mean, it just goes against the whole idea of Islam, that it is a person's relationship with God, what the hell is the point of thrusting that upon someone, they're hardly goin to have a relationship with God then. The Prophet Muhammad never used violence to spread Islam, surely they should know that. Further down the page of one of the sites there was loads of BS about islam is pure evil, the posts on that site are highly opinionated, no facts really, so i'm doubting the reliability of the site.

The triangle article is ridiculous, what kind of third worlder comes up with an organization "wahabbisim now for america"? Now either this article is genuine, in which case that guy should go back to pakistan or another country like Pakistan which is more Islamic than USA, yet far from actually being able to be called Islamic, so he can actually try and improve that country. Or someone else wrote the article as a means of propaganda. I'm not too sure to be honest.

Is there any chance you could get hold of a more "official", if you catch my drift, looking article? Like a site that people actually pay attention to.

Originally posted by Corinthas
I feel you missed my post above, terrorists are not JUST MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS! THERE ARE OTHER TERRORISTS! Like the IRA if you needed an example.

The IRA has valid complaints but their process of getting
their complaints brought to the worlds attention is completely
WRONG. (BTW - I'm Irish Catholic)

I listed the Muslim fundamentalists because that seems to be what
most people think of in terrorists because that is the one group that
causes most terrorism in the world and against Americans.

Originally posted by sal88
i find it quite difficult to believe that there is someone who actually has those beliefs. I mean, it just goes against the whole idea of Islam

The Prophet Muhammad never used violence to spread Islam, surely they should know that.

Is there any chance you could get hold of a more "official", if you catch my drift, looking article? Like a site that people actually pay attention to.

Yes, the Wahabbis and other Islamic Fundamentalists have ideas that
seem to go against what Islam stands for. However, those sects are
growing at a rapid (and rabid) rate. The problems that the article
'convert or die' said are real.

Muhammed never used violence? I don't know. I wasn't there to see
and his followers would of course sanitize history for future generations.

Here is something on WWMD (What Would Muhammed Do)
www.seanet.com...

'Official' article? Well .... I posted one from AP - using UBL's own
words that he insisted America convert to Muslim. I suppose I could
look around some more and get back to you on this. I know that
the archives at www.homelandsecurityus.com... have lots of
information and Wahabbi news releases that call for Americans to
convert or die.

Irish and R.C. here too btw. and for the record i do not and will not condone violence!
Even in retailliation... passive and peaceful resistance ONLY... big up Ghandi!

There are quite a few actions commited by the US that fall under my definition of terrorism so... the line here is very blurred.

Having said that if a terrorist with an even slightly valid claim attacks civilians and I then see a nation (like the US or UK) attacking civilians for some sort of monetary gain (the do, have done and will do so don't try to deny this claim) i consider that nation infinitely worse! At least the fundamentalists have some sort of ideology (misguided maybe, but at least they have one) whereas the corporate money grabbers that guide wester foreign policy don't have an ideology beyond the allmighty dollar...

Could anyone take an educated guess at how many of these "Fundamentalists" are crazy people who think that they can convert the whole world to Islam, and how many have reasonable aims (like the ones mentioned)?

Because it seems to me that if the media encourage the view that these terrorists want a global Islamic theocracy then there is absolutely no chance that anyone will ever look at the atrocities the Muslims have been through at the hands of countries like America and Israel.

[edit on 27-9-2004 by sal88]

Hav you seen what depleted uranium dust does to infants born in contaminated areas? It's horrible and a top level general was asked what we we're going to do to help them clean it up, he literally said we weren't going to. Depleted uranium has one hell of a long half life and Iraq is going to be contaiminated probably longer than our species is going to be around.

God bless America

Last I checked the Palastenians(sp) do not care if america or isreal converts to islam, they just do not want to be killed and have there land taken. They want to be let alone to live thier lives. And they are fighting a country where theoraticly(sp) speaking there are no civilian target. It's all military, including the civs.

Also, we must all not forget the holy wars started by the churches in midevil england (i might have the time frame wrong. I never knew too much abou that time). The only thing I ever knew about those times were that europeans went on holy wars to the middle east to convert them to christianity.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong about the holy war issue. Like I said I never had much knowledge about that time.

Originally posted by jmilici
Last I checked the Palastenians(sp) do not care if america or isreal
converts to islam, they just do not want to be killed and have there land
taken. They want to be let alone to live thier lives.

If they really just wanted to be left alone to live their lives, they
wouldn't be recruiting homicide bombers and going into the
soverign country of Israel - murdering pregnant women and
school children.

The Palestinian Authority wouldn't have as part of it's charter
the destruction of Israel.

Mass murdering terrorist Arafat (and rapist of boys) wouldn't be in
charge of the Palestinian Authority.

You are right, the Palestinians don't want to convert the USA
and Israel to Islam, they just want to skip straight to the killing part.

Palastine was a soverign country when Isreal was created in the 40's. They were soverign when Isreal invaded and stole thier land. I know 2 wrongs do no make a right and I am not disputing the arafat claims but you can't sidpute this. The problem is is that most people never knew that palestine was a real country pre isreal. Even with thier own soverignty. But since half the country is forced to live in refugee camps and the other half are living under isreal occupation those facts are very easily overlooked.

edit: added do not to do not make a right. oops

[edit on 27-9-2004 by jmilici]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by taibunsuu
Notice that the reasons 9/11 was committed according to UBL video tapes was because of US presence in their Holy Land (Saudi Arabia).

Notice that the US has moved all air bases out of Saudi Arabia.

From what I understand, the purpose of those airbases was
primarily to enforce the 'No Fly Zone' in Iraq. Now that Iraq is
free of Saddam, there is no more 'No Fly Zone' and thus no need
to pay for the upkeep and security of an Air Force Base in the
middle of hostile territory.

Yes, official explanation given. The bases were moved to Qatar with planes to put them in Iraq if possible.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
If they really just wanted to be left alone to live their lives, they
wouldn't be recruiting homicide bombers and going into the
soverign country of Israel - murdering pregnant women and
school children.The Palestinian Authority wouldn't have as part of it's charter the destruction of Israel.
Mass murdering terrorist Arafat (and rapist of boys) wouldn't be in
charge of the Palestinian Authority.
You are right, the Palestinians don't want to convert the USA
and Israel to Islam, they just want to skip straight to the killing part.

Give me a break, poor little Israel. All the palestinians want to do is murder kids and pregnant women... Israel would never stoop to such tactics, we all know what a saint Sharon is. You probably think Mossad is a charitible organization.