Noah and the great flood, unanswered questions

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
.... and if you thought i was attacking you i am sorry, i was not.

I said before in my last post. Yes to both questions.

Apology accepted. thanks

As far as the questions, you answered yes that Noah did exist and yes there was a flood.

But my OP contained the questions of

Was the flood global, or local?

How many animals were on the Ark?

(I just sort of find the diversity, and logic of the different answers interesting. Many different perspectives, and considerable thought and valid points behind them as well.)

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000


There was no condescension in my post.

I am rather surprised at this. Seeing as you call my writing "sh#t" and me a "deceived demon worshiper" and stuff, while I only worship ONE God, the only one, the true one, the Creator - the same one all prophets worship and I do not associate "partners" nor "sons" or "daughters" to him.

But hey, "by their fruits you shall know them" said the man once ...

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Cain was a tiller (planter of crops) and Abel was a shepherd (livestock domestication). Well what do you know? Science (Archeaology) and history states that farming and domestication appeared in the world about the same time.

So, the two sons of Adam and Eve were farmers and raised domestic livestock. That is what you say.
.....
remainder deleted as it is off topic, but now can be found on lonewolf's other thread:www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Now think back to after Adam and Eve fell, God killed an animal and clothed them in to cover their shame (nakedness). So what does that mean? It means that, not only was Adam and Eve naked before they fell but they were also gatherers that did not hunt. Well what do you know? Evolution says, that man originated as gatherers that ran around naked as they hadn't begun to hunt and make clothes to cover their nakedness.

So, shall we do hunting now? see www.abovetopsecret.com...
edited to delete and move to lonewolf's new thread.

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
.... and if you thought i was attacking you i am sorry, i was not.

I said before in my last post. Yes to both questions.

Apology accepted.

thanks

As far as the questions, you answered yes that Noah did exist and yes there was a flood.

But my OP contained the questions of

Was the flood global, or local?

How many animals were on the Ark?

(I just sort of find the diversity, and logic of the different answers interesting. Many different perspectives, and considerable thought and valid points behind them as well.)

Well between the Torah, and the Quran there's 2 conflicting stories. I default to the Torah (christians use the same book we call it Old Testament). I accept the Torah because it is the older book and the Israelites have a surprisingly accurate historical record. There is also the Enuma Elish in which part of the Torah is rooted in that is the book of Genesis itself.

According to the Old Testament the flood was worldwide and Noah loaded up 2 of each female both male and female.

Where the flood happened probably has alot to do with where the Nephilim spread to as the flood was sent to destroy them while Noah's family was saved because Noah was "pure in his generations" which was the ancients way of saying his DNA hadn't been tainted by the Fallen Ones (fallen angels/demons) that had been mating with human females for generations.

Many people make the mistake of thinking the anunnaki were good but they were evil and Lucifer was their leader. The Man Yah (possibily spelled EA or pronounced EYAH and note the similarity in tetragrammaton) created had nearly been driven to extinction by the bastard hybrid nephilim. What makes me think the Torah and the Enuma Elish are connected is they both mention Enoch and the Nephilim which could be a reason the Roman Catholic Church witheld the book of Enoch and Jasher from the christian bible and other gnostic texts they labeled Apocrypha.

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000


There was no condescension in my post.

I am rather surprised at this. Seeing as you call my writing "sh#t" and me a "deceived demon worshiper" and stuff, while I only worship ONE God, the only one, the true one, the Creator - the same one all prophets worship and I do not associate "partners" nor "sons" or "daughters" to him.

But hey, "by their fruits you shall know them" said the man once ...

edit on 1/1/2012 by sHuRuLuNi because: (no reason given)

Exactly, that goes 2 ways bro. Youre the one trying to dictate to me what scriptures mean what while you call the christian bible a book of lies and practically call me a liar. Yeah, i am not going to let you dictate to me anything. I will only listen to the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by vogon42

Was the flood global, or local?

Does any one recognize this ?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Okay.

So, this thread concerns Noah. What, then, do you make of the story of Noah's drunkenness (as recorded in the Bible)?

(vogon, please let me know if this is too far off-topic and I will delete)...
What's up with the biblical story of drunken Noah? (Part 1)

Dear Straight Dope:

Genesis 9:20-25 seems to be one of the strangest stories in the Bible. Noah lands the ark, plants a vineyard, gets drunk off its wine, lays around naked in his tent and is seen by his son Ham who reports it to his two brothers. Noah sobers up knowing what Ham did and curses his grandson Canaan who apparently was not even there. What is even stranger is when I started researching this mystery I discovered the story was once used to support slavery. Further there are theories floating around concerning castration and incest. What is the real story? Is there a deeper meaning to this than Noah having a case of misdirected anger while hung over? Or are we only hearing the watered-down version in our modern day Bible?

— Steve, Oak Park, Illinois

Yes, there are some strange stories in the Bible, no question about it. And there are those who happily twist the biblical stories to suit their own political ends. I'm going to split this into two different questions to be answered in two separate articles: First, the textual interpretation of the story itself, and second the history of how that the story has been used to "justify" slavery and the subjugation of black people in America.

And there's more!

The story itself:

After the Flood, Noah and family emerge from the Ark, the only humans to survive the great deluge. I'll use the traditional King James translation of Genesis 9:20-25, since that was the one read from pulpits in pre-Civil War America:

And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders and went backwards, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

What the hell is this all about? The prior verses were lofty poetry and grand promises following the Flood, and here we have a brief description of a very bizarre event. This story, like many other of the earliest stories, almost certainly had an oral tradition before it was written down, and that oral tradition is now lost to us (in fact, was probably lost before 600 BC). The initial audiences of the written version knew the story, and didn't need to have all the details. We're left with speculation and guesswork. (Note that we're engaged here in literary textual interpretation, not historical veracity.)

The only other person in Genesis to get drunk is Abraham's nephew Lot, who gets drunk after the destruction of Sodom--as with the Noah story, an incident with sexual overtones following a great disaster. Noah has witnessed dreadful catastrophe. Overwhelmed by the task of rebuilding a destroyed world, virtually alone and friendless in an almost empty world, perhaps he had some guilt that he survived when so many perished. So he got drunk and naked in the privacy of his tent. It's not what you expect of a great biblical hero, but it's a very human reaction.

Ham comes into the tent, sees his father drunk and naked and goes out to tell his two brothers. The two brothers come in backwards so as to cover their father without looking at him. Noah wakes up and curses, not Ham, but Ham's son Canaan.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by vogon42
.........

But my OP contained the questions of

Was the flood global, or local?
How many animals were on the Ark?

........
According to the Old Testament the flood was worldwide and Noah loaded up 2 of each female

both male and female.
.....

OK, so you believe the flood was global.
but I'm not sure about your answer as to the number of animals on the Ark.....(and your perspective of thee sex of the species appear to be a bit twisted.)

ATTENTION ALL....there is no Freudian slip on my part...... NO...I do NOT have any issue with those that are gay, I just fail to see how a (female/male) and a (female/female) can reproduce.

(clarification - I do have friends who are ....is gay ok....uh...of the alternative sexual preference. Generally one is the male perspective and the other is of the female perspective....I have no issue with that, I understand that. Its just that there genitalia are the same, which makes actual reproduction impossible)





but the actual unanswered question on the NUMBER of animals on the Ark.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Why? A straightforward reading of the text is that Ham saw his naked father, left him that way, and gossiped about it to his two brothers, ridiculing their father. Ham's sin is thus immodesty, lack of filial respect, and failure to take action to protect his father.

The problem with this plain reading is that the severity of Noah's reaction suggests that there is something more sordid going on than simply ridicule. But what? Speculation abounds. Again, most authorities think there was an oral tradition that was left out of the written text for reasons of delicacy.* There are two main areas of speculation:

*reasons of delicacy...for the benefit of whom? I would venture to say the people of the 17th c who were very sensitive to this sort of behavior, hence KJVB is translated into "delicate" terms
(same source as above....says that one should reconsider "plain reading" of the stories.)
Comments? Thoughts?

reply to post by vogon42


Was the flood global, or local?

Now read this.

This does show us the possibility of a global flood. Science has Gods back IMO.

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by vogon42
.........

But my OP contained the questions of

Was the flood global, or local?
How many animals were on the Ark?

........
According to the Old Testament the flood was worldwide and Noah loaded up 2 of each female

both male and female.
.....

OK, so you believe the flood was global.
but I'm not sure about your answer as to the number of animals on the Ark.....(and your perspective of thee sex of the species appear to be a bit twisted.)

ATTENTION ALL....there is no Freudian slip on my part...... NO...I do NOT have any issue with those that are gay, I just fail to see how female/male and female/female can reproduce.

Lol. You don't understand how male and female can reproduce? Well, there isn't really anything i can help you with there without linking something pornographic which would violate the T of C and be a little embarassing at the same time.

Supposedly there was a pair of each animal, one male and one female per species. The Torah says the world flooded. In order to understand what the world is you have to understand the context in which the word "world" is used. The "world" could have meant just what their (the ancients) limited understanding of the world was, which could have been a localized event if the only thing they new of the world was what they saw from Mesopotamia to the Pillars of Heracles and everything in between. There are indications however that they knew the world was round, the Sumerians knew the world was a sphere and they were shemites like the hebrew and neighbors. Abraham himself was a Sumerian, he came from the city of Ur in the land of the "chaldeas" which were the Chaldeans who lived in the same regions as the Sumerians and Ur was a sumerian city.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by vogon42

 

Was the flood global, or local?

Now read....

Actually randy....its just a yes or no question.

(thanks for injecting your thread....but thats not the point of this question)

summary of this thread

Flood - Global or Local??
How many animals on the Ark??

reply to post by randyvs


Well, randy (nice to see you again so quickly!), no, I have to say, I don't get the point of the pic.
*presses lips to one side*

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by vogon42

 

Was the flood global, or local?

Does any one recognize this ?

Hard to say what galaxy that is from the side but could be the milky way, all galaxies have a supermassive blackhole in the center that spews out radiation jets.

Here's a link you might find interesting concerning the book of Enoch and a massive blackhole that was used to imprison some really nasty fallen arch angels:

Enoch's vision of supermassive blackhole

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Why? A straightforward reading of the text is that Ham saw his naked father, left him that way, and gossiped about it to his two brothers, ridiculing their father. Ham's sin is thus immodesty, lack of filial respect, and failure to take action to protect his father.

The problem with this plain reading is that the severity of Noah's reaction suggests that there is something more sordid going on than simply ridicule. But what? Speculation abounds. Again, most authorities think there was an oral tradition that was left out of the written text for reasons of delicacy.* There are two main areas of speculation:

*reasons of delicacy...for the benefit of whom? I would venture to say the people of the 17th c who were very sensitive to this sort of behavior, hence KJVB is translated into "delicate" terms
(same source as above....says that one should reconsider "plain reading" of the stories.)
Comments? Thoughts?

edit on 1-1-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Thats wild speculation. The stories may have started off as oral traditions, but the ancients stories came from events that they witnessed with their own eyes and wanted to pass down through the generations which they also painted inside caves depicting the events.

It's so easy to discount what people who died long ago saw with their own eyes, yet they remain the silent witnesses to the events. I am not someone who totally dismisses what these ancients saw.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
........
According to the Old Testament the flood was worldwide and Noah loaded up 2 of each female

both male and female.
.....

you need to re-read your own words. You were the one who stated every animal was female (both male and female derivation of the female).....

I do not understand how
1) you can not read your own words
2) how you can be so judgmental, and hateful towards the gay population

How can you behave in this way? This is not at all what my understanding of god is (and I would bet, most others on this forum)

reply to post by wildtimes


Hey Wild, salutations.

You need to click the link and then read my short thread to get the full pic.

Vogon

If I'm off-topic here I'm sure the Mods will handle it. I don't see that you've pointed that out or that I'm even out of context in trying to answer your Q.

Lonewolf
If you click the link in my first post you here there are these large bodies of water even in our galaxy.

Side note the Anchors last name is Christian.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Lol. You don't understand how male and female can reproduce? Well, there isn't really anything i can help you with there without linking something pornographic which would violate the T of C and be a little embarassing at the same time.

Well, so, we're going with rude again?

Obviously vogon was referring to the "feminine-type" male and the "masculine-type" male. But, well, if you can't understand that (like I didn't understand what Young-earth creations were), um....

You're gonna condemn and LAUGH OUT LOUD at vogon?

Rude.
And non-informative.

(SORRY, MASQUA...MY BAD)
Back on topic:
The point is in this thread that the Creationists can't actually prove what they proclaim as truth except to refer to the Bible, which is NOT a primary source for information.

at least randyvs has a scientific offering for the possibility of a "global" event.
(and yeah, randy, I did look at your thread. VERY interesting!)
--wt

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
........
According to the Old Testament the flood was worldwide and Noah loaded up 2 of each female

both male and female.
.....

you need to re-read your own words. You were the one who stated every animal was female (both male and female derivation of the female).....

I do not understand how
1) you can not read your own words
2) how you can be so judgmental, and hateful towards the gay population

How can you behave in this way? This is not at all what my understanding of god is (and I would bet, most others on this forum)

Lol so i did, sorry you should have just ignored it. For some strange reason sometimes i type 2 of the same word and do not realize. My luck it's probably a precursor to some wierd neurological ailment i'm probably developing. My dad has parkinsons so who knows?