If 911 is viewed as a crime instead of a terrorist attack, it becomes clear...

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by CaptChaos

 

Adding 10 million square feet of office space to an island that already had plenty of empty office space....

Yes, because we are all aware of the legendary low price of real estate in Manhattan. Really, who do you think you're fooling with this crap?

>> Please don't prejudice yourself towards the 9/11 Truth movement because some people will claim ANYTHING.

The debate becomes one of minutia, and a debate about the least supportable nonsense. Only the MOST supportable facts, should be considered, and THEORIES like these, left on the side.

>> COULD some advanced prototype weapon have been used? You cannot PROVE one didn't -- but unfortunately, nobody can PROVE one did.

That's why I usually use the administration's info -- and inconsistencies. I look at the clear foot-dragging and obstruction of justice. I look at the destruction of Radar Tapes, the 3 Drills at NORAD, and the lack of video footage from the many confiscated around the Pentagon as EVIDENCE OF OBSTRUCTION. I cannot say of what.

Years from now, these Pentagon videos could show up and we might see an actual plane hitting the building. It won't resolve the MAIN issue of why the Bush administration did so little when they had so many warnings.

SURE, incompetence is clear regarding security for the Bush administration. They clearly were trying to do the OPPOSITE of what the Clinton-era policy wonks were trying to tell them to do. At best, the Bush administration were grade-school petty fools.

HOWEVER. Cheney's ONLY official act with regards to terrorism or the military, was pushing NORAD to run drills that concerned planes flying into buildings.

There were so many instances, where BushCo incompetence would not be revealed where EVIDENCE of terrorism SHOULD have been all they had to worry about. Independent investigators COULD have been given access to the steel supports of the WTC. The Pentagon COULD have been roped off in police tape and the FBI allowed to walk in. I'm sure that whatever sensitive documents were lying around, could be collected and shredded with no real risk to security.

I've never seen a WORSE security threat than the Bush administration -- regardless of 9/11. They also had the Patriot Act written before the disaster. They had a NeoCon website with MANY of the BushCo mover's and shakers called the "Project for a New American Century" that called for a "new Pearl Harbor event" to push the economy in the "right direction" and America into an imperialistic war footing to "push Democracy" or at least capitalism on third world countries.

Homeland Security was staffed at the top by cronies and morons. Some of it's funds ended up paying over a million for "Limo fees" which were actually used for Poker and Prostitutes at the Watergate Hotel -- and what was the CIA doing in that situation with so many politicians in a compromising situation?

When many of the core BushCo supporters, are enjoying a Brothel on C-Street -- you don't think that some foreign nation might know about that before our crappy Media?

Their "war on terror" investigations involved adding more needles to the haystack. They went from 19 known bad guys and a couple dozen al Qaeda leaders to a 100,000 people on a No-Fly list.


>> If anyone were actually TRYING to bankrupt our nation, make the world hate us, demoralize our troops, torture to create false confessions, and find a way to bring our country to it's knees without making everybody freak out -- I'd say the Bush administration was spectacularly successful.

They were either the most incompetent morons on the planet (like leaving weapons depots stocked with padlocks in Iraq for the insurgents to find), or they were the most organized 5th Columnists who were successfully made the Constitution "just a piece of paper" and put most of the pesky middle class well on the path towards NeoFeudalism.

>> In 2000, numerous states had well organized election fraud, and the Supreme Court intervened to stop vote counting in Florida, while more than 80,000 votes in a Democratic demographic were thrown out.

EVERYTHING that preceded and followed 9/11, is consistent with a well organized mob. They helped Big Finance (Goldman Sachs), Big War (Halliburton, GE, Carlysle, etc.) and they set up American Democracy and the economy to fail.

This country is STILL on the path to tyranny, and our economy won't be getting better if the 5th columnists are not brought to justice.

I'm sure that if anyone said the Reichstag fire were self-inflicted, they were called a fool and a conspiracy theorist as well.

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

HOWEVER. Cheney's ONLY official act with regards to terrorism or the military, was pushing NORAD to run drills that concerned planes flying into buildings.

You have some direct evidence of this claim? I've never heard this hybrid before. I've heard stuff about Cheyney, I've heard about NORAD and planes flying into buildings, but I guess you kind of just slapped them all together and topped it off with Cheyney's only act and pushing NORAD.

Originally posted by Kester

Originally posted by pshea38

Originally posted by Kester

Looks like they were getting blasted from all directions.

Or could it possibly be that there were no 'they' present to begin with?
Hmmm...
www.cluesforum.info...

This is one of the questions that will be answered when the debris on the Fresh Kills Landfill is properly examined. I can't remember what tonnage was buried unsorted, it was a considerable amount. The investigators didn't treat the debris as evidence, they searched among it for human remains, evidence and personal effects. An efficient investigation will treat the debris as evidence, studying the nature of this evidence to reach conclusions.
The investigators on Fresh Kills repeatedly asked for the conveyors carrying the debris to be slowed. They would be slowed for a while then speeded up again. This was not a thorough investigation. The fines, said to contain the missing human remains, were suddenly bulldozed over the rest of the debris. Was this to conceal the fact that there were no remains there or to conceal evidence of extraordinary demolition? I guess the debunkers will say it was just an oversight. Some oversight. wtcfamiliesforproperburial.

That's my MAIN concern with 9/11.

The government theory should be EASY to prove. If things happened as BushCo said it did, then welcoming in the FBI, real investigators, and more light would have been easy.

For instance, a plane that just flies straight into the ground because people were fighting with the terrorists -- sure, sounds understandable. Should be an open and shut case. But why then is there an engine from the plane over a mile away? How the Hell does a plane "break up" in mid air from bad flying?

It's not JUST the free-fall collapse, or the disintegrating plane, or the missing radar tapes -- it's EVERYTHING STINKS. It isn't that I WANTED to entertain Conspiracy Theories, it's that everything had restricted access, and then you find that nothing adds up.

I can understand BushCo's nervousness because of all the PRIOR WARNINGS -- and BushCo were horrible administrators so that Cover Up might be a natural inclination -- but it doesn't SUPPORT the 9/11 Cover ups which brought MORE scrutiny and criticism.

You know; 19 terrorists take over planes, fly them into buildings? Just let the FBI investigate -- there is no possible way that they would find any connection with the Bush administration. The Clinton administration handed over the first WTC bombing to the FBI and it was resolved, bad guys caught, without much more than 3 dozen people who thought Ruby Ridge was a conspiracy all that upset.

We've got Opportunity (who else could make NORAD dysfunctional or keep the FBI from investigating?), Suspicious Activity, Prior Criminal Acts (for both Bush and Cheney). What's left to make the Bush administration suspect #1? Motivation...

And I think their motive was to bankrupt us, and get us involved in resource wars while changing the law to turn our country into a police state. The Bush family has a history of supporting fascists, and making bank on war. It was clear to me that the 2008 bank crisis was EXPECTED. The Bankruptcy Reform act made it nearly impossible for the poor or middle class to get out of obligations but EASIER for the wealthy. Before the collapse, Negroponte was visiting financial banks and allowing them to "increase their leverage" based on the Patriot Act.

Most of Bush's and even Obama's big legal moves have been towards a police state. If the "Corporations are people and Money is speech" ruling by our Supreme Court wasn't a wake-up call, then the NDAA should be; LINK

But the NDAA doesn't "Change any rules pertaining to American citizens..." -- so, you MIGHT think that it's sort of OK and there is nothing to be alarmed about.

But when you BOIL THE FROG, you turn up the heat slowly. On the wake of the NDAA is this; 10/12/2011--Introduced. Enemy Expatriation Act

So, if you get in the way; the Military can DECLARE you an Enemy Combatant -- or Supporter, or someone they don't like. This triggers the instant; "no longer a citizen" act.

This meshes nicely with the Patriot Act because they got to spy on you and don't need a reason to collect evidence that justifies you losing citizenship. Due to state secrets laws once you are declared an enemy, no evidence is shown. Since you are detained there is no trial.

No actual CITIZEN is harmed so the NDAA (or enabling act), can then indefinitely detain you until hostilities end -- which with the WOT is two weeks after NEVER.

After WW II, the Reichstag fire was merely a footnote, lost in the wars, the camps, the "legal" police state. 9/11 is pretty much thing for me. The excuse.

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst


I think I understand the source of so much of your vitrol - you are deeply invested in your very own set of facts. A engine a mile away? Mid air break up? Maybe if you stuck to the facts, rather than making up your own conspiracy friendly reality, you would feel a less anxious about the whole situation.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

 

HOWEVER. Cheney's ONLY official act with regards to terrorism or the military, was pushing NORAD to run drills that concerned planes flying into buildings.

You have some direct evidence of this claim? I've never heard this hybrid before. I've heard stuff about Cheyney, I've heard about NORAD and planes flying into buildings, but I guess you kind of just slapped them all together and topped it off with Cheyney's only act and pushing NORAD.

,
Cheney had VERY LIMITED interest or activity in anything regarding terrorism or security prior to 9/11. There is INDIRECT evidence for Cheney's involvement but no direct smoking gun. Obviously, no home Videos of Bush, Cheney, Abramoff and some people in South Florida smoking cigars and feeling very clever as they said; "Wow, let's just dust off Operation Northwoods..."

It's really, really hard to PROVE anything when the perpetrators were in charge of security and the investigation after the fact. Oh, and immediately going to a "time of war" and calling everyone who questioned them a traitor.

But here is SOME STUFF if you are interested.

>> I'm not sure about "peak oil" but Bush certainly gave the oil companies a big wet kiss when he filled the Strategic Reserves when oil prices were their highest.


>> Look, 9/11 is only important to me as a wake-up for HOW we are manipulated. The Vietnam and North Korean "conflicts" were started based on False Flag events -- to which the Pentagon has now admitted -- now that the media is bored and I guess nobody cares.

Bush destroyed our economy and made some Billionaires even richer. They scared a bunch of self-serving politicos into signing the Patriot Act. Everything that has happened SINCE 9/11 seems like it is designed to make corporations more powerful, to make it HARDER to shed some light on our government or their security services, and to make it more difficult to be a hard-working American.

Occupy Wall Street seems the only real blowback from Americans in the face of STAGGERING corruption -- other than the protests for the Iraq war -- there has been no DOWNSIDE for the Bush crime family, nor their supporters like the Koch brothers.


>> I look at the kind of people who would start wars based on lies to steal resources as the worst of the worst. I look at people who have no respect for what made America great or our Constitution -- they've been demonstrably against it at every turn. I look at people who can make people miserable, and want to control their lives and I figure; "What wouldn't they do?"

What our nation did to Latin Americans during the Reagan administration -- they are no doing to us during the Bush and Obama administrations.

>> You don't have to believe me -- and you might be better off because of that choice, but then, in another 20 years, you might look back when the USA is like Honduras and wonder if you didn't see it coming.

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

....North Korean "conflicts" were started based on False Flag events

The Korean war was started when a division of North Koreans stormed over the 38th in 1950. Nothing false flag about it. Real soldiers, real guns. This is what I mean about your own little set of facts.

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

Look, 9/11 is only important to me as a wake-up for HOW we are manipulated. The Vietnam and North Korean "conflicts" were started based on False Flag events -- to which the Pentagon has now admitted -- now that the media is bored and I guess nobody cares.

Maybe should ditch the political paranoia and stick to the facts

The 38th Parallel increasingly became a political border between the two Koreas. Although reunification negotiations continued in the months preceding the war, tension intensified. Cross-border skirmishes and raids at the 38th Parallel persisted. The situation escalated into open warfare when North Korean forces invaded South Korea on 25 June 1950. It was the first significant armed conflict of the Cold War

The Vietnam War was a Cold War-era military conflict that occurred in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia from 1 November 1955 to the fall of Saigon on 30 April 1975. This war followed the First Indochina War and was fought between North Vietnam, supported by its communist allies, and the government of South Vietnam, supported by the United States and other anti-communist nations. The Viet Cong (also known as the National Liberation Front, or NLF), a lightly armed South Vietnamese communist-controlled common front, largely fought a guerrilla war against anti-communist forces in the region. The Vietnam People's Army (North Vietnamese Army) engaged in a more conventional war, at times committing large units into battle. U.S. and South Vietnamese forces relied on air superiority and overwhelming firepower to conduct search and destroy operations, involving ground forces, artillery, and airstrikes.

The U.S. government viewed involvement in the war as a way to prevent a communist takeover of South Vietnam as part of their wider strategy of containment. The North Vietnamese government and Viet Cong viewed the conflict as a colonial war, fought initially against France, backed by the U.S., and later against South Vietnam, which it regarded as a U.S. puppet state. American military advisors arrived in what was then French Indochina beginning in 1950. U.S. involvement escalated in the early 1960s, with troop levels tripling in 1961 and tripling again in 1962. U.S. combat units were deployed beginning in 1965. Operations spanned international borders, with Laos and Cambodia heavily bombed. American involvement in the war peaked in 1968, at the time of the Tet Offensive. After this, U.S. ground forces were gradually withdrawn as part of a policy known as Vietnamization. Despite the Paris Peace Accords, signed by all parties in January 1973, fighting continued.
.

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst


Oh, but I don't want people to think I'm saying Cheney was IN A BUNKER telling NORAD what to do -- it would be silly and unnecessary. They merely scheduled the drills to occur on the day of 9/11.

There will be no paperwork showing evidence of this.

Whether there was at one time or not; Cheney had two paper shredding trucks outside his home. He won't even divulge who was at his "Energy Task Force Meeting."

When asked to testify about 9/11. Bush and Cheney went together, with no recording devices, nor anyone able to write it down, and they spoke in secret to some other people.

It must be REALLY hard to have an event that took place look just like an event. If 9/11 happened like we were told, they wouldn't need secret f-ing testimonies and Bush and Cheney could talk on their own without help.

>> The only thing I know for sure is that the HID EVERYTHING. They act like a bunch of mobsters in every election. Even during Katrina, the administration made sure the bodies were recovered by a Funeral Company that they were previously involved in concerning a campaign scam in Texas. Other than the say-so of some convicted felons who had prior business with the Bush family, we don't know how many body bags were filled after the Katrina disaster.


>> The entire 8 years of the Bush administration was one [ blunder / fabulous happy accident ] followed by misinformation and secrecy.


To this day, Cheney still has control of what is called the "Executive Hit Squad." LINK

I know, nobody is supposed to like Raw Story, But it's not as if the MEDIA were investigating crap in this country.


>> Loving your country or your kids does not require people to be BLIND. We have a media that so incredibly bad it can't even cover stories that half the internet blogosphere knows until 6 months after it's a Facebook meme. We have record profits while the US is experiencing a massive loss in wages and jobs. We have two wars and more on the way. We have unparalleled anti-constitutional laws on the books. We have a government that cannot even give a wrist slap to an oil company that kills the Gulf -- and even gives them new drilling permits to "try it again."

This country has no justice system that can investigate and imprison a crook who has more than a million dollars. The 2008 Wall Street/Bank collapse was a surprise to Allen Greenspan and apparently, people who watch TV News but not to me or anyone outraged over the corruption we are witnessing.

>> Not only could the Bush administration pull off 9/11, they could pull off destroying New Orleans by keeping needed supplies from reaching them or giving JOBS to locals to rebuild. FEMA trailers and a whole fleet of well-connected contractors gentrifying a whole city -- and it's somehow a secret?


PRAVDA could not have done better than our Lame Stream Media. We've committed war crimes and nobody sees Iraq as if it were not like Poland. Our Economy is strangling while the ONLY response of our politicians is to pretend to not be able to agree on the time of day, while they pass rules to make secret detentions legal in the middle of the night.

We are on a slow train to Hell -- and everybody has to argue that 9/11 was just the first depot where the train got fueled up.

>> Fine, let's say that it was just Bin Laden and 19 guys who solely did 9/11, no assistance other than bumbling administration. AFTERWARDS, however, Bush put us at war, destroyed the economy, ruined our judicial system and it's been on the same path ever since. It doesn't change the fact that people are STILL oblivious to the destination or the journey.

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

To this day, Cheney still has control of what is called the "Executive Hit Squad."

You see there you go again - your own little set of facts. That was one story reported by one journalist in 2009. It was never confirmed. And you added even another layer - that the hit squads are still operating and still reporting to a FORMER vice president!

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

 

Maybe should ditch the political paranoia and stick to the facts

What political paranoia?

George W. Bush is a mass murderer, and 9/11 should be investigated as a crime. This is a man, who walks around and puts up "WANTED Dear or Alive", and in reality such a poster SHOULD be put up for HIM and HIS ENTIRE FAMILY for what they did.

You people are so arrogant you think this is something like a joke, that can be argued. The facts are not to be argued ... burning kerosine, does not bring down a steel structure ... period. You believe that, and you should go to a lunatic assylum ... your brain is damaged goods. You didn't read your school books, you missed the difference in temperature ...

Look at this George W. Bush ... he puts up a deck of cards, with peoples names and faces on them. He puts up a prize, for peoples lives ...

The man is an insane criminal ... a mass murderer, who leaves a legend of dead children in his wague ... he leave the legacy of deformed children, cruelly disformed by his military use of radioactive material, in his insane wars for what he calls .... JUSTICE:

Well, if there is justice in this world ... then George W. Bush and his entire staff, will be brought to justice and hung for their crimes ... that is just about what this crime is about. If there was justice, then we should read about generals and staff members, describing how they helped hang these criminal nazi murderers of countless women and children. Just like we used to see on Discovery channel, american soldiers graphically displaying how they helped hang German nazi murderers. Is the sole crime of Hitler, the fact that he was a german? or was his crime, what he did to people?

People wanting and demanding truth out of 9/11 is absolutely normal ... it is perfectly normal. Because there is absolutely nothing normal about 9/11. It's not about the 3000 people that died on Manhattan anymore ... these 3000 people, are of no consequence to the over million people that the US government has murdered in the vague of this event. It's about the cry for justice ... and as we live further from this event, we see further injustice in the world ... we see our hopes and dreams collapse with the economy. We see the money disappear, just as it disappeared in "imaginary" toilet paper in the pentagon. We see over a million people dead ... we see dead women and children ... we see deformed children, born from radiation ... and we see the government of today, demanding war against Iran ... with more deaths, with more dead children as result.

Now, WE WANT JUSTICE ... we ask you to demand investigations, and bring about the truth ... because, the words of George will be made true.

YOU WILL EITHER DO JUSTICE, OR JUSTICE WILL BE BROUGHT TO YOU.

So, I say ... get that darn investigation going on ... and bring those responsible to justice, before justice hits again.

reply to post by bjarneorn

Well, if there is justice in this world ... then George W. Bush and his entire staff, will be brought to justice and hung for their crimes....

That's a strange view of "justice". Basically the old "fair trial to be immeadiately followed by an execution". Yeah - lets give people like you the reins of justice.

reply to post by hooper


Then again, extracting 'confessions' through torture is a strange view of justice as well.

Not anymore though. It's now commonly accepted, and people like you don't even bat an eyelid at it; do you?

USA! USA! USA!

Your country right or wrong, right?

reply to post by snowcrash911


I never liked it. Thought it was counterproductive and knew it was going to be a legal mindfield down the road. Don't think it went on as many times as people think it did. I think it was one of those things were the CIA and the military were more than happy to let the rumors about torture float around. Better to let your enemy think you might than to think you never would. Justice aside, I firmly believe that there are people out there that deserve to be tortured, not for any particular information, just because. But that's not justice. Neither is calling for hangings and investigations in the same sentence.

reply to post by snowcrash911

USA! USA! USA!

Your country right or wrong, right?

Well, I was born here and I'll probably die here so yes, the United States of America is my country regardless of past or future transgressions. I reserve the right to criticize and praise. I also am willing to except the notion that mine is not the only voice and mine is not the most important voice but it is the only one I have so I will use it when I see fit including in defense of my country.

Originally posted by hooper

That's a strange view of "justice". Basically the old "fair trial to be immeadiately followed by an execution". Yeah - lets give people like you the reins of justice.

George W Bush on trial, in the US? That is a joke ... George W. Bush, Cheney, Colin Powell and the rest of the staff, deserve the same treatment they gave Ghaddaffi ... a bullet in the head. They deseerve the same treatment they gave the prisoners at Abu Grahib ... something else up their behind ... they deserve the same treatment for their children as they gave the Children of Iraq ... mutilation ... deformation by radioactive dust.

Let us all be fair ... and call upon the Talmut for real Godly justice ... an eye for an eye

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

 

To this day, Cheney still has control of what is called the "Executive Hit Squad."

You see there you go again - your own little set of facts. That was one story reported by one journalist in 2009. It was never confirmed. And you added even another layer - that the hit squads are still operating and still reporting to a FORMER vice president!

>> well I'm not quoting the Main Stream Media -- if you've been on the internet long, you'll notice they are kind of behind by a year and don't cover anything if a sponsor might be offended.

Is the Cheney hit squad real?
Can't say 100% -- but it fits his fascist profile. I'd totally think this was nonsense if it was said about Pat Boone, for instance.

The guy you are defending, made money selling weapons to Saddam. Of reducing payouts for asbestos damage via his Supreme Court contacts and reducing liabilities for his company. Ran an "offshoring" operation so that rich people could avoid taxes. What a sweat heart, right? Those are all on the record.

But what was Cheney doing with the Domestic spying BEFORE 9/11? I think it had a lot to do with how easily the Patriot act passed; Cheney was collecting dirt on politicians and commentators. They weren't after Al Qaeda -- they were after info to extort rivals and make them follow Cheney/Bush's lead. -- but that's all speculation. It just helps make sense of how Dick Cheney got away with so much and was so "influential". It could NOT have been his charm.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

 

I think I understand the source of so much of your vitrol - you are deeply invested in your very own set of facts. A engine a mile away? Mid air break up? Maybe if you stuck to the facts, rather than making up your own conspiracy friendly reality, you would feel a less anxious about the whole situation.

Depends on WHICH official story you read and when, I suppose.

Is the official story now ONLY a collision with the ground, or do they talk about it breaking up and THEN slamming into the ground. SOMETHING has to explain the debris found in other areas while the main impact site was mostly a small crater and disintegrated plane.

Forgive me if I'm not commenting on the OFFICIAL description of events -- I'm going by the story prior to 2003, before they REFINED it.

>> Google about the plane engine found over a mile away -- that's a pretty big BOUNCE for an impact with the ground.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by bjarneorn

 

Well, if there is justice in this world ... then George W. Bush and his entire staff, will be brought to justice and hung for their crimes....

That's a strange view of "justice". Basically the old "fair trial to be immeadiately followed by an execution". Yeah - lets give people like you the reins of justice.

No. A FAIR trial would be one that DID not include a tortured confession. Since all the EVIDENCE of pre-meditated invasion is out in the open, and the After Downing Street Memos show a direct link to falsify reasons for war -- we might EXPECT a guilty verdict.

Cheney already admitted to approving torture -- so it's an EASY case.

Quite a few countries have various BushCo members who are wanted. The administration had to spend a lot of time and resources to get countries like Germany and Canada to pull them off the wanted list. One small country has convicted Bush and Cheney of war crimes in absentia.

Feel free to google these facts.

Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by bjarneorn

 

Well, if there is justice in this world ... then George W. Bush and his entire staff, will be brought to justice and hung for their crimes....

That's a strange view of "justice". Basically the old "fair trial to be immeadiately followed by an execution". Yeah - lets give people like you the reins of justice.

No. A FAIR trial would be one that DID not include a tortured confession. Since all the EVIDENCE of pre-meditated invasion is out in the open, and the After Downing Street Memos show a direct link to falsify reasons for war -- we might EXPECT a guilty verdict.

Cheney already admitted to approving torture -- so it's an EASY case.

Then, why isn't he in custody already?

The point I am making, and which you haven given me already ... is that nobody gave the Children of Iraq, a fair trial ... nobody gave the future generations of Iraq, a fair trial. There was no trial ... people already knew, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but went ahead non the less and mutilated, murdered and children are still being born deformed as a result.

Sir, why is Mr. Dicky still roaming free after his confession? you tell me please? why is Colin Powell still roaming free, after Mai Lai, and Iraq ... inciting murder on millions of civilians?

AN easy case? really? ... Sir, I don't even see the people of the US, demanding an investigation yet ... I don't see the people of the US, bow their head in shame for they have done ... yet ... I don't see the majority of the people in the US, questioning 9/11 ... as of yet.