In This Day and Age...How?

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
iamiam, your thoughts are in direct conflict with the scripture

Open your eyes, it is right in front of you.

The Sermon on the Mount

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
Luke 9:23-24 (NIV) Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it."
Mark 8:34-35 (NIV) Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it."
Mat 10:38 (NIV) ... anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

we do have a heavy burden to carry.

I am sorry, I did not realise you were a follower of Christ.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas

Matthew 12:31-32
Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come

Mark 3:22-30
I [Jesus] say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation;' because they said, 'He has an unclean spirit'

So, which version did he say now? The one in Mark, or the one in Matthew?

And there is your problem.

If you came to me and tried to convert me, I would point out that God is ONE, all the prophets taught the he is ONE, they never taught anything about a "trinity" or that God had sons or daughters or whatever.

Now, when you try to convert me using the books of the NT which have such discrepances between each other (the one above is just a minor one), I am well in my rights to doubt them. More so when I know that the authors of the said books are anonymous persons, who wrote what they had HEARD (so it is hearsay), they gathered oral traditions, mixed them with a few written statements here and there, were all influenced by a guy named Paul (who preached something which the original Jesus disciples did not like at all), and they all wrote to their respective communites.
What they could not know at that time, is that in the future those books will all be collected into one book - thus making apparent the huge amount of contradictions and discrepancies in them.

So, if you are still trying to convert me, let me just ask you one more thing: What were the last words of Jesus before his death?

Right ....

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


well luke 23:46 says
and when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
Matthew 27: 50 says
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
Mark 15: 37 says
And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

you gotta read the scriptures as a whole, and i know you were refering to Eloi, eloi, lama sabachthani." meaning my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? refered to in Mark 15:34, Matthew 27:46, luke doesn't refer to it)

well Jesus said that in his moment of weakness while being crucified on the cross and bearing the pain of the world's sin, past, present, and future.

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

 

well luke 23:46 says
and when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
Matthew 27: 50 says
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
Mark 15: 37 says
And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

you gotta read the scriptures as a whole, and i know you were refering to Eloi, eloi, lama sabachthani." meaning my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? refered to in Mark 15:34, Matthew 27:46, luke doesn't refer to it)

well Jesus said that in his moment of weakness while being crucified on the cross and bearing the pain of the world's sin, past, present, and future.

edit on 28-12-2011 by DelayedChristmas because: (no reason given)

No, I was not referring to the "Eli, Eli" episode, because for once I can never believe a Prophet of God (Jesus) would say that. NEVER.

I was literally referring to Jesus' last words.

Were these his last words:

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. - John, 19:30

or maybe these:

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. - Luke, 23:46

or, he said nothing, as in Mark and Matthew (apart from the Eli Eli episode which is totally absent in Luke and John)?

I mean, come on, this is a MOMENTOUS EVENT in the life of Jesus, witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people - the CULMINATION of HIS WORK - as "prophesied" - and the four authors of the Gospels do not even know what were Jesus' last word??

They can't even agree on this one last important moment?

Really, how can you expect anyone to take anything from your books seriously?

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


The Bible is a mirror. We see our own reflection in it, just like any other book that reveals truth. Read the dictionary and God will still be there revealing truth. God's spirit is in all of us revealing truth as it arrives. The soul then determines the impression. This is the problem if the heart is hard and set to a material reality. When you see the image from your own, the quality of what is seen is determined by your own condition. The Bible refers to the ground of the heart as soil and truth as a seed. The Bible is full of symbols that are seeds of information. Compare this to the weeds we can get from the world. Crossing over to understanding never comes until symbols grow on good soil. The bridge between the literal seed and its expression to form is the virtue in the soil. Good soil expresses good seed to proper form. Poor soil loves the weeds. Know your own heart by its fruit.

Some people see the Bible as a poor reflector. In reality, the light only shines when the weeds are cleared away. Seeds grow when light nourishes them in tilled soil. You may see this as a trick or some deranged attempt to gain something from you. What is my motivation? Tell me why I bother with my precious free time if there is a good answer.

One reason: I possess something so profound and meaningful, I want to scream to the world: "HAVE YOU HEARD THIS????" My life has transitioned from the pit to heaven on earth. Nothing in life can do this apart from the truth of God. Exchange pride for faith and the your world is new and full of potential and opportunity.

Malachi 3:10
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.

The tithe is our sacrifice to God. Every man has that one thing that they are unwilling to let go from the temple (body / Soul / Mind). Our pride will never allow it to be gone if we selfishly hold on to our sin. Once the tithe is brought into the storehouse, God pours out the blessing. We never lose what we give up, but simply get it back the way it was designed to be. Give up lust and receive unspeakable joy and peace. Give up a corrupt lifestyle and receive a life of contentment and wealth. Give up fear and receive courage. Give up stealing and receive gifts from God. Nothing we are asked to give up was meant for our good in the first place. God always provides the replacement. Every person knows their own sin, just like every person knows the truth already. The Bible is not necessary for this. The Living Word comes to us by request.

Abraham was asked to sacrifice Issac on an alter. When he was willing to give his own son up, God provided the replacement. When we were unwilling to give up our sin, God provided His own willing Son as the sacrifice. God shows us by example and is a friend, just like the Christians here on ATS.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

 

usual copy and paste wall of text.

Here:

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi



No, I was not referring to the "Eli, Eli" episode, because for once I can never believe a Prophet of God (Jesus) would say that. NEVER.

I was literally referring to Jesus' last words.

Were these his last words:

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. - John, 19:30

or maybe these:

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. - Luke, 23:46

or, he said nothing, as in Mark and Matthew (apart from the Eli Eli episode which is totally absent in Luke and John)?

I mean, come on, this is a MOMENTOUS EVENT in the life of Jesus, witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people - the CULMINATION of HIS WORK - as "prophesied" - and the four authors of the Gospels do not even know what were Jesus' last word??

They can't even agree on this one last important moment?

Really, how can you expect anyone to take anything from your books seriously?

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


do not all mark, matthew, john, and luke all agree that as he gave up his spirit right before he died? the authors did not need to repeat such things, because it would be more indepth in the other books. just IMHO

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


Why concentrate on his death when it was his life that was important?

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

 

do not all mark, matthew, john, and luke all agree that as he gave up his spirit right before he died? the authors did not need to repeat such things, because it would be more indepth in the other books. just IMHO

No, they do not agree. As you can read above. One of them says "he said such and such", the other one says "he said such and such" - yet talking about the same event.

Which shows that they HAD NO IDEA about the event. They were only following conjecture. Hearsay. People oral traditions.

Some of them tried to "improve" this a bit by incorporating the "Eli, eli" episode, as in "look, he said these words as they were prophesied in the OT" - but apparently he did not say them, it is the Gospel authors that PUT those words in the mouth of Jesus.

As they put many other words.

As I said, they were writing for their own communities, each in their own time and place, separate from each other - so that for example, Luke NEVER THOUGHT that later people would be able to read HIS gospel along with that of John, which said COMPLETELY SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

He wasn't worried about that, because THERE WAS NO GOSPEL OF JOHN yet. He could not have "predicted" these discrepancies to occurr.

He did not even care that his account is different from that of Mark, which already existed - because he knew that the community he is writing to (his whole Gospel is a letter to some guy named Teophilus) had NO ACCESS to the gospel of Mark.

And that just shows the whole magnitude of this problem. These authors, were ANONYMOUS people, no one really knows who they were, what were their names, or where and when exactly did they live.
It is known that (appart from the author of Matthew) most probably none of them even lived in Palestine in that time. Most probably one was living in Alexandria. They were gentile authors writing for mostly gentile audience (ex. Matthew), who even got many jewish customs wrong, or quoted the Old Testament wrong.

They are UTTERLY UNRELIABLE.

This cannot be accepted as the word of God, because it isn't. It's the writings of men, anonymous authors, who all had an agenda and a religious view THEY were trying to portrait. They did not write what really happend - they wrote what THEY thought SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas

the more you know, the more you will be accounted for.

No. The more you know, the more you realize how much you do NOT KNOW.

Some people hate Christ so much it doesn't matter what happens, they will find reasons to persecute. Consider Christopher Hitchens' hatred for Mother Theresa. It doesn't matter what we say or do, they will persecute. This is just a forerunner to the coming massacre,

Originally posted by IAMIAM

What is so hard my friend?

Christ did not give you a burden so hard to carry.

Here is how you convert someone.

You bless the meek.

You help the poor in spirit.

You comfort those who mourn.

You fight for those who suffer in the name of righteousness.

You show his love and affection in your every word and deed.

You do not call your Brothers and Sisters sinners, raca or even fool!

Do all these things in HIS name, and then people will know he lives.

It is a choice. If you cannot do it because you believe it, then do it for his Great Work.

With Love,

Your Brother

I'm not sure if this would be helpful to the OP's question, but FWIW, IAmIAm's response, as well as most of his contributions on these forums as they relate to religion, pique more of my curiosity about his system of beliefs, and the ways he has allowed that system to alter his perceptions and see his fellow man as a brother, not an opponent, than any bible quote or any other type of coaxing. IAm truly speaks from a place of respect and non-judgement, and it sincerely comes through in his writings. Were I on a religious journey, I would not hesitate to have discussions with him. I am not a Christian, nor do I plan on becoming one, as I've already walked that walk and it was not for me. I found the answers and peace I need in exploring a different system of beliefs. However, IAm's approach has earned so much of my respect, that I would honestly feel more comfortable discussing religious and spiritual topics with him than any other person I've come across on these forums. It's his example, people. It's almost as if - get this - he already respects someone for who they are, without inferring they are in need of improvement. I could be wrong, but that's how I perceive his writing. It conveys his utmost security in his beliefs. Attempting to convert anyone to your belief system always conveys insecurity and a need for validation.

Hopefully this helps you with your question, OP.

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
..... Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom......

Now just why is it that anyone would want to convert to this and bring fear into their lives?

"Come, open your heart, and let us fill it with fear"
Do you see how that seems a bit illogical?

Originally posted by Tea4One
If I were a Christian, like my Mother. I wouldn't teach the values etc through "you're going to burn in hell" and "you need to be saved." That kind of ridiculous crap. I would teach them by first as an example, secondly debating the subject rather than lecturing it and thirdly, saying small things like "God bless" alongside a simple goodbye. Lecturing the masses and making them fearful doesn't work as well as it used to.

Exactly. When my own kids, a boy and a girl, were little, I allowed them to go to church with their Mom, a Christian, and also taught them the ways of Wiccans, and about the Divine Mother. After attending a church service, they would ask me a series of questions, which I would either answer, or promise to get the answers at a later time. The church thing didn't last very long, one Sunday morning my wife at the time asked my daughter to get up and get dressed for church, to which she replied, "no longer interested in hearing about hell and demons, Mom." She was 7 at the time. My son, 3 years older, had already gotten into an argument with the preacher because he said God was a woman, not a man. Both studied, and both today are Wiccans, not because of me, but because of the ways of the church, which turned them away just for having questions.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


Leading and living by example is a good start, but they need to know who taught you to be that way. Your pastor or priest doesn't teach you how to be christian, only Jesus does that through his ministry that we can read about. He is the epitome of how we are to live all the time, not just on sunday morning, but 24/7. The truth is you do not even have to go to church to worship or learn his word, you can do that right from the comfort of your own home and then take what you learn and apply it to your life. There is no harm in claiming to be christian but you want to live that lifestyle constantly so that others can see the change from how you used to be to what you have transformed into. Embrace the spiritual transformation and let your old self die away and that is how you let the light of Jesus shine through you. It is not your light, it is his light that shines through you and give him the glory because it belongs to him and not us.

I believe religion should be discussed much more regularly in today's society, especially with groups of differing opinions. However I do not believe in shoving an ideal down someone's throat, regardless of what that ideal is. A good friend once said "believe whatever you want, just know why you believe it".

reply to post by DelayedChristmas



I go about it by being a really pleasant person to be around. I don't say anything until someone asks me, "why are you always happy/smiling?" I simply respond by telling them how god is good to me and I love the fact that he will be good to anyone who accepts him and his concepts. I tell them about it in a way to make them want more of it, if possible.

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


Go to youtube and type in "tares among the wheat" this guy has a great concept of deciphering the discrepencies of the bible. He says any book that was not written by a direct prophet has been added by the church for the church's benefit.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas



The hard part of talking to anyone is sometimes you come across some people who can not accept anything beyond physical perceptions. They will feel like they are superior by ridiculing you and calling you a Jesus freak or offer you Jesus cookies. Those types are convinced of there own greatness and no one is going to change their outlook. These types will usually get jobs that have them work with lesser people to help them convince themselves of their own mental superiority. If the person is so spiritually void that they would openly mock someone over sharing a spiritual belief, then you can only share the word and leave them to their "cool" friends and cookie distribution.
Peace to all.