Guess what my boss said about Ron Paul and the military....

I watched both video's. I can't say any of the information regarding Iran, Iraq, Oil, Saudi, etc...was news to me, it wasn't. I would say I have always accepted these actions as essentially nessecary evils to keep the oil flowing. Because until we do 2 things, that's what runs our economy, for better or worse.

Those 2 things are:

1. Actually develop enough new energy sources to greatly reduce our dependence on oil. I know there are many thoughts that there are grand conspiracies to prevent this, and they may well be right. But we have to get off oil. Which brings me to number 2.

2. We have to be willing to drill here in the meantime, (probably 10 to 20 years) for a transition to those new and in some cases undiscovered, replacement sources IF you want to do it while REDUCING our dependence on foreign (Mid East) Oil.

This leads to my first question to Ron Paul supporters. Will he let the energy companies drill our oil as a condition to allowing or developing the alternatives? If he does not we have to continue importing, which means continuing the military presence in the ME to allow it to flow. If he will then that checks off a major concern I have with him.

Next. When I hear Ron speak, he seems to want to bring ALL US Forces home. Well if we aren't importing oil then the forces in the ME could be drasticly if not entirely be pulled back. But what about S. Korea/Japan? By treaty we have forces there (about 25,000 I think) to protect them from North Korea. They are MAJOR trading partners and want our troops there (not the entire populace, I know about the protest movements). We could probably reduce troops there, but until N. Korea is not a threat we stil need a presence there. What about Germany? We still have forces there (not like we did in the Cold War, but fairly substantial). We already have plans to reduce those, but the Germans have actually requested we keep what's left there, for various reasons. The troops in Germany help us with our NATO commitments, which is required by TREATY. Do we withdrawl from NATO? Europe is our MAJOR trading block. A stable Europe is in our interests....it didn't go so well when we weren't there in 1914 and 1939.

I guess my point is, while I don't have a problem getting out of the Mid East and even significantly reducing many of our overseas bases..... I feel Ron Paul wants to ABANDON some of our allies and pull everyone back. Well that's not smart, and not going to happen. Can someone show me otherwise?

Prior to WWII, the US had ONE deployable army division in the US, and weak elements in the Philipines and Hawaii. We know what happened to them, we know the cost of WWII in both money and lives, and it seems to me like Ron Paul wants to take us back to that kind of isolationism the invited WWI and WWII. I haven't even spoken of expansive China. Even if we our out of the ME, you can bet they will be. I haven't spoken of Nationalist Russia. They still are a tertiery threat to many parts of the world (depends on their leadership, to many hard liners still around).

By the way, I'd have to look into it, but the video's talk about IKE giving the go ahead to overthrow the Iranian's back in the 1950s. While true, I beleive the Iranian connections to the Soviets were much more expansive then the video's imply and was the reason the coups were ordered. So yes the "blowback" argument is entirely valid, but the video's ignore the very VALID threat in the 50's the Soviets posed and the coup had (I beleive, going to try to dig some later if time allows) as much to do with the Soviets as it did UK oil.

reply to post by Dorian9


If he is an actual officer and not enlisted, they have a different oath. So I am not surprised by that.

Here is the first link I could find, I know the enlisted is the same as the oath I took.

citizensagainstproobamamediabias.wordpress.com...

Now according to this the Officers only swear by the Constitution and not POTUS. So I would think he would reserve himself against indiscriminately detaining citizens.

reply to post by calnorak


I have been waiting to hear from you. We continued our communication after my last post and he said the very same thing you are saying. He WILL uphold the constitution and require his men to do the same regardless of the order(s) given by POTUS. I am not surprised...this guy is a very good and honorable man that Americans should be deeply proud of. I would die for him...he would die for us.

Wow quite a few unexpected replies since I last checked. The conversation in threads like this seem to lean toward whether or not the US military will detain it's own civilians. When I see my boss tomorrow I'm not sure if I will be able to converse with him on this subject again, because honestly, it really pissed me off. He is one of those Muslim-hating Christians that cherry picks lessons from the Bible that they personally like. He acts like he knows nothing of mercy and compassion.

reply to post by wWizard


Ask this bloke how many countries has Iran invaded in the last 100 years (0) and then ask him how many countries has American invaded in the last 100 years and then ask him on the basis of the figures, which country is the peaceful country and who is violent country.

Ask him is he concerned about the number of nuclear weapons Israel has?

i don't think the majority of the military don't want to go to war, i think they don't want to be cannon fodder to further a political and business agenda schemed on a golf course by politicians and business interests.

the worst combination are people like the bush family or romney who are tangled in the defence and oil industry.

its seems the republicans have a monopoly on defence and oil and the democrats wall street.

reply to post by Dorian9


There is a difference between wanting to fight and wanting to fight for a just cause; a soldier who joins the military with hopes of just fighting is a psychopath and belongs in a mental institution, not on the battle field.

On the other hand, someone who joins the military to fight for a cause, such as protecting the sovereignty of his or her country, would have absolutely no desire to fight an unjust war. What business do we have destroying nations?

Going back to the original post, unfortunately freedom includes the right to be stupid and brainwashed. At least it's not strickly enforced like it is in totally fascist states. Sometimes it's hard to imagine the human race ever reaching a coherent mindset, especially given all the garbage that passes for "information" these days,

I think your hesitation to get any more into it with your boss is a wise impulse. You'll probably just both get angry and more adamant. If you've said anything wise that you think he should take to heart, he needs to come around to understand it on his own, not in a confrontation. And...he is your boss after all. I've been dealing with this type of thing a lot in recent years. Nothing good comes from pushing it when it turns defensive.

reply to post by FreedomKnight


Your response is probably the most ignorant, uninformed post I've ever seen on ATS, and that is saying a tremendous amount. Many 50 and 60 year old were the one's protesting the Vietnam war. That is hardly bowing down to the government. I am in the demographic of which your write, and probably know a lot more people in that age group then you do and believe me we do not all tow the party line.

lol our boss isnt bright there is no threat... just a giant american freemason lie..

I'm 58 and old enough to remember the protests against Vietnam. I had several high school friends who went there and never came back, and more that came back damaged in one way or another. Our whole generation was scarred by that. Some remained deeply suspicious of government, others never really were to start with. I always thought this latter group seemed slightly dazed by it all.

I think it comes down to this: Half of the population has an IQ under 100, by definition; And to me, anyways, an average IQ is pretty damned limited, especially now with the education most people get. Imagine someone with very little curiosity about the way the world works, not good at book learning, and not inclined to change that fact. Now add in religion (not to mention early lies about Santa Claus, the Easter Fairy and the Tooth Bunny...); children by instinct HAVE to be able to trust adults; their lives depend on it. If Mommy and Daddy say there's a big rather scary but loving guy up in the clouds who can see everything you think and do, and if you pray your prayers will get answered, and Jeebus died for your sins, well, the kid is going to take it all in, encode it, as odd and confusing as it all sounds, cuz Mom and Dad say so. Very few have the mental wherewithall to resist what is, in effect, propaganda and brainwashing.

Fast forward to your boss. He's not the brightest bulb in the world (as we've already determined, well over 50% of the population are not..) he may be a great contractor, but his ability to think rationally and skeptically is severely limited due to his early upbringing. He now believes what he hears on the radio and sees on the teevee, cuz they've taken the place of mommy and daddy, and 'they wouldn't lie on teevee...'. He's doing the best he can, truly, but he'll never be able to make sense of the world. It's far too complicated for any one person, even the brightest, and no one has access to the whole picture. Most people are quite content, if fear driven, to stay in their own little neighborhood, thought-wise.

The greatest flaw in humans is their inability to plan more than one harvest season ahead in time... this flaw has led to most wars, Fukushima, all things bad and horrific. Add in the mistrust and fear engendered in confused and not-too-bright people by someone who is smarter than them, and, well, there's a reason the more savvy types have been called witches and killed over the centuries. We've allowed the race to become stagnant and instead of embracing those that know more or think more rationally, we've eliminated them. Reverse Darwinism.

reply to post by FreedomKnight


Hey now, I'm in that age group and I'm not brainwashed! lol I'm sure the military are fed up with being deployed to kill ppl that we have no reason to be killing.I know that I don't want our country to be the '911' of the world. If people in another country really do want democracy, it's something that has to be bought and paid for in blood. The citizens blood. We had to do it here.You can't just hand it to them, it won't be worth anything.But it's they're blood that has to be shed for it, NOT OURS.

as a VIETNAM VETERAN i am very tired of wars fought for lies of politics
the average soldier today is much more informed than the past and as such will be less willing to die for a political agenda
if iran were a threat to isreal that would be taken care of by isreal so why do we need to involve our children in the petty fights of others ?
the veterans of this country are used up then forgotten so i say GO RON PAUL

Originally posted by jude11

HIM: They are just disgruntled military who don't want to go to war.

He may not know how close to the truth he is...

Of course they're disgruntled. They are discovering the truth of being used as pawns in the elite game of World Chess. They have seen innocent people die, Countries being invaded and destroyed...for nothing.

They're disgruntled because they're waking up.

I know someone who decided he "hates America" after being in the military and learning the truth about the war for cash machine. Yikes! Needless to say, he won't be re-enlisting. Sad that he went that far in the other direction.

Originally posted by jude11

HIM: They are just disgruntled military who don't want to go to war.

He may not know how close to the truth he is...

Of course they're disgruntled. They are discovering the truth of being used as pawns in the elite game of World Chess. They have seen innocent people die, Countries being invaded and destroyed...for nothing.

They're disgruntled because they're waking up.

Peace

This hits the nail on the head. For one, it's not a war...it's a political game.

People used to go to war with Pride in what they were doing. They did it to protect their Country, and Families.

They felt it was their honorable duty. What we have today is NOT honorable. I don't blame them for feeling disgruntled.

It's hard to be a Patriotic pawn.....