Are the stories of 911 "jumpers" true?

Originally posted by jeichelberg
I do not know where all these videos are surfacing from...When I watched the coverage that day, all I saw was one person jump from the buildings...

I was visiting family in West New York, New Jersey near where I grew up on JFK Blvd--East (yes, there's such a town in NJ) and a mile or so down JFK Blvd--East near the next town, Weehawken, along with a crowd of locals, people in their cars waiting at the traffic light and a few groups of tourists, we saw 7 jumpers within a 15-minute period. The first person we saw jump was a woman in a bright blue dress or suit.

There was a short time-frame between when the planes hit and when these people jumped. They did not jump immediately after the buildings were hit. I did not actually see the planes hit the buildings. I was not aware of what was going on until immediately after the planes hit when my uncle started yelling for everyone to look and brought this to our attention. Some people were hovering outside of the windows before they leaped to their death. It was the most helpless feeling to watch this horrid and tragic scene/event unfold.

I was also on my cell phone with a friend who was a few miles away outside of a building on York St in Jersey City, NJ. He witnessed 3 jumpers. There is a long stretch of road that crosses through several towns, along the Hudson River, where you could see the Towers from NJ, right across the River. It's hard to imagine how close you are to the NYC skyline from this area (especially JFK Blvd East) unless you've actually been there.

We were close enough to be able to differentiate between debris and people, and we could tell if the jumpers were male or female. I do not know exactly how many people (all totaled) jumped, but we know of at least 9 that did. Although we were facing East, we could not see the one side of the Towers that faced East. We didn't see any jumpers who were holding hands, so I'm not sure if that is true.

Until you go to JFK Blvd (East) around the Weehawken area on the New Jersey side it's hard to imagine that you could see it. But, through most of that entire 5-mile stretch you can see everything.

It's not a made up story -- it is very true. Since many people do not believe people would jump to their deaths I have only discussed this with 3 other people who, I am close to and would not admit to what I saw, even to those who have asked. It is very difficult to discuss. Those who witnessed this also said they felt the same way. I have even denied seeing the jumpers because I did not want to be challenged and re-live that day. I also wanted to avoid being asked specific questions. But, I can tell you it is true. It is not a fabrication.

Unless you're in a place of terror, shock and panic and you have less than a minute to make such a critical decision ... to burn to death OR to free-fall to death, you really don't know for certain how you will react. We might think we know ourselves in that way, and assume we know what we would do, but we really don't know. We might possibly do just the opposite of what we think we would do.

reply to post by septic

It appears the images and videos of the jumpers are faked. Who would so such a thing?

You the one that has been faked. Go back and re read your own thread. Miss "Psyops" has been debunked.
Or don't, who cares about your little truther charade anyway. You the "real" truther huh?

Intrptr out

reply to post by septic


I understand your questioning of the Official Story.

I do not believe the OS myself, so please do not assume you understand my position.

There are plenty of physical and political abnormalities that need real questioning, so I do not take offense to the suggestion that the Official Story is blatantly false.

But if you do not think that the poor people who made the decision to jump instead of burn were real, it is likely because you were not a witness on that fateful Tuesday.

People jumped, and they died as a result.

Challenge the official story, but understand that every aspect of the tragedy was not faked.

These deaths were real.

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by septic

 

One of the ways propagandists control you is through the use of fear.

Yah, like you. I been debating with you on another 911 thread about structure and collapse and I am amazed at how insistent you are about how "everything is faked". Here you have surpassed yourself with this video. Shows how little understanding you have about engineering or cameras even. This "psyops" witch is fooling you with her "blown up" photos? I'm done with you Septic. Cut your 911 eye out, it's septic and will go gangrenous if you don't act quick.

Interesting story.

The video was a quick example, and had you read the thread you would see many others linked as well. I repeatedly link to the Raphael piece, but none of the ATS "real" truthers or true OSers will touch it.

Yes, I'm the one who's the insistent one, but then unlike you, the evidence I bring gives me a certain confidence that might seem insistent to one who hasn't done the homework, at least judging by the volume of nasty responses to my thread.

reply to post by intrptr


Video has been removed from Youtube.

Originally posted by septic

Originally posted by surrealist
I find this thread offensive to everyone involved in the incident, both those who died and the families involved. Disgraceful.

Unless no one jumped, as evidenced by the fraud, in which case isn't your outrage slightly displaced? It appears the images and videos of the jumpers are faked. Who would so such a thing?

My outrage is very well placed. You asked above: 'What if I am not wrong?' You are wrong! Period. I'm not querying whether 911 was an inside job or not, just to be clear here. But this pathetic thread makes a mockery of all involved, including witnesses to the event. And here you are getting defensive and arrogant? If you cannot handle the criticism, then you are certainly in no position whatsoever to raise such an absurd conspiracy. You getting offended and reacting defensively is even more offensive to the poor souls who suffered directly and indirectly from the incident.

It is a horrible memory seeing the video of the guy falling, and later seeing other videos of the jumpers. I have thought about it from time to time and I think that indeed, some people chose to jump rather than burn. I also think some people might have been blinded by the smoke and flames and maybe fell to their deaths accidentally. Then also I think some of the people may have been blown out of windows by the force of explosions and or fire. At any rate is is the most horrific aspect of the whole event I think. Whoever is was or is responsible, 911 was a truly evil act, a crime against humanity. I hope at some point all that were involved will face the judgement of God.

This isn't a debate at all. This is more of an analysis on the OP's mental state. Mod, I am not trying to be intentionally rude, but I seriously think the OP has some problems. This isn't as bad as that rush of "9/11 was media fakery" threads not too long ago, and I pray that it does not become like that.

In response to the OP, I have only two (2) questions which I plead for you to answer:

1. Were you near the towers on that moment of 9/11? If you weren't, this will just continue to be another baseless thread, much like how many members are starting to substitute fact for ignorance. When I say many, I mean many; seems like our members are becoming increasingly more...stupid? No. Ignorant would be another more polite term. Sorry, don't mean to offend.

2. If you were there, then you must have seen the bodies. I was there, and I saw the bodies, but I was not near enough to hear the thumping, and I did not see the plane crash into the first building -- I wasn't watching the skies at that time. But if you weren't, then what would cause you, without ANY legitimate proof, to come upon a rational site like this, KNOWING FULL WELL you would be harassed if you had no evidence, and post such an outrageous claim with no slick of proof other than a faceless video by some woman who's tale no one can verify?

Not trying to offend, but you HAVE offended me. Not only me, who stood there and to this day is shocked that the world is more f'ed up than just gangs on the street, but offended the family's of those who perished in that freak event. I too think we were lied to, up to the Pentagon missile/plane and the suggestion that the "saudi's" who initiated the "attack" were agents from the American government, but this, and that wave of "media fakery" is just too much. You seriously have pissed some people off, and are lucky that a mod was kind enough to re-iterate the rules for you.

Tread lightly, as your feet may become scorched by the hate that you've reaped for yourself

Originally posted by Helmkat
I'm not sure what happens to Human memory over time. As a species we have a very disturbing ability to take facts of the past and suddenly call these facts into doubt. Sort of a strange "I wasn't there, didn't see it with my own eyes, it must be fake". People jumped, it happened, if your mind cannot deal with the horror, I am sorry.

This thread reminds me in a way of holocaust deniers.

Hoboy, now you're just reading from the manual, aren't you?

Glittering Generalities. Glittering generalities are intensely emotionally appealing words so closely associated with highly valued concepts and beliefs that they carry conviction without supporting information or reason. They appeal to such emotions as love of country, home; desire for peace, freedom, glory, honor, etc. They ask for approval without examination of the reason. Though the words and phrases are vague and suggest different things to different people, their connotation is always favorable: "The concepts and programs of the propagandist are always good, desirable, virtuous." Generalities may gain or lose effectiveness with changes in conditions. They must, therefore, be responsive to current conditions. Phrases which called up pleasant associations at one time may evoke unpleasant or unfavorable connotations at another, particularly if their frame of reference has been altered.

www.constitution.org...

I think we can almost all agree that there were twin towers that were burning that day with people in them. I know this because I watched the live news coverage that day (as it happened) and because I knew people who died in the buildings. We cannot imagine the horrors of dealing with what they dealt with that day. I think I would've been one of the ones to have seized the last ounce of control in my life and jumped. It has to be a better way to die than be choked and burnt to a crisp.

I think we all need to realize that images shot with digital devices, which include video cameras and still cameras, have to capture the image on imprecise sensors to then process objects into a geometric algorithm for storage. Each device has its own software. Some devices have better software than others. All software do their best to get the job done (but not always well). Even when the job is done well, there are other areas where ODDITIES can occur like in the compression software. I have no doubt that the odd fake-looking body falling in the OP is one of these instances, but is actually one of the souls who perished on that day.

reply to post by septic


I was not there, but I did see the PBS ( I think) special on it. It followed the French Film crew that videoed the first plane strike to the WTC with the Fire Truck it was with. The crew made it into the Lobby of one of the towers. You could hear "thuds" hitting the top of the Lobby and the look on the fireman's faces left no doubt in my mind that they thought they were bodies impacting from jumpers. I still remember how the fireman looked at each other when they heard those sounds........really bad foreboding.

Here is the video I am talking about....

Originally posted by Pinkarella
reply to post by intrptr

 

Video has been removed from Youtube.

That was my point... The "they" censors are at work all the time rewriting history, omitting the truth from under out very noses. The video I had bookmarked was of the Helo flyby of the ground around tower (?) showing numerous bodies and holes from bodies that fell or "jumped". The narrative told of the lobby glass painted red with so much blood from the impacts. Most of the people evacuating that day from the towers saw it. (the lobby window)
Edited from our screens by the powers that be.

(sorry about that)

Originally posted by Starwise
reply to post by septic

 

Okay I just showed my husband who has been a Graphic Illustrator since 1992, the video with the photographs. His opinion:

The Man falling with knee bent, the famous one: Not faked regular Jpeg artifact: REAL
The second one with the man leaning back looking like he was sitting in a park bench: His opinion: FAKED

So what it boils down to why would some pictures be real and some be faked.....I believe my husband over some stranger any day of the week.....

edit on 26-12-2011 by Starwise because: (no reason given)

Fine, I'm not about trying to prove myself right, only discover the truth. If your husband is able, I for one would appreciate a post that demonstrates how he decided the image was genuine.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


O.K. Dave....

I did some digging on that picture you posted..

NOTE: It has been proven that this picture was not of anyone from 911, but rather a Russian man who was hit by a truck.

It's true, If you follow the links in here..
letsrollforums.com...

They will take you to a Russian traffick accident page with the pictures of the accident on them.
letsrollforums.com...
scroll dowd to post # 5

Also noted..There is snow in the cracks of the street and there is a glove on the hand holding up the sheet..

Shoes and pant's you see on those officers are Russian issue..

As for the jumpers OP..not really sure if we will ever know the truth

Originally posted by septic

Originally posted by Helmkat
I'm not sure what happens to Human memory over time. As a species we have a very disturbing ability to take facts of the past and suddenly call these facts into doubt. Sort of a strange "I wasn't there, didn't see it with my own eyes, it must be fake". People jumped, it happened, if your mind cannot deal with the horror, I am sorry.

This thread reminds me in a way of holocaust deniers.

Hoboy, now you're just reading from the manual, aren't you?

Glittering Generalities. Glittering generalities are intensely emotionally appealing words so closely associated with highly valued concepts and beliefs that they carry conviction without supporting information or reason. They appeal to such emotions as love of country, home; desire for peace, freedom, glory, honor, etc. They ask for approval without examination of the reason. Though the words and phrases are vague and suggest different things to different people, their connotation is always favorable: "The concepts and programs of the propagandist are always good, desirable, virtuous." Generalities may gain or lose effectiveness with changes in conditions. They must, therefore, be responsive to current conditions. Phrases which called up pleasant associations at one time may evoke unpleasant or unfavorable connotations at another, particularly if their frame of reference has been altered.

www.constitution.org...

Nice excerpt. now how in any way does that offer to retaliate to Helmkat's post? I know people like you. People who take the red pill and cannot believe the reality they are seeing -- so much so that they believe that what they are seeing is as fake as the fake reality.

It's fun to take excerpts from propaganda websites and make yourself feel as though you're waking up the masses, but dear, this isn't any thing anyone needs to wake up to.

Glittering generalities are intensely emotionally appealing words so closely associated with highly valued concepts and beliefs that they carry conviction without supporting information or reason. They appeal to such emotions as love of country, home; desire for peace, freedom, glory, honor, etc.

It would make sense to use that quote if Helmkat was saying something like " Let's go to war with Iran because the government says to do it if we love our country, and we're patriots" but that's isn't what was said, now was it? So I've shown you and anyone who just read that you just pulled an excerpt from a conspiracy website for 2 reasons: (1)you liked how it sounded and since it is from an ant-propaganda site you decided to use it. Hey! That sounds like the exceprt itself was a Glittering Generality! and (2) you are mad at those who question your conspiracy theory and have begun to derationalize all that would be good retaliation.

Originally posted by pavil
reply to post by septic

 

I was not there, but I did see the PBS ( I think) special on it. It followed the French Film crew that videoed the first plane strike to the WTC with the Fire Truck it was with. The crew made it into the Lobby of one of the towers. You could hear "thuds" hitting the top of the Lobby and the look on the fireman's faces left no doubt in my mind that they thought they were bodies impacting from jumpers. I still remember how the fireman looked at each other when they heard those sounds........really bad foreboding.

As I've said before, Leslie Raphael proved the entire film you refer to is pure propaganda, and he names names.

From page two:

Originally posted by septic

Yeah, the "thumps" are my point. The sound drums up that gut-wrenching horror. From Leslie Raphael:

26. Yet another staged scene : top left (43:32), Pfeifer giving a sly look to his left, as if waiting for a prompt, his aide Ed Fahey on the right of the picture, fiddling with something out of shot, and between them in the centre, Mike Hurley, Director of Fire Safety at the WTC, staring at something in the distance (the shot opens with a close-up of him doing it, then widens out). Top right (43:33), Pfeifer has apparently been told to look down at his radio — as Fahey is already doing, perhaps. Bottom left (43:33), the start of their head movement as they allegedly react to the crash of someone hitting the ground outside the building, after falling or jumping from the upper floors. Bottom right (43:33), their final position — looking in three different directions — different from each other (compare picture 8b, another fake reaction shot), and different from where each was looking in the first frame — before the camera swings left (west) towards the front of the building. Hurley switches from east to west, Pfeifer from downwards to south-westwards and Fahey from down to south-eastwards.

Something like 200 people were killed that way at the North Tower between 8.46 and 10.28, an average of one every 30 seconds : are we really supposed to believe this would be the reaction of people in the lobby every time they heard that sound ? That 200 times, they would instinctively jump and look around them, to see where the noise was coming from ? The head movement is obviously deliberate and scripted : the crash is arranged, and so is their reaction, down to different directions designed to create artificial suspense.

Source

Here's a thread that really digs into the question.

I have 2 questions about the WTC jumpers

Originally posted by septic
Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by septic

 

One of the ways propagandists control you is through the use of fear.

Yah, like you. I been debating with you on another 911 thread about structure and collapse and I am amazed at how insistent you are about how "everything is faked". Here you have surpassed yourself with this video. Shows how little understanding you have about engineering or cameras even. This "psyops" witch is fooling you with her "blown up" photos? I'm done with you Septic. Cut your 911 eye out, it's septic and will go gangrenous if you don't act quick.

Interesting story.

The video was a quick example, and had you read the thread you would see many others linked as well. I repeatedly link to the Raphael piece, but none of the ATS "real" truthers or true OSers will touch it.

Yes, I'm the one who's the insistent one, but then unlike you, the evidence I bring gives me a certain confidence that might seem insistent to one who hasn't done the homework, at least judging by the volume of nasty responses to my thread.

Yah, I'm not the only one. Time for you to reel it in junior. Nobody is buying it anymore. Go play on YouTube.

This isn't a debate at all. This is more of an analysis on the OP's mental state. Mod, I am not trying to be intentionally rude, but I seriously think the OP has some problems. This isn't as bad as that rush of "9/11 was media fakery" threads not too long ago, and I pray that it does not become like that.

Not to worry. Just book mark Septic as one of the Truthers that keeps coming with "911 is fake".

reply to post by mr10k

Nice excerpt. now how in any way does that offer to retaliate to Helmkat's post?

You don't think the comparing me to a holocaust denier was in any way using:

...intensely emotionally appealing words so closely associated with highly valued concepts and beliefs that they carry conviction without supporting information or reason.

?

I know people like you. People who take the red pill and cannot believe the reality they are seeing -- so much so that they believe that what they are seeing is as fake as the fake reality.

Project much?

reply to post by septic


WHy make a thread with a question as a title if you already have your mind made up as to the answer?

Let me be forward and ask you if you were an eye witness that day?

Did you actually see with your own eyes the tragedy of that day unfold?

Originally posted by jimnuggits
reply to post by septic

 

WHy make a thread with a question as a title if you already have your mind made up as to the answer?

Let me be forward and ask you if you were an eye witness that day?

Did you actually see with your own eyes the tragedy of that day unfold?

Why respond to this thread if you've already made up your mind as to the answer?

Are you able to make the fraudulent photographs genuine?