Keystone Pipeline Bill Passes

reply to post by TheOneElectric


I agree with your price at the pump thinking. After watching gas prices over the last few years, i've concluded it has absolutely nothing to do with supply, demand, or regional politics, and everything to do with 'what the market will bear'.. The oil giants had record profits in the history of any corp when the price per barrel was to blame for the high prices.

its lowering to prevent us from taking to the streets perhaps.

I haven't noticed a thread on ATS about it, but also in this package is a 2 month reprieve for another job killer; it postpones a 27% decrease in Medicare payments to physicians, that was set to begin January 1. (Some of that elderly healthcare rationing that wasn't)

reply to post by AzureSky


Give me a break already. Every day the process' for oil-sands products are improved because it is in the oil companies best interest to do so. If nobody buys the oil there is no incentive to clean up the process.
Plus it doesn't really matter anyway if the US buys it, as China is very ready to take in that surplus. Using your own logic, Alberta still gets shafted, so no need to make the yanks feel guilty about it, the oil companies are not going to stop production if the US doesn't buy.

reply to post by AzureSky


I think its a bogus argument, the ecosystem one, but i get what your saying with the environment. We have the ability to restore what we damage and it should be enforced not buried.

i also dont understand the rage against oil vs. the earth.....it's produced by the earth.

Originally posted by palg1
reply to post by AzureSky

 

Give me a break already. Every day the process' for oil-sands products are improved because it is in the oil companies best interest to do so. If nobody buys the oil there is no incentive to clean up the process.
Plus it doesn't really matter anyway if the US buys it, as China is very ready to take in that surplus. Using your own logic, Alberta still gets shafted, so no need to make the yanks feel guilty about it, the oil companies are not going to stop production if the US doesn't buy.

edit on 23-12-2011 by palg1 because: I apologize for the babbling discourse I'm just really tired right now....

Im not, im merely pointing out the facts about it. Plus.
We have the land and the resources to grow hemp and turn it into fuel, which would yield more environmentally friendly ways of doing it. No matter how you slice it, its still going to be devastating. I dont care if its going to chine or the US or into space. The damage is already done and its only going to get worse.

Hempfacts.org

Farming 6% of the continental U.S. acreage with biomass crops would provide all of America's energy needs. 1
Hemp is Earth's number-one biomass resource; it is capable of producing 10 tons per acre in four months. 1
Biomass can be converted to methane, methanol, or gasoline at a cost comparable to petroleum, and hemp is much better for the environment. Pyrolysis (charcoalizing), or biochemical composting are two methods of turning hemp into fuel.2
Hemp can produce 10 times more methanol than corn.
Hemp fuel burns clean. Petroleum causes acid rain due to sulfur pollution.
The use of hemp fuel does not contribute to global warming.

The point is, we have much better ways of making fuel than this disaster. As you can see above. Hemp would revolutionize the way we do things.

Originally posted by palg1Plus it doesn't really matter anyway if the US buys it, as China is very ready to take in that surplus.

IMHO.

Even if the Keystone gets built, China will soon be requiring their own pipeline going from the tar sands west over to Prince Rupert.

It won't surprise me to see this pipeline being sought after and being constructed even way before Keystone is completed. As well, with the amount the Chinese will throw at this work, this pipeline may be completed before Keystone is...

No gas pump miracles, no great economic turn around of job creation. Sure, there will be SOME jobs created, but not this great number being spun by supporters of the pipeline.

Bottom line: Large corporations want to make more money, so they want the pipeline built (read oil money). So, the find an "independent" (who actually works for them) who can look at the project and say, "it won't hurt the environment." Of course, the lobbyists are hard at work in D.C, buying politicians to approve the pipeline at the detriment of the environment (threatening water supplies, wildlife, and the environment). These politicians (largely Republicans) then use the political ploy "See, the Democrats don't care about the average worker! They don't want to create jobs!" in an effort to push the pipeline through and tack it onto the middle class tax cuts. They could care less about the jobs, they just want the $ and the kickback from helping their corporate friends make more money. After all, they will get their lobby money, they work for their friends (who gave them a slice of it) who will make a large profit and more than likely not pay taxes on it. Business as usual.

It's all about money (congressional and corporate) and it's all about GREED, under the guise of job creation and gas prices and to the detriment of the environment.

Not to mention these jerks holding alternative sources of energy hostage while pushing oil.

Kinda like the fracking Company who poisoned the community's water supplies and then decided to stop bringing in fresh water.

But no, "They don't care 'bout jobs!"

Originally posted by AzureSkyThe point is, we have much better ways of making fuel than this disaster. As you can see above. Hemp would revolutionize the way we do things.

Although I agree, hemp likely cannot ever be successfully utilized in this fashion until you come up with a way for governments to fully control and tax this product; same for corporations to control and profit from this product.

Originally posted by IronDogg

Originally posted by AzureSkyThe point is, we have much better ways of making fuel than this disaster. As you can see above. Hemp would revolutionize the way we do things.

Although I agree, hemp likely cannot ever be successfully utilized in this fashion until you come up with a way for governments to fully control and tax this product; same for corporations to control and profit from this product.

The only reason it isn't being used is because it is a threat to the profit of several industries, not just the oil industry. Its no different than growing WHEAT or soybeans(which hemp can replace btw without the use of GMO roundup or pesticides).
The corporations can eat it for all i care, the hemp industry doesn't get government subsidies or tax breaks. Oil companies do. Its all about money my friend. And hemp is a catalyst for them not making as much money. Hence why its not being used.

I may be wrong, but isn't the only thing holding up progress on the Keystone project a possible re-route around the Ogallala Aquifer?

A spill on that might have a seriously negative impact for America.

Originally posted by AzureSky
Here is a picture



You can see these thick black 'tailing ponds' from space.
Not to mention evironmental scientists are not allowed to speak about climate change
Source

Not to mention the environmental spending cuts: Source

Its not good. It creates jobs. But they are not worth the destruction it is going to cause to everything around it, and beyond. That is going to seep into the earth and destroy it. The forsts will die. Everything in the water will die. Drinking water will be tainted (if it already hasnt been). And so on.

edit on 23/12/11 by AzureSky because: (no reason given)

First the tailing ponds from space.

You can't see them without a telescopic lense and a very high resolution camera. That is a fact.

How do we know this? The nearest large urban centre (Edmonton), which is significantly larger than the tailing ponds, is not visible from space. Only the lights at night are visible, and the tailing ponds have almost no lights.

Second, muzzling of environmental scientists. Um you have provided a federal example which has zero say in a provincial issue. The Alberta government has even provided funding for documentaries against the oil sands btw, much to the average Albertan's dismay. (The two documentaries are 'Dirty Oil' and 'Tipping Point: The Age of the Oil Sands')

Third, environmental spending cuts...once again you have posted a federal issue that does not pertain to the provincially run and decided oil sands.

If you wish to debate the merits (for or against) the oil sands, at least use legitimate discussion points.

I don't know about some of these posts. After reading a few of them I wouldn't actually mind if the elitists' did remove a few of these blights from society. However, these people who regurgitate everything they hear as pure "fact" are exactly who will be left as drone bees. 
After barely finishing high school, as I had a hard time with teachers forcing their ideologies on me, instead of teaching us ways to think creatively and for ourselves, I went to work up north. I have worked on and off with Ledcor since I was 18. My last job I worked for ledcor special projects at YVR, the international airport for Vancouver, just before the olympics doing a five story add-on. I walked out on that job as I was suppose to put in material improperly and not according to engineering code. This was for an earlier completion date and bigger bonus, and not in conjunction with my morals as it was tax payer funds none the least. 
Working up north I worked on the largest steam injection pipeline in the world on the cold lake weapon range, primarily around foster creek. There were 6 different diameter lines, the largest was the steam line at 3.2mm walled, 36" diameter, it ran 14,000psi steam from a plant to the injection sites. It was 100% x-ray because of the pressure involved, a single pin size hole if walked by would cut a man in half and coteries him at the same time. I worked on that project until they wanted me to kick off another pipeline project in Christina lake AB not BC, it came with a healthy raise and I didn't have to be on a airforce weapons range. (This was in 2006, too many friendly fire reports from NATO airforces in Iraq) 
At Christina lake it was 20 km of 8" and 16" underground and 4 km of 5 lines above ground for steam injection again. The 8" underground pipe was a salt emulsion line with a 30% x-ray rate. The pipe was coated on the inside with an epoxy and each joint was connected with a coupler requiring two welds to make the connection. At that 30% x-ray rate over a 4km section we had six cut outs, meaning the welds didn't pass inspection. In one km of pipeline there are roughly 160 joints of pipe, so for 20km there is 3,200 joints. For an average km there would be 18-20 joints that would have not passed inspection. About 1/3 of those are noticed and addressed. That would leave about 300 possible connections that will result in failure. These pipes being underground means that unless a major eruption occurs failure of the line can go unnoticed. There would not be a significant enough loss of pressure for the sensors to notice. 
To give you an idea of the scale of these projects, the Christina lake camp consisted of 220 personal. That's cooks, camp custodians, laborers, welders, accountants, operators, superintendents and first aid. Our operating budget was $250,000 a day. Both pipeline jobs were contracted to encana and designated cost plus. Meaning if we were to go over our budget that was presented in the bid, that encana would cover any other costs.
Money to these companies is like air to us, it is readily available to them and they use it as uncontiously as a breath. I worked in a pipeline crossing on 23rd and gateway, right in the south core of Edmonton. They were putting in a overpass and needed to move the lines that ran to the Alta gas plant. A directional driller was asked to work 16 hours to complete a line that was being pulled or (reamed) through the whole. The driller mad at having to stay late stopped spinning the drill rod while reaming at the 1/3 mark. This resulted in a snapped drill rod, as spinning it while pulling the pipe through the hole reduces tension and drag. We had to hook on to the other 2/3rds sticking out on the far side with all our track equipment (4 side booms, 3 d9 cats, and 4 350 excavators) and pull the pipe back out. This drilling company then needs to re-drill and ream the pipe at a tune of about $1,000,000 at Altas expense. 
We will not be seeing lower prices at the pump. Anyone who dared to challenge when they were told pump prices reflect stock prices and not supply/reserves and demand will know this. Also just look at the price of diesel. It has doubled since the 4th quater of 2006. It is even more expensive then gas yet is cheaper to produce. Anyone who is American and says that XL will alleviate their countries rely on foreign oil, Canadian oil is still foreign to your country. There doesn't need to be an ocean between us to make us foreign. After being once in fort mcmurray I never forget the putrid smell and destroyed landscape. There are way better alternatives then crude oil for energy. 

PS. So far the conclusion I can see to lower gas prices is a fuel war. Instead of this joke of boycotting gas stations on a specific day North Americans need to boycot a specific company for an extended period of time ie. BP Or Shell. Cause a company to loose substanial losses and they will comply to the market. (We are the market) Sorry for spelling/grammar on my phone :s

Beware of biofuels.

They are not a be all and end all replacement for oil based gasoline.

At first glance they may be comparable, but what many seem to forget is the energy density.

Hemp is converted to methanol fuel.

Methanol fuel has an energy density of 21.3 MJ/kg (approx 46% that of gasoline).

Methanol is still a carbon based fuel source.

So imagine...burning twice as much to save on nitrogen base and sulfate base pollutants, while releasing twice as much carbon based pollutants.

reply to post by palg1


Oil companies will only invest as little as they can to keep the environmentalist off their back and keep their public relations up. Anyone who has worked on rigs or has friends that do know just how much these companies care for the well being of their employees little loan the populace. It is very common for rigs to not document injuries as longer incident free days comes with larger rig bonuses. Don't be fooled, the majority of people are driven by money and selfishness. Just watch peoples manners behind the wheel of a vehicle. In their life you become an inconvience. However, I do notice that there are still good people out there, just their numbers are declining.

reply to post by IronDogg


They wouldn't have to fully control and tax hemp. They would simply tax you on the net income of your production. It would be no different then a orchardist or farmer harvesting their product. They might try to over step their power in regulating the stipulations of herbicide and pesticide use as they do with all aspects of farming. I grew up on a cherry orchard and we were one pesticide away from being certified organic. However we were forced to spray for cherry fruit fly. If agriculture bc came in and found fly larva they had the power to set us back eight years by removing all our cherry trees.

The pipeline is a horrible idea, and an effort to rush it through on the federal level is a waste of time. It took three years to approve the path it was on. However, it went right through the Ogallala aquifer, which faced huge public opposition. So now they have to plan a different route...which may take up to a year or more.

Sure, it'll create jobs...a year from now. The fuel it moves won't stay here in America, it'll go straight to China and Europe, we'll get whatever's left over. Not to mention the overall environmental impact just trying to extract the oil is going to do.

It's disasterous for the Earth, it's bad for America but it's great for multi-billion dollar multi-national oil corporations.

reply to post by links234


They had to plan for 3 separate routes right from the beginning.

TransCanada offered one of the reserve routes almost immediately after Obama made the delay press release.

Edit to add:
I always assume this is common knowledge, forget that I am at an international site.

It is required to provide multiple pathways for proposed infrastructure in Canada. The minimum is 3. I don't know if TransCanada has more than 3, but they will have at least 3.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by TheOneElectric

 

I don't expect gas prices to drop, but any time jobs can be created, it's a good thing.

"any time a jobs can be created, it's a good thing" Who cares what could happen when you put a oil pipeline right above one of the biggest aquifer in the US, long as 20k people can have a job for a year or two.

I don't see it making gas prices cheaper, they might lower it a bit to say see it did lower prices then just jack the price back up.

Originally posted by peck420
They had to plan for 3 separate routes right from the beginning.

TransCanada offered one of the reserve routes almost immediately after Obama made the delay press release.

I hadn't heard that. The only alternate route that was mentioned by The Harper Government after the Obama hold-up, afaik, was the one to Kitimat BC, which would direct crude to the Pacific and China. I know that line has been discussed for some time now.

About that Ogallala aquifer... it's quite large, both in width and length:



Any idea how they were proposing the other two routes?

Good thing how do people figure?

Any construction job is going to be union all construction jobs in this country are unions which mean it will cost 5 times and much and and take 5 times as long to completion.

Sorry to burst bubbles here but the instant gratification meaning prices at the pump will be lowered wont happen and it is going to take years for it ever to be up and running.

And of course that is if the eco terrorists don't sabatage and protest the thing you know that pinch everyone feels at the pump everytime they fill up?

Thank the treehuggers and green legistation and the fact that not one new oil refinery or other means of production have opened up which is why this nation depends on Canada and other Foreign sources for our energy needs.

The keystone is not the answer to this nations energy problems its green legislation and the epa and the clean air act and a myriad of other stupidity.

Which brings up the last point of this post there are around 5 major oil companies who drill the majority of their assets offshore which means the Us Federal Government can't touch any profit they make.

And i am sure someone is going to cry about oil subsidies but take a good look at the subsidies that Americans get from free food free homes free healthcare and the free retirement plans that end up totalling over 100 trillion in promises made that can never be paid for.,

Not even if you took every cent of big oil profits
Not even if you took every cent of the rich.

When you have people who are jobless that means they are homeless as well because the only thing that has lifted people out of poverty is a job.

The only thing the Government and their social and green engineering does is keep them in poverty and keeps them over paying at the pump.

Obama postponed this decision to make it a political football most likely to make it and election issue to blame the right so they can make it like the Democrats "care".

if they diid care there would have been no discussion it would have already been done and being built.