Will the disturbing practice of hazing ever be a thing of the past?

reply to post by jibeho


Thanks for commenting. I have no problem with practical jokes. It's physical brutality, coersion, and humiliation that need to come to an end.

reply to post by Afterthought


I certainly understand the the physical portion of the hazing practice. Many years ago I was on the receiving end and the giving end during my days in a fraternity and on the rugby field in college. We knew our limits then and we were not prone to the Youtube Euphoria that is plaguing the nation now. (it didn't exist then) In years since then the crackdown on hazing has gotten quite swift across most college campuses. I had friends that played hockey and wrestled and they can all share similar stories as can the girls that I knew on field hockey team. None if hit scarred me for life in fact it just brought us all closer in the end. Much like in the Military during Basic Training and advanced training.

Unfortunately, some people will always take things to far and then its up to the others to self police when enough is enough. For some reason the standard of acceptable behavior has certainly slipped into a whole new area of disturbing compared to when I was young.

I understand your point. But bullying brutality is different from hazing in my eyes. Hazing technically ends with a rite of passage within a tight knit organization. Bullying hunts people down 24/7 from school to playground to twitter and facebook often without reason or cause.

reply to post by binkbonk


well said. I was in a fraternity and the bonds formed as a result of the pledging period are unbreakable. I know that I have 25 guys who would walk with me into any mess and that there'd be a few hundred more behind backing us up. Granted, we were not hazed at all. We didn't have to do anything that seemed awful at the time but, in the end, brought a group of strangers together in a manner only found with brothers and friends from birth.

We were not made fun of or embarrassed, were not forced to do things with the intention of breaking us down, we were not made to do overly physical activities or insanely ridiculous tasks for the sake of bringing us together.

I chose to wear that halter top and mini skirt.

reply to post by Crakeur

I chose to wear that halter top and mini skirt.

That's what I'm talking about. The funny stuff that doesn't harm anyone. There's nothing wrong with having someone do something silly or humorous. It's all in good fun to see if someone can hang and keep the general spirit of good times.

What does need to end?
The standing in a 50 degree basement naked drinking two gallons of water while the other members play cards and make fun of you.
The beat downs that only street gangs are known for as they "jump" members in.
The coersion to drink more alcohol than an elephant could handle.
Requiring newbies to humiliate themselves in a sexual manner.

Like you stated, there's nothing wrong with some good old fashioned fun, but certain people insist on pushing the envelope. These people don't deserve any sort of friendship or acceptance in my eyes.

Allow me reframe this conversation....

What purpose does hazing serve?

What sucessful organizations use hazing?

What are there hazing procedures?

Is there such a thing as bad hazing?

Good hazing?

As for the garbage your spewing. Recheck the incidents, hazing is not the act that caused the deaths... They all occured during hazing ...

Lets refer to the band incident... Assualt leading to murder is not hazing.. Its assualt and murder. Well meaning morans have tried to change the hazing period with community service and other things. All it suceeded in doing was drive it unnderground with zero monitoring.

I would love to hear how you would change it?

As for the boyfriend thing.. A better test... Try introducing him to your mother and then a frind who is hotter then you. You will be able to judge honestly from there. The only other test is to find out about his reletionship with his mother.

If it is temporary fun... Try a date at the gym... Get him on the elipticals and treadmills. Look for enduramce

reply to post by jibeho


Can I flag your response. It is the best answer yet. I hope you get applause for it.

You summed up the whole point in less three paragraphs. Covering both sides...

reply to post by ripcontrol


The conversation does not need restructured. For those who have read the thread from the beginning and all articles posted, a thorough understanding is reached. Hazing can be violent and sexual in nature. Ignoring this fact is pure ignorance.

Well meaning morans have tried to change the hazing period with community service and other things.

Morons? You sound like you're a tough guy. Can you provide actual cited examples of this? I've never heard of any group that had people doing community service instead of Hell Week.

For the record, I attended a small private college. There weren't any "party" frats or organizations, but they still had Hell Week where the newbies were required to dress funny (as mentioned above) or to do funny skits in front of the classroom buildings. These activities are all in good fun and should be as far as this stuff goes, but there is a much darker side to it. I'm sorry you think that only morons are against hazing.

Also, please keep your dating advice. I was being sarcastic when I mentioned hazing potential boyfriends.

hazing doesn't have to be harmful but there's always a few guys (or gals) who have the twisted desire to push the new crew harder than they were pushed and that can often lead to disastrous situations.

we had an alcohol related incident one semester that was a direct result of an initiation ritual. I wasn't there that night so I don't know the logistics but I did participate in 3 other nights just like that one. Once as a pledge, twice as an active in the fraternity, and I can only say that 99% of the members of the fraternity we pushing the pledges to drink (it was a fun game of drinking golf) with an eye towards their safety at all times. We rigged "holes" when we knew one of the pledges was getting ugly and, on at least twice, I grabbed a pledge and made him puke in the bathroom to get the alcohol out of his stomach.

No doubt there was some pointless crap we were forced to do that served no purpose other than to let one of the actives, usually a sophomore, make us aware of their so called power.

My fraternity wasn't that bad compared to others. I know one guy from freshman year who was always covered in bruises and he confessed to eating puke, his own, and then someone else's, one night. They would throw up on each other all the time. Personally, I'd have dropped out at the first sign of violence.

I'd say that, for the most part, hazing rituals serve a purpose and, for the most part, they are more or less harmelss.

I'd also say that the asian guy who killed himself wasn't just being run through the usual hazing routines. It sounded like he was being abused because he wasn't liked very much by the rest of his platoon.

reply to post by Crakeur


Yes, hazing doesn't have to be malicious or violent.

I think that the current members should have the guts to stand up against those who want to do things like you mentioned (beatings, forced to drink too much, eating vomit) to new members. If someone suggests any kind of illegal or unhealthy forms of hazing, they should be stripped of their membership no matter how high up in the ranks they are. These types of problems need to be addressed directly from the inside. If the person doesn't leave, then it should go to the next level until someone listens. These types of people don't deserve anything as far as I'm concerned.

reply to post by Afterthought


agreed. unfortunately, in those situations where someone is being pushed too far, it's always one where standing up becomes difficult because you need to show solidarity and brotherhood and you don't want to the pledges to see the argument and you definitely don't want to castrate an active in front of them.

Little story. My first or second week of pledging, I get a call from a sophomore who, along with his roommate, simply didn't like me. Not sure why since I didn't steal the roommate's girlfriend until later in the semester but, anyway, I get a call on a friday night to head over to the house with two bottles of K&B vodka. That's some low grade vodka that most bars wouldn't put in the well. I had plans to go with a friend (also called in for the night) and two girls so I called our pledge master and explained that we had dates (not really) and that it would really suck if this guy was going to hinder our chances with the ladies. He agreed and said that it wasn' t right what he was doing but, since he was an active, and I was a pledge, he couldn't overrule the guys and I couldn't just skip out. He told me to pick up two bottles of absolut instead, head over there dressed up for our date and offer the vodka as a peace offering.

The sophomore wasn't thrilled but he also knew that, if word got out that he ran interference on us, he'd look like a jerk. End result, he owned me for a few weeks later on but we figured it out.

In today's crueler world, I'd have been beaten, urinated on, and left for dead in a dark alley some where.

reply to post by Crakeur


Good story and thanks for sharing.
Your post's conclusion is too true.

In today's crueler world, I'd have been beaten, urinated on, and left for dead in a dark alley some where.

How have we as a species managed to become so mean and brutal? It's as if people don't have a conscience anymore. Even the most dangerous animals fighting for territory/rank aren't as ruthless.
I know that you can't blame just one thing. It's a combination of things. It's just that it's irreversible at this point and to get things back to where they even resemble what used to be is such an uphill battle.

reply to post by Afterthought


I blame the pet rock but that's just me. I think it all stems from that simple, inoccuous toy. so silly, so inane and pointless and, from it, young boys first learned to abuse.

Jimmy gets a pet rock from joe for his birthday. Jimmy plays with it for a bit, realizes he's playing with a rock, he feels silly. Then he realizes he must look silly, talking to a rock, treating it as if it were a living pet. He secretly starts to tell his pet rock that fat joe is a loser because he's fat and he should never have been his friend and the next time jimmy sees poor joe, who is a bit overweight but meant well when he got the rock for jimmy, he throws that pet rock at his head and shouts "thanks for nothing fat boy" and the first case of cruel bullying was born. Suddenly, pet rock owners everywhere started abusing those that gave them the gift, all in retaliaton for what was perceived to be a gift aimed towards a dolt, a lifeless pet that even a total moron couldn't kill.

from there, slinky owners and troll owners rebelled for similar reasons and, before you know it, kids are posting that crakeur's a ho who digs twinkies dipped in turtle poop (not true, I swear) and they leave flaming bags of elephant snot on my door and they throw things at me as I walk to school and it hurts to leave the house and, oh, damn, where was I?


oh, yeah, I blame the pet rock.


there is no one reason. I think that today's kids are forced to mature faster and that translates into behavioral patterns that they are ill equipped to handle. they have sex earlier than kids did when I was their age. they try drugs and alcohol at a younger age and they get involved with far worse things than we did (well, they did because I was pretty bad but I was an abberation).

kids watch shows with teen pregnancies, drugs and alcohol, they listen to music that sends a bad message (kesha) etc. They don't know how to properly process these things. They find themselves in situations they shouldn't be in and they don't have the proper tools for handling those situations.

reply to post by Crakeur


I never had a pet rock.
I did enjoy your theory though. Very unique!

I've thought about blaming Dr. Spock and his teachings about time outs as acceptable punishments for kids instead of spankings, but I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. Kids these days don't even have any respect for their parents let alone themselves and their peers. Respecting yourself goes a long way and often determines how we treat others. You mentioned the music angle and I agree wholeheartedly with you. Lyrics these days make disrespecting yourself seem cool. If you're not having group sex and shoving snow up your nose, you just aren't cool. I'm so glad I grew up prior to the internet and aweful musical lyrics. We were taught to have respect for ourselves and to respect our elders. I've always had a bit of an aversion to authority, but my worst fear as a child was disappointing my parents. Nowadays, kids just don't seem to care and they grow up to be ten times worse.

I will agree that kids are pushed to grow up faster, but this appears to be causing their maturity levels to become stunted or snuffed out all together. Aging and maturity do not go hand in hand, or so I've noticed.

reply to post by tom.farnhill

so you condone bullying of a person so he can prove that he is strong enough to join your little group

I never said bullying...

Hazing and bullying are two different things..

I do not tolerate bullies

I define a bully as someone who is mean, rude, crude consistently for no purpose other then personal satisfaction.

Their efforts are in no way part of training and result in damage via non-training exercise...



@after thought

you avoided the questions

They are legitimate questions, I asked in fair play. I am always curios how someone thinks... is this rudeness in humor... to be mean and teach me a lesson... just curious

Please do NOT get rude for us having two different philosophies... I assume you are a kind and decent person who has no...never mind.. you have set your mind as it is towards a non-personal growth mindset.

I responded in good humor over the dating advice... (Moran... cartoons from childhood used this... my apologies for the mis-statements)

Hazing wiki

Psychology, purpose, and role

Hazing supposedly serves a deliberate purpose, of building solidarity. Psychologist Robert Cialdini uses the framework of consistency and commitment to explain the phenomenon of hazing, and the vigor and zeal to which practitioners of hazing persist in and defend these activities even when they are made illegal.[20] Cialdini cites a 1959 study in which the researchers observed that "persons who go through a great deal of trouble or pain to attain something tend to value it more highly than persons who attain the same thing with a minimum of effort."[21]

In his book he describes the situations I am referring to...Where some of the studies are about how efforts to curb the more heinous practices are failure... Service week last for short time periods then they go underground..


I asked you directly if you had a suggestion to improve the methods that are used to bring that valuing ....



Now since I have been accused of approving these methods, let me add some of my own experiences...

Screw the bullying aspect...

their narcissistic efforts to hide said behavior... (I found more of it in the 'corporate' world then in the military ) While on hold, I was in the chaps office for a little bit of time... I watched the rapist try and use their behaviors post incident as training...

He had one not realize I was in the chaplains office,s brag to me about it... when he gets out of the brig he has to face San Diego's finest who also have a copy of the tapes with him bragging. (funny story...us military actually lost the tapes they got... SDPD provided them with copies of their copies.. I honestly have no clue where those extras came from)

I have found all said actual behavior unacceptable...

You forgot the intimidation factors....

You forgot stalking...

You forgot to mention harassment...

You forgot the victims who families listen to the sociopaths and not the victims...

You forgot the email accounts that get hacked....

Worst of all is that when the so called people who are their to help... they laugh... You should really think hard about how they respond to sexual harassment when a male reports it... ( a snicker every time I have witnessed... it astounds me on the Hypocrisy )

I have also seen the other side of it... I watched a person I did not like get accused of the above... unfortunately they where innocent... I watched for a little bit ( i really didnt like the person) but I did say something in time...


As for your issue with my statements... It has a time and a place... During training... or during initial group formation... New members are being trained in the ways of the group...

After that...no place that I know of...

Did you ever watch Coach Carter?

I take it you consider what he did to the kid who wanted back in as hazing...

Curios

Nevermind.

reply to post by Afterthought


the best statement you have made to date that I agree with...

I also agree with blaming the pet rock...


however more we disagree I do have to give you this. I just watch someone change there position from pro-abortion to anti abortion, from pro welfare to anti welfare, and from pro corporate to anti corporate in the space of less then ten minutes...

Its one of the judges running for office in texas... It made me more sick then anything.


At least you believe in what you are saying, even though I disagree and think it is an over-generalization, you are not corrupt.

I found this and thought I would post it here...

Scary Guy- anti bullying

Scary, as he likes to be called, delivers a shock-and-awe approach. Speaking before a packed auditorium of schoolchildren in Austin, Minnesota, he barfs up apples, groans and rubs his ink-stained belly and intentionally pokes fun at the shortest middle-schooler, the bald PE teacher and the "geek in the wheelchair." He explains he's demonstrating classic bullying behavior to make kids aware of the problem.

I can acknowledge that you are trying to bring more attention to bullying... You feel hazing is is bullying where as I disagree, at least hopefully some people here will read what we are arguing about and not allow things to pass from group bonding to bullying and sadomasochistic actions.

reply to post by ripcontrol

I can acknowledge that you are trying to bring more attention to bullying... You feel hazing is is bullying where as I disagree, at least hopefully some people here will read what we are arguing about and not allow things to pass from group bonding to bullying and sadomasochistic actions.

For your words above and your courage to meet me in the median to shake hands, thank you, thank you, thank you!

You've eloquently explained exactly how things have morphed and escalated over the years and I appreciate your viewpoint. I wish more people could come to the understanding described above. We can agree to disagree and still respect each other's views.

I'm glad we can both agree that hazing is becoming a sadistic practice. I'm happy to have someone of your calibre and intelligence to stand beside me as I try to bring awareness to this topic.

Thank you, my friend, and be well.

Hazing will never die. It's fun and very entertaining to see people in pain, to most people anyway. It's only human nature to enjoy seeing people in pain.

I wish it would end and people realize that it doesn't have to be that way.

And I'm sorry but I just can't believe it has a useful purpose. You can determine who the weakest link without causing them pain and suffering through a battery of questioning. Then you should work on that person in order to either help him or her grow stronger or to put him or her in appropriate place where they can meet their interests and be useful and productive members.

I long for the day when society realizes that it's okay to be different and unique and being different and unique is not truly a threat.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone

Hazing will never die. It's fun and very entertaining to see people in pain, to most people anyway. It's only human nature to enjoy seeing people in pain.

I wish it would end and people realize that it doesn't have to be that way.

And I'm sorry but I just can't believe it has a useful purpose.

I agree. We have a long way to go until sadistic hazing is erradicated.

I don't understand why some people enjoy seeing someone in pain. I can't even identify with this mindset whatsoever. Ever since I can remember, if I see a person or animal in pain, I can feel it deep within me. It seems as though humans are losing the gift of empathy. We have become desensitized through media, movies, and war. I don't believe that it's a natural human trait to want to put another being in pain. The fact of the matter is is that there are psychopaths and sociopaths in control of our government, media, social organizations, and the Military Industrial Complex who want nothing more than to reduce us to their level. These types of people are below that of roaches in my opinion and they should be knocked out of power positions where they can't influence and hurt anyone ever again.

Thanks for your thoughts about this topic.