Will the disturbing practice of hazing ever be a thing of the past?

reply to post by Afterthought



Easy way to end it: Take it to Federal Courts via RICO, sentence them to life(each and every one who participated) and sentence the ring leaders to death row.

reply to post by korathin


I like the way you think!

These are the types of low lifes that contribute to this disgusting practice. This bus driver needs to be charged with being an accomplice to murder and made an example of what happens to those who help bullies haze people.

www.orlandosentinel.com...

The driver of a bus on which Florida A&M University drum major Robert Champion was killed in November stood guard while he was being hazed by fellow band members, according to a lawsuit filed today in Orlando by Champion's family.

According to the lawsuit, bus driver Wendy Millette saw Champion vomiting in the parking lot of the Rosen Plaza hotel, then told him to get back on the bus – that he'd be OK. After he boarded the bus again, the lawsuit contends, he was subjected to more hazing.

According the suit, however, the driver of another Fabulous Coach Lines bus saw Millette's bus rocking from side to side and asked her what was happening. Millette then told him to ignore the activity and move on, the suit alleges.

Champion, 26, died as a result of blunt force trauma from the hazing, according to a medical examiner's report.

Chestnut said the allegations against Fabulous Coach Lines were based on eyewitness accounts, including bus drivers and students who went through the hazing ritual that night on Bus C.

According the suit, Champion underwent two different types of hazing. One was called the "hot seat," in which the person being hazed is told to sit down. Then hazers place a pillow case — or some other object that restricts breathing — over the victim's head. Hazers then ask a series of questions. If they're answered correctly, the person being hazed is allowed to breathe. If not, the person is hit and kicked.

I hope she gets prison time. We'll just see how she likes it when she's receiving some first class treatment and nobody comes to help her.

Even though this topic doesn't get much attention, I still feel the need to keep it alive, so here's some updates.
If anything, this thread is a tribute to the ones who have suffered and/or died due to hazing.

Prosecuting the Champion hazing case could be 'nightmare'

articles.orlandosentinel.com...

No one from State Attorney Lawson Lamar's office would discuss details, but legal experts and former prosecutors said the case will be a "nightmare" to sort out because of all of the potential suspects — perhaps 20 or more — who either took part or might have encouraged the brutal beating Champion suffered.

May Champion rest in peace and his attackers brought to justice.
I'll keep an eye on this and post further updates as they come in.

This is just breaking:

9 men indicted in Ohio in fraternity hazing case

hosted.ap.org...

YOUNGSTOWN, Ohio (AP) -- Nine men have been indicted in a fraternity hazing case on charges that they beat two Youngstown State University pledges to the point that they wound up hospitalized.

A Youngstown State sophomore, Breylon Stubbs, 22, told a judge last month that he and a friend, Resean Yancey, 20, were beaten during off-campus rituals for the Kappa Alpha Psi fraternity in January and February. Pledges were beaten with fists, a paddle and a wire clothes hanger, Stubbs said.

I highlighted the word 'rituals' because that is very important to hazing. It's a form of bullying, but the fact that it's done to initiate people into a group makes this an even greater exchange of energy. The bullies/group leaders feel even more powerful as they get their ego boost from hurting those who want to be part of their stupid group/club/lodge/cult.

Steer clear of these types of sociopaths. By joining them, you are giving up your free will and independence. Your mind and body will belong to the group and you will be imprisoned within a "hive mind" mentality as your thoughts and actions are judged by the company you keep. Make no mistake that you will be subject to punishments if you dare go against the status quo within the group even if you are an established initiate.

People that ''need'' to be a part of a group or club are the weak ones and should be weeded out.

reply to post by ALostAlien


I agree that those who need to be part of a group are not leadership material, but I don't agree that they need to be "weeded out".
They simply need to learn that it's OK to be independent by doing their own thing. Being "accepted" is subjective. Even if they survived an initiation, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will gain respect and honor from the others in the group. It may mean that they will always be a target and constantly forced to "prove" themselves. They will be used mostly for entertainment for the group in between rituals.

Apathy is one of the main reasons that hazing has been going strong for all these years.

Here's proof:
"Newly released FAMU documents show parents complained about hazing for years"
www.wftv.com...

ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. — Newly released documents from Florida A&M University show parents complained to school officials for five years about hazing on campus.

Documents from 2007 show one parent emailed the FAMU president multiple times about hazing threats to his son.

The documents show the school did not seriously respond to the complaints until the death of marching band member Robert Champion last November.

The Orange County Sheriff's Office is expected to forward its investigation to the state attorney's office as early as Monday.

I'll post some of the content of the documents once they're made public. The fact that the administrators didn't act on the warnings is a huge red flag. I hope they know that they have blood on their hands since they waited until a student died before taking action.

I realize this isn't a big issue with ATSers, which is a bit disturbing to me, but I'll keep this thread alive for as long as it takes to get this message across.

Hazing is a form of control over one's mind and body. It needs to be stopped. Once people start to steer clear of groups where hazing is done, it will begin to phase out. Hazing isn't cool and those who require newbies to be hazed are sociopathic. You're really just there for their entertainment and nobody needs "friends" like these.

A big thanks to those who have read and replied to this thread.

Originally posted by ALostAlien
People that ''need'' to be a part of a group or club are the weak ones and should be weeded out.

I'm sorry, what? We are talking about a BAND. You can't be in a band by yourself. To equate someone's desire to be in a marching band to weakness is just nuts. All those people who play in symphonic bands must be weak too. People who play soccer must be weak.

Get a grip, team activities are normal in society and they aren't a sign of weakness. Most of these people "need" to be in the group to get college credit for their major or to earn their scholarship.

reply to post by antonia


Nobody is disputing the fact that people enjoy being part of an organized group where talents come together to create something bigger than themselves.

This thread is about social clubs and the need to be accepted by the "cool" people even when the "cool" people insist on hurting you mentally and/or physically to prove that you are one of them and are OK to be their "friend".

reply to post by Afterthought


How do you know this person was wanting to be accepted by cool kids?

reply to post by antonia


I fail to understand your point. Are you condoning hazing? Have you read this thread in its entirety?

This thread is not just about the band members murdering someone. I've listed several cases and incidents of hazing ranging from sports to social clubs to fraternities. The band members using hazing is just what's in the news currently, so many of my updates are about this.

To answer your question, I believe he did want to be accepted by the upper class band members. I also believe that the school administrators should have investigated long before his death.

So, again. If you're a talented enough individual that you made it into one of the most prestigeous bands, sports, etc., that should be good enough for the other band members. What happened to this young man is terrible and I hope those who participated in his death and helped cover it up (like the bus driver) are put away for a long time. I hear hazing is done in prison, too. So, I'm sure it will be interesting for them to be on the receiving end as the guards turn their backs on them and allow it to happen.

Originally posted by Afterthought
reply to post by antonia

 

I fail to understand your point. Are you condoning hazing? Have you read this thread in its entirety?

Yep, I understand it completely. However I only replied to that one comment because it was just stupid. I do not condone hazing of any kind.

To answer your question, I believe he did want to be accepted by the upper class band members. I also believe that the school administrators should have investigated long before his death.

I don't see enough evidence for that, just that he was hazed. Many kids put up with it because they think it's normal and many people in society actually think it's normal as well. I live in a military town, many people here think hazing is a perfectly normal part of joining the military.

reply to post by antonia

Many kids put up with it because they think it's normal and many people in society actually think it's normal as well. I live in a military town, many people here think hazing is a perfectly normal part of joining the military.

Well, it's not normal in my eyes. The fact that it's a normal occurance in the military really says a lot.
It's far from normal to want to (and enjoy) inflict pain and suffering upon another. It would be a step in the right direction if each military town, barracks, etc. had a hazing hotline where it could be reported and the person can remain anonymous. Every campus should also have a hotline. Every state should have a hotline. The ones at the top should not be allowed to ignore this any more. They need to face it head on or go down with the rest of them. Looking the other way while a crime is being committed should be, and usually is, considered to be accessory to the crime and/or involuntary manslaughter.

People need to start standing up and voicing that they aren't going to take it anymore. These people who are being hurt and humiliated are your sons, daughters, granddaughters, grandsons, sisters, brothers, and cousins. Don't wait until they are scarred for life or in the grave before deciding to speak up and out about the psychopaths who enjoy hazing others.

reply to post by Afterthought

People need to start standing up and voicing that they aren't going to take it anymore.

Fine sentiments, but when the person doing the hazing is standing between you and a paycheck then you are likely to just take it. I agree with you in principle, but the reality is most people just put their head down and hope others will get bored and stop because they fear confrontation. Simple telling people not to take it anymore doesn't work. There are anti-hazing rules in the military, but it hasn't stopped the behavior.

reply to post by antonia


The behavior will stop when a person of high ranking is taken down with the hazers. If you knew that Gen. Small Weenie was allowing hazing to happen and didn't report him, you are also part of the problem. There's always someone else who can sign your paychecks. EVERYONE, I don't care who you are, can be replaced. It is part of your job to make sure that those under you are being treated as they should be.

I want to believe that people want things to change by getting psychopaths and sociopaths out of high ranking positions. Good people belong in charge. Good people should be signing paychecks. Good people don't hurt others for their entertainment and egotistical satisfaction. Good people don't allow this sh!t to go on. Good people band together against the bad ones and put them out of commission.

On this one I have to side with the minority


Hazing is neither disturbing or wrong, the misuse of it however is!


It is a form of testing that group of individuals performs on new members to insure they are able to make the cut.

If they make it they have proved themselves and can be trusted. Without it the group suffers and is unable to operate effectively.

Those cases you mentioned lacked one mere thing. The person involved that died should not have been there. In what you see as a lack of kindness I see as an act of stupidity. Those who are that weak should not be allowed to participate. The oversite person should have pulled them as unfit and said, I am sorry you cant participate...

These people were allowed to continue after they showed signs...

BTW, the system of hazing is not something you should frown upon.

Without it you would be speaking german and the world would be short a lot more jews.

I give you Paris Island as the counter... Every Marine who has been through knows they are part of an elite organization, that has only the best. To make it through you have to be strong and emotionally secure... If you graduate from all the hazing you are part of a brotherhood of some of the best..

Also the elite special forces groups of the world also do not sit around the ground singing world peace songs... the whole set of training is hazing...

It strengthens your commitment to the group and the group commitment to you. With out these commitments society would fall apart. In fact perhaps we need some more hazing specifically designed to ensure we function as a society...

The one thing I will give is the definition I was given by an old boss on this... before I went into the military.. however it proved useful...

All this crap belongs to me... When I make a sword, I pay for the steel, the fires and the tongs... I then pay yall to sit there and twist it... I paid for the training of yall in this, and you should be smart enough to see if a piece of metal is good or if it is a piece of crap..

The same goes for those houses my other people are building. If the foreman is not smart enough to separate the bad lumber from the good lumber, well I find a new foreman.

(its called quality control)

The same go with men. Either they can cut it or they cant... Red the trick to success it to be able to separate the bad lumber and metal from the good

Well applying his advice, the problem is that some people should have been pulled from the rites...



Check your numbers... every time they have outlawed hazing, it has failed... they return right back to it....

A wiser policy is simply this.. you want to prevent the deaths...

enforce an earlier culling mechanism... if the rites require say excessive drinking, make everyone get health test.. if some one can not pass them... sorry you cant be a part of of organization...

or lets say for band... if they are sick, sorry you will not be participating... if it is continuous,, kick them out...


(If the driver had been forced through such a program, they would have acted in the groups best interest and separated the kid. You job as driver is the safe delivery of your passengers, period.)



Each case you mentioned it seems that the ones doing the harming or allowing it never faced such hazing. Nor where they trained to do it properly... They were allowed to damage the groups participants without the ability to manage the affair properly...

Also like the SEAL example, there should always be a bell... That way the weak can go ring it.... no questions asked, you just quit...

Originally posted by ripcontrol
On this one I have to side with the minority


Hazing is neither disturbing or wrong, the misuse of it however is!

How is it used properly?

It is a form of testing that group of individuals performs on new members to insure they are able to make the cut.

If they make it they have proved themselves and can be trusted. Without it the group suffers and is unable to operate effectively.

So, being able to drink a lot of alcohol or water is proving what exactly? Taking a beating and living through it is part of playing an instrument or showing that you're one of them?

Those cases you mentioned lacked one mere thing. The person involved that died should not have been there.

He was good enough to be accepted by the band's conductor. The ones who did the hazing should not have been allowed to remain in the band.

In what you see as a lack of kindness I see as an act of stupidity.

I see both.

Those who are that weak should not be allowed to participate. The oversite person should have pulled them as unfit and said, I am sorry you cant participate...

Yes. They should've done this to the hazers as soon as it was reported.

These people were allowed to continue after they showed signs...

Yes. As soon as their psychopathic tendencies showed, they should've been thrown out.

BTW, the system of hazing is not something you should frown upon.

I disagree with every fiber of my being.

Without it you would be speaking german and the world would be short a lot more jews.

What?!?

I give you Paris Island as the counter... Every Marine who has been through knows they are part of an elite organization, that has only the best. To make it through you have to be strong and emotionally secure... If you graduate from all the hazing you are part of a brotherhood of some of the best..

Well, I guess I've never seen this in a military recruitment brochure. They really should put it in there since surviving hazing is part of the checklist.

Also the elite special forces groups of the world also do not sit around the ground singing world peace songs... the whole set of training is hazing...

So, when military brochures mention 'endurance' they mean 'hazing'?

It strengthens your commitment to the group and the group commitment to you. With out these commitments society would fall apart. In fact perhaps we need some more hazing specifically designed to ensure we function as a society...

I have no commitment to psychopaths. We are in the mess we are in this world because psychopaths/sociopaths have been able to keep control.

The one thing I will give is the definition I was given by an old boss on this... before I went into the military.. however it proved useful...

All this crap belongs to me... When I make a sword, I pay for the steel, the fires and the tongs... I then pay yall to sit there and twist it... I paid for the training of yall in this, and you should be smart enough to see if a piece of metal is good or if it is a piece of crap..

Yep. He sounds like a mental case.

The same goes for those houses my other people are building. If the foreman is not smart enough to separate the bad lumber from the good lumber, well I find a new foreman.

Again, how does hazing test intelligence. As I see it, only the ones who allow it to happen are lacking in this department.

(its called quality control)

No. It's called illness.

The same go with men. Either they can cut it or they cant... Red the trick to success it to be able to separate the bad lumber and metal from the good

Good to know.

Well applying his advice, the problem is that some people should have been pulled from the rites...

Yes. The ones doing the hazing.

Check your numbers... every time they have outlawed hazing, it has failed... they return right back to it....

Because those mental cases in charge didn't enforce it.

A wiser policy is simply this.. you want to prevent the deaths...

enforce an earlier culling mechanism...

Rabbits are culled, not people.

if the rites require say excessive drinking, make everyone get health test..

The person who wrote the rites needs a mental examination.

if some one can not pass them... sorry you cant be a part of of organization...

Then the organization should be dissolved if psychopaths are running it.

or lets say for band... if they are sick, sorry you will not be participating... if it is continuous,, kick them out...

Yeah. The ones who are sick in the head need to be gone.

(If the driver had been forced through such a program, they would have acted in the groups best interest and separated the kid. You job as driver is the safe delivery of your passengers, period.)

Yeah. Who cares if he was the best at playing the instrument and keeping in step with the rest of them. It's his fault for dying during the hazing. I'm understanding now.

Each case you mentioned it seems that the ones doing the harming or allowing it never faced such hazing. Nor where they trained to do it properly... They were allowed to damage the groups participants without the ability to manage the affair properly...

No. It sounds as though they were hazed at some point and had become desensitized to the barbarity of it all.

Also like the SEAL example, there should always be a bell... That way the weak can go ring it.... no questions asked, you just quit...

Yeah. Everytime a bell rings, a psychopath wins. No, wait. That's not how it goes, is it?

Thanks for commenting. I'll remain alone in my views.

reply to post by ripcontrol

so you condone bullying of a person so he can prove that he is strong enough to join your little group .
i think that it is no wonder that there is so many cases of so called friendly fire in the american forces .
i know that if i was treated that way by my fellow men , i would have no problem turning a blind eye in a situation where one of my bullies needed help .
bullies are no heros bullies are basicaly cowards

reply to post by tom.farnhill

bullies are no heros bullies are basicaly cowards

You're a breath of fresh air.
Thank you!

Being single, I was starting to wonder if I should simply start hazing my potential boyfriends. You know, if he can't drink three gallons of water and live, then he's obviously not good enough to be my partner.

Maybe ATS should have hazing, too. All new members should meet at some abandoned warehouse near them and be beaten by long term members in their area. If they live, then they are allowed to comment on the boards.

Is anyone besides you and I seeing how silly hazing is?

Hazing, in one form or another, exists in more realms than one can imagine. Not all hazing incidents are physical or violent in nature and most can be considered just a right of initiation for someone new to a team, fire or police department, unit, job etc...

From the lands of academia, athletics, military, fraternal orgs., and even the workplace, hazing has always been there and always will be. Sadly, the violent and tragic events always take the headlines and certainly should not be condoned nor should all incidents be lumped in with the tragic events either. There is a difference between a beat down and a practical joke. TV is littered with shows centered around "practical jokes" these days. You have to know where to draw the line i suppose.