Was Kim Jong IL really a dictator?

Originally posted by IshmaelKipling
To Recouper:

"the brutal suppression of the people of NK by their leadership has been confirmed by tourists"

Confirmed by tourists? Doesn't that strike you as odd? Tourists? If North Korea really is that bad, why would tourists even want to go there?

We have actual footage of people starving, reports of people who flee every day, pictures...there is TONS of evidence. Clearly, you haven't even bothered to watch the linked videos

In all fairness, the Great Famine was entirely due to poor planning, a global recession, the collapse of the Soviet Union and a particularly bad monsoon season. So, unlike Stalin and Mao, Kim did not deliberately starve his own people; he was simply incompetent.

Since one picture is worth a thousand words, I present these images for you to ponder:



The Korean peninsula at night. Where does all the action appear to be?



A spontaneous outpouring of patriotism on the part of thousands of spectators at a sporting event. Doesn't that look like fun?

Originally posted by IshmaelKipling
And is that a fact? How do you know for certain there are millions of starving north koreans? did you get that information from the media?

Ask the thousands of defectors who escape the country every year. They're more than willing to tell the outside world about the reeducation camps, the starvation, the murder and torture...

Let me guess, you're gonna say that all of our media is controlled, that all directors and producers are "in on it" and in every country too. And then you're gonna completely ignore that all those inside NK who have a TV can only watch messages and legends about their leaders.

If you want to see massive propaganda on a level not seen in any other part of the world, go to NK and check it out for yourself as a tourist. You can go to Pyongyang (only Pyongyang though!) and see it all for yourself, just as thousands do each year.

Wait, are all those tourists going there every year lying too?

reply to post by neotech1neothink


Maybe the OP is right. That sounds more like the actions of a supervillain than your standard run-of-the-mill dictator.

Originally posted by Atzil321
Here, watch this disturbing video of the reaction to kim jong mentally il's death. These people are not grieving at the monsters passing, but out of fear to be seen having no reaction to it.... That tells you everything you need to know about N Korea.

That does seem to be alot of fake crying, due to the fact that there are no tears. Could be a genetic defect of Koreans: no tear ducts. Could they at least find somone sad about thier relationship failing and film them crying?

reply to post by IshmaelKipling


It is good that you do not belive what the MSM tells you. I bet this dictator had some good ideas along with his absolute dictatorship.

Its really how you look at it and from who's point of view.

A rebel is someone's heroes.

A "Terrorist" is someone's saviour.

Etc........

Doesn't the argument presented by the Opening Poster destroy itself? Assume that all news sources are lies, add in that we know governments lie, and we also know that people can be manipulated.

Granted all that how do we know that Kim Jung ll was the ruler of North Korea and not just a figurehead in a country really ruled by Henry Kissinger? How do we know that Kim Jung Il is dead? I didn't see the body with a DNA comparison from a sample drawn at birth. (And even that would only tell me that the dead guy was born at some time (and I had already guessed that.)

This is the second of two very disturbing threads I've seen. This one discredits most knowledge, the other discredited reason. These are dangerous paths to walk.

I know that this is a conspiracy site, but this thread seems to be either just saying something for the fun of it, or being goofy beyond words.

Originally posted by IshmaelKipling
All the media says he was a terrible dictator. But I know enough to realize that the media is controlled by the New World Order and everything they say are lies.

So what was the truth about him?

No you are paranoid. Now certainly the media do not always tell the truth (although most untruths are NOT conspiracies but f-ups by incompetent journalists and/or career chasing journalists), they certainly put a political bias depending who they wish to support but the premise that everything is a lie is the only option available to paranoid conspiracists since the truth conflicts with their conspiracies (its called cognitive dissonance a well researched and documented psychological state). Getting the truth requires you to read many cross referenced sources. Guess what the western media does not always lie.

I was driving home one day and wondered would there really be anyone on ATS so brainwashed with the NWO conspiracy they they would try and spin KJI as a "good guy". Well you have disappointed me.

Here are the misunderstood good guys:

Saddam Hussein
Kim Jong IL
Muammar Gaddafi
Hosni Mubarak
Bashar al-assad

And everyone in those countries that you see complaining about those leaders are actually paid stooges of the CIA. Not that you will see anyone[\b] complaining about KJI for one of 2 reasons:

A. Fear (normal under dictatorships)
B. He was perfect (like no other leader in the history of the human race)

Take your paranoid pick.

reply to post by IshmaelKipling

All you have to do is watch the documentaries from inside north korea to see that it is indeed a totalitarian dictatorship. Even though media and those documentaries are biased and full of propaganda, they still contain enough evidence to show that these poor people are completely controlled. If it wasnt a dictatorship, then north koreans would not behave the way they are.

This is a false dichotomy by saying 'either or' one of the two extremes which are illogical.
Reality does not exist within the extremes, it is somewhere in the gray area. There is a balance of polarities.

Read this thread I wrote:
Info about North Korea that isn't common knowledge.

North Korea's literacy rate is 99%, which is better than most nations globally.
Better than Israel at 97%, India at 71%, or Afghanistan at 28%. Niger 28%.
Most of Africa is between 25-60% literacy.
South American nations are between 70-90% roughly.

They live in a system where they have to work for their food (just like EVERYWHERE ELSE).
Except that the fact they have to rely on themselves due to international sanctions and so therefore they have many factories where they produce their own goods rather than importing it. (Something Americans want very badly).

Compare their death rate of 9 / 1000.
USA 8.3 / 1000.
Russia 14.3 / 1000.
It's actually better in terms of death rate than most nations globally.

I will quote myself from that thread:
'These numbers tell me that things in North Korea are a lot better than the media claims they are. I would wager a bet that they are not starving as badly as they are portrayed. (Political Bias).
It appears to me that starvation is a bigger problem in half of the world's population especially in 3rd world locations such as Africa or other dispersed nations.'

In the North Korean Constitution Freedom of Speech is listed as a protected right. It is however suppressed only when people break another law prohibiting "subversion", and instead of being executed like everyone claims they are instead put into what is called a "re-education camp".

People's claims that "millions are starving" and that "millions are executed" are out of context and misleading propaganda and indoctrinated into their minds.
1) There is no proof that millions are executed, it would be super-easy to prove with modern satellite technology obviously. It would be impossible to hide.
2) Millions are "starving" is subjective apparently because we could also claim that hundreds of millions of Chinese or Indians are "starving", or that millions of Americans are "starving", however this is misleading because they aren't exactly dying either, they obviously get enough to eat to survive fairly long.

Consider the death rates in conjunction with the demographic statistics of the life expectancy.
How does someone go without food for 70 years? It's absurd. People obviously get a lot to eat in 70 years especially considering such low death rates.

Just go look at the statistics yourself and compare and contrast them with other nations.

The fact of the matter is that many nations in South East Asia, South America, and Africa are far worse off according to demographics through comparative analysis.

Read my next post for information and a surprisingly honest CNN link and how you can travel to North Korea right now for a really cheap price and see reality for yourself.

our glorious leader): what will we do without you):
If i have to choose between obama and kim jong il...i dont know man.
I will have to go with kim jong il.

Op can you seriously believe all that rubbish! New Channel Russia Today is Freelance and they report him as a tyrant the only Dictator left now is Robert Mugabe and i can't wait till his demise!!

Originally posted by daaskapital
After the # that the media pulled with Gaddafi, i wouldn;t be surprised if KJI was alright. The amount of things Gaddafi done for Libya was astounding, and then to be overthrown by 'rebels'.

But Kim Jonh IL isn't Gaddafi and North Korea is nothing like Libya.

Kim was a dictator, anyone suggesting otherwise trying to sound all enlightened is just ignorant.

From CNN :
North Korea: What it's like inside the secretive nation

The first time that Brit Simon Cockerell visited North Korea, he noticed how clean it seemed. The air was not polluted like in Beijing, where he has lived since 2000. Another curiosity also struck him: In the capital of Pyongyang, there were no advertisements or billboards, and there was no traffic.

Most people want to live in a less-polluted nation.
Most people hate billboards and excessive advertisements (and they hate traffic).

"It's a place that can seem very dead during the week. There are a few bars in Pyongyang, but they close around 10 p.m.

So the bars close at 10 pm instead of the average 2am here in the USA? Wow that's so oppressive right?

North Korea's is a working society, he said. The workweek is six days, and children are often in school. "On the weekends, you might see people in parks, though," Cockerell said.

Sounds pretty normal imho.

But all that work does not equal advancement or personal riches.

Working hard in the USA doesn't equal advancement or personal riches either!!! Hardcore fact!

Cockerell works for the China-based tourism company Koryo Group. British ex-pat Nicholas Bonner, who also lives in Beijing, co-founded the company, which offers tours ranging from two-day visits to Pyongyang to 16-night trips across the country. The typical Koryo client is highly adventurous and well-traveled. North Korea is a much-desired passport stamp for many travelers, the company says.

Why don't you book your own travel adventure and go meet them first hand and see how life is there yourself?
None of these propaganda driven indoctrinated Westerners will admit that travelling to North Korea is LEGAL.

Most Americans cry about wanting security checks for people entering the USA (see illegal immigration debate), but at least in North Korea they require you to have a passport. Another blatant contradiction and example of widespread ignorance on the part of Westerners.

"There are people who go to North Korea expecting to be spied on, and they make up their minds that it's going to be dramatic," Cockerell said. "I hate to spoil someone's sexy story, but there's no way to tell if that's happening. Visitors experience the place the way they want to experience it. So you see an odd-looking man across the street whose gaze is lingering a bit too long. Is he a spy? Would it be more interesting if he were? There's really no way to know. You can't ask someone and get an answer, which, of course, to some people heightens the mystery."

This is a fairly reasonable article although they do slip in a little hear-say. Overall it's mostly honest and an attempt by Koryo Group to compel travelers to book their visit to North Korea and find out how things are themselves personally. A great opportunity considering they give tours of many fascinating historical sites and you can check out how the population lives first hand and visit with them.

Why ask people that run away? Why not go visit there yourself?

Koryo gives tours of North Korea to about 1,500 tourists every year, including a two-day visit for about 700 euros. A 16-night adventure is available for many thousands more. During a longer trip, Koryo can charter a private plane to fly to the west coast and along the DMZ, then head to the northeast coast, where tourists can stay with a North Korean family in a structure built for tourists.

A trip there is super cheap apparently.

Many more tourists visit the nation yearly than the ones who go through Koryo Group. Also there are many business travelers and NK is opening up to more trade.

One issue that confuses people about North Korea is that they have a philosophy of self-reliance and attempt to avoid losing their traditions and way of life to outside globalist corporate influences. They believe that these influences will exploit them and turn them into slaves and destroy their 'tranquil atmosphere'.

Did you know that :

Tourists can't accessorize their mobile phones because they must surrender them before entering the country and get them back when they're leaving, Cockerell said. But iPads, computers and digital reading devices like Kindles are allowed. "This policy doesn't make sense, but it's been around for many years," he said.

You can't take your mobile phone in apparently (probably due to GPS tracking etc), but you can probably bring in a normal camera (within whatever restrictions might apply).
A Kindle is allowed apparently which you can have all sorts of books on. I guess that means 1984 and Brave New World are allowed (?), but that makes since because "subversion" is defined as direct attacks on the North Korean government, not government in general or other foreign governments.

Read the whole article.

reply to post by muzzleflash


But who is providing the information for these statistics? North Korea has always been secretive and has never had a problem lying to the world to make themselves look better than they actually are. Why would this case be any different? Just look at any of the documentaries from inside NK. They do everything in their power to make it appear they are a prosperous nation with an abundance of food. However, we know this to be false. A major staple of Korean cuisine, especially among the lower classes, has always been rice. Unfortunately, the are very few areas where rice can be grown due to the mountainous terrain of the country. We also know that the areas where rice can be grown have been getting regularly flooded since the construction of the Barrage. This is wiping out a large portion of the crop that is the most basic form of nourishment for most of the country.

I think he was a King becuase he got his position through inheritance

dictators get theirs through military coup
his son inherits his position=King

When it comes to North Korea you need to basically stop judging their culture based on media propaganda and start looking more closely at the proven facts.

Visit the nation yourself and talk to the people who actually live there, and decide for yourself.

It is clear to anyone with an open rational mind which is based upon logic, that North Korea is not the best nation on Earth nor is it the most Tyrannical nation either. Conditions are moderate and better than almost any '3rd world' nation.

They are doing quite well when it comes to education, environmental conditions, law and order, and avoiding exploitation by the globalist slave running corporations.

They are somewhat restrictive when it comes to subverting the government through radical political views, but overall free speech is protected for the most part in most subjects such as science and religion.

The claims about mass starvation and mass killings are outright lies when you compare the available facts and the address the lack of evidence supporting it.

I would rate North Korea around the 40th to 60th nation on 'best living conditions' scale on a global comparative analysis of the available demographic data.

Like I said, book a flight and go check it out yourself first hand since obviously travel and tourism are allowed.

Check out the thread I linked 2 posts above and check out my rants on page 1 and my demographic data links on page 2.

If you judge the claims most people make about what "they want life to be like" in our Western nations, you will quickly realize that many people actually want a society similar to North Korea.

We foam at the mouth and condemn nations like this due to political propaganda indoctrination in order to justify de-humanizing them so that going to war will be much easier. But in reality things aren't exactly the way they are portrayed on TV...

Like I said, playing this as a false dichotomy between the two extreme positions is unrealistic and illogical. Reality lies within the gray zone.

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

But who is providing the information for these statistics?

Those statistics are linked on page 2 of my thread.

CIA World Factbook
siakhenn.tripod.com...
Wikipedia.org
Worldpress.org
And the government of DPRK.

So the sources are varied and diverse.

Each source is slightly different within context (different years, etc).
So pay close attention to the setting of each list, within reason of course.

Take it with a grain of salt as you would any other information you are given anywhere else.

The problem is that people take what the MSM says without any salt at all. And that's what needs to be fought.