Are Video Games the Ultimate Conditioning Tools?

Originally posted by DocHalladay
Whether you want to believe it or not, it is very basic military training. This came up in a discussion I was having with a friend the other day when he mentioned the possibility of the U.S. being invaded by another country. As a country we are armed to the teeth and with the popularity of games like COD, millions have that very basic training. It would be a nightmare for any country to invade homeland United States.

Anyway, I do think we are being conditioned by games, whether it's on purpose or not. Nice topic.

Playing a game like COD prepares you for war as much as playing Forza 4 prepares me to drive a Bugatti Veyron 257 MPH , or Ace Combat prepares me for an Immelman in an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. It doesn't teach discipline or tactics because nothing that happens in the game is real, therefore the players don't react like they would in reality.. for example in the game I've run around with a knife on a battlefield with people firing every concievable nato small arm at me and predator drones launching missiles at me while I stabbed people to death. it makes for good fun but it makes for a quick way to end up at room temperature should you try that in a real firefight.

In addition what is the most important part of shooting after sight picture/ sight alignment ?.... TRIGGER CONTROL! followed up by reset. How do you teach trigger control when there is no trigger? I've taken many friends to the range with me that have never touched a firearm, but play COD like it's their job. I bring my M4gery , my SAR 1 (AKM pattern rifle) and my Glock 19. These are weapons that they are familiar with in the game , once they get over the initial shock of shooting for the 1st time they all say the same thing "THIS IS NOTHING LIKE COD!!!!"

I think movies and television condition you more than games because your mind is passive and your brainwaves move from beta to alpha and you're unaware you're being conditioned.

As an experiment go shoot some clay pigeons in duck hunt (I'm sure it's online somewhere) and then go try trap shooting... lemme know how that works out for you.

No flames from me the Bosses call it predictive programing I'm especially interested in RB6 Patriots the idea in this current time is almost to much of a coincidence.

Imagine a Nationalist terrorist organization growing in the United States driving the nation toward a second civil war. But wait our protagonist appear to save the day a multinational SF team backed by the UN rides in on black helicopters to save the day. What when did the people fighting for their nation become the bad guys maybe when
they decided to blow it up to save it.

There are also some really good things about such games that are equally important to mention... and this starts to blur the lines between 'teaching' and 'conditioning'...

* an experience of team work, collective goals,
* an experience of collecting, scavenging items that can be used later in the game,
* an experience of trial & error that cannot be duplicated in the real world

Back to the ominous subject.. these games are still utilizing real-world narratives to supply the player with some sort of basic motivation. These fictionalized narratives (here the danger lies) become blurred with actual current events.

The examples you give are disturbing. But they are no more disturbing that the Hollywood production of westerns in the 1940-1960's in where thousands of savage "injuns" were killed, over and over again, by the heroic white-anglo male leads.

edit to add: eXistenZ is brilliant.
You might like to dig up Chris Carter's Harsh Realm en.wikipedia.org... which was a short run TV series from 1999 and it deals specifically with video game immersion.

Originally posted by PartyboyK
Nice topic, I also play video games on a regular basis. I believe video games, especially triple A shooter games like Call of Duty and Battlefield, are used to condition the masses, but I'm not sure what message they're trying to send. I don't like to think video games will eventually be as full of propaganda as TV and, yes, the internet.

I've always suspected these games, although most people can see them for what they are, are brought out and distributed to the masses as desensitization tools, as is a lot of the movies that come out today. We see so much blood and violence being streamed into our lives every day. I mean if you are used to seeing something, even if it it is only on a screen, I would suspect in time the real thing would become less of a real dilemma to process when the real thing finally happens.
It just makes we wonder where it is all headed towards, just seems too much of a coincidence to be just random games and images pushed onto us.

i've played a lot of video games in my time. i've seen pretty much every gaming system come and go.
I was a kid playing Super Mario Bros. before there was anything else out. nostalgia so bad right now. thanks...

ghost recon was a favorite of mine at the time, which happened to be just after 9/11. think about that for a second.
then theres counterstrike, counter terrorists vs terrorists.

so there is clearly a gradual incline towards more modern war orientated games for the psyche.

i've noticed since the iraq war, the games have moved from a foriegn war landscape to levels of western cities themselves as if to plant the idea that war will ultimately hit home, this is how it will look, prepare yourself kind of deal.

as for call of duty, I watched it morph from an innocent world war 2 historical game into a projection of world war 3 and modern government blackops. militia vs security forces is the new theme.

I like call of duty mulitplayer personally because I don't learn what I can do. I learn what I shouldn't do next time.
modern warfare 2, yourmaker74 is my psn

games aren't what they used to be.
half life 2 on the other hand. a game I recommend for the right kind of video game conditioning.
or beating ocarina of time when I was 13, that was an accomplishment and learned some life lessons at a valuable time.

it goes both ways.

Whilst I see the point that the OP is making, I know there are no hidden agendas in gaming. I Have designed two games my self (way back on the Amiga, if anyone remembers them) Lost patrol and flight of the intruder (based on a book)

The principle behind game design is not to program the players, but to create a game everyone wants to play, to make it exciting and gripping and also to make the theme something that initially excites, now the thing that appeals most in games is killing, just a simple fact, if every time you fired your weapon a bunch of flowers grew, no matter how well designed or how much production value you put into it, it would still not sell

Fighting games have no basis in reality (Also an ex soldier) when I designed Lost Patrol, which was a game based on a small platoon trapped behind enemy lines in Vietnam, I tried to make it as tense as possible, so that every move was a risk and scary to grip the player. But it could never recreate battlefield tension, and it certainly wasn't preparing people for real combat

There are games out there that deal with many subjects, look at the Deus Ex series, all about a battle between the NWO, the Illuminati and traditionalists, during the game you have to decide which side you will support with arguments for and against each faction, it is a conspiracy theorists wet dream, I loved it. But it is not pre-programming of players, it is just market economics, what will sell.

The CoD franchise was based originally on WW2 games, but if they just stayed with WW2 then the series would become boring and so it moved into a different theatre of combat, no doubt the series will move into a different theatre of war for the next game having done 3 in the series. CoD games have a huge budget now, in excess of 100 Million dollars to make, but then take in over 1 Billion dollars in revenue and that is what it is all about revenue, the Battlefield series started the same way with WW2 then moved on to later conflict zones, but you cant believe it is programming when you can run, jump in a jet, bomb the enemy, parachute out and then just jump into a tank, drive it all by yourself, get blown up but jump out without dying and then run around in full view of everyone like rambo and killing loads

And look at the most popular games, yes you have fighting games like CoD or BF, but then you have really popular games that are about fighting zombies (lots of them, games that is) or strategy games like Rome, total war and Shogun, total war, are we be condition for zombie attacks or a return to feudal Japan? No of course not, they are just popular themes that will sell games. Games are designed to make money, there is nothing sinister, except that the may well desensitize the players and kill rather than increase empathy, just as too much violence in films does. I am nearly 50 years old now, I grew up with there being very little violence on TV, now the content is graphic. If I had seen some of the movies that are available now when I was young I would of been sick, yet now I am used to them, don't bat an eye when I see some one mutilated on screen or in game and that is the real tragedy of gaming and modern media in general

i think the game makers just play to whats in at the moment, during the cold war it was all russian vs america ww3 ya know, so its a reflection on reality i guess, but always blown crazily out of proportion.

this is of course just for the fps's or war games of the day, theres tons of games ofc that dont fit the mold, and generally those are the most fun.

i love videogames with my entire body.

all usa movies and video games are conditioning tools, i stay away from the big game companies, especially hate EA now that i know they are one of companies that supported the lastest censor the internet laws..

look at the movie Captain america and tell me thats not propoganda

If someone has posted about what I say, I'm sorry I haven't read all the thread or indeed the entire original post.
I watched an interesting program on the study of about 40, 12-14 year old boys.
Half were given violent games etc and the other half were given learning games, maths english you get the drinft.

One by one the boys had to have an interview (after only 1/2 hour of gaming) with the lead scientists/whatever he was, who accidentally knocked over a glass of pencils on his desk.
They found that an empathetic child would 'help' pick up those pencils, the ones who played learning games
The 'gamers' barely even flinched and continued as if nothing had happened.
The interviewer only reacted if the boy did, most of the gamers didn't. There it is right there...

My children are not allowed to view let alone play violent video games, they do however play some at their mates, but I find out.
One kids house has since been black listed(by me) until they (the parents)clean up their act and can be trusted with showing my kids only suitable material for their ages.
They can stay here, but my son stays here too.

It desensitizes violence, always has done and that is my opinion that I'm not afraid to share it.
The real game is being able to play at life, now there's a game!
Greta thread op....I think

Originally posted by AussieAmandaC
If someone has posted about what I say, I'm sorry I haven't read all the thread or indeed the entire original post.
I watched an interesting program on the study of about 40, 12-14 year old boys.
Half were given violent games etc and the other half were given learning games, maths english you get the drinft.

One by one the boys had to have an interview (after only 1/2 hour of gaming) with the lead scientists/whatever he was, who accidentally knocked over a glass of pencils on his desk.
They found that an empathetic child would 'help' pick up those pencils, the ones who played learning games
The 'gamers' barely even flinched and continued as if nothing had happened.
The interviewer only reacted if the boy did, most of the gamers didn't. There it is right there...

So wait, just because some test showed that a few gamer kids didn't help pick up knocked over pencils, you don't allow your kids to play (violent) games ?
If I'm correct... then I'm sorry to say, but that must be one of the supidest things I've heard...
As my thingy on the left says, I'm a student in game development. My class in the beginning of the year counted around 300 students. Only a little more than the 40 in the test you watched.
I can safely say that a ton of those students would pick up those pencils if it happened.
Yes, there are some that wouldn't, but you have the 'bad side' in every group out there.


On topic;
As I'm not able to watch the videos right now, I'm not sure if I get your point.
Is this about games being so close to reality?
If so then I'd say it's just because game developers in some cases want to use reality to attract players.
If I understand it incorrectly, could someone please explain the point to me.

reply to post by LanceDH


No, but I can see how it sounded. The test showed that most of the violent gamers didn't react at all.
Draw your own conclusions.

My kids have never been allowed games, no xbox no ps, I was not prepared to raise zombies, sorry just me.

You don't think you are desensitized to violence from playing them? I disagree
stupid is playing a game in stead of enhancing your intelligence imo

reply to post by EyesWideShut


If you read my post you will see that I very purposely put basic in there. Do you honestly think I believe you can send people right off of Call of Duty to the front lines? Absolutely, not. If you ever played the game, you would know that they take you through all kinds of different missions and explain to you how to react in many different situations. This is what you would call military maneuvers. Whether it be creeping through a village and going through houses or covertly sneaking through the enemy camps, it is covered in Call of Duty. Of course shooting a Barrett .50 in real life and on a video game will be different, but it shows you how to handle it as well as practice aiming down sites. All that would fall under basic.

Oh yeah, there are reasons why the military has simulators. Would you care to tell me the difference between those and COD. Keep in mind that the game developer went out and brought in ex-Army to help them in the design process. That was in Modern Warfare 2 & 3 as well as Black Ops

Simple answer to this thread... YES

Originally posted by AussieAmandaC
reply to post by LanceDH

 

No, but I can see how it sounded. The test showed that most of the violent gamers didn't react at all.
Draw your own conclusions.

My kids have never been allowed games, no xbox no ps, I was not prepared to raise zombies, sorry just me.

You don't think you are desensitized to violence from playing them? I disagree
stupid is playing a game in stead of enhancing your intelligence imo

Using a very simple and personal example, I've been a gamer since.. I'm going with 1999-2000, that's at an age of 9-10.
I currently study game development in highschool where I learn advanced math, programming in C++, art history, philosophy and other things.
On a daily basis I chat and play with gamers who study and have studied things like Engineering and law.
Yet you claim that gaming makes people zombies and stupid.
I'm sorry to say, as this will sound rude, but I do think YOU need some intelligence when it comes to this subject.
And by that I do not mean reading some article on the internet/newspaper/magazine or a documentary on tv, no I'm talking about real events going on in every day life, and then you drawn your OWN conclusions rather than just taking was is said on tv as fact.
If you don't want your kids to be "raised as zombies" or "desensitized to violence", I'd suggest locing them up in your basement.
You can't watch tv or read a newspaper without seeing pain an suffering, books and movies contain violence, real life is nothing but violence, pain, suffering, lies, ...
So there is no reason for you to point your finger towards games and say that they are the cause.

I have been a gamer for um.. 17 years, i played FPS and RPG and everything in between.

I would like to say that, no FPS games like COD or BF, is not conditioning or make people join military what i noticed is that it makes player be very knowledgeable about guns(This is Canada btw). Main reason players from 8 years of age to 50 years of age play these game because it is easy to get into, online, competitive and also peer pressure.. i remember lot of people at work talking about when Modern Warfare 3 was being released they said "its just a copy of Modern Warfare 2, nothing is changed, just reskinned ",. this might be true but they ended up getting the game cause few people from work have it, and its a good way to keep up the "socializing".

We are at a age where people want to know what everyone else is doing, they don't want to miss out, these are few ways to keep in contact, see how many people go clueless nowadays without their cellphone. i left my phone at home once and i really felt "naked".

Yeah the new Rainbow 6 game is about home grown terrorism and battling American Militias. Really sick stuff and totally a propaganda tool. They are trying to brainwash the public into accepting Government crack down on citizens and helping to establish the idea of domestic terrorism. Soon anyone that opposes the governement, even non violently will be labeled a terrorist. If there is any doubt left that we have become a facist nation, I don't what else left is there to convince people.

The government is not your friend, big business if not your friend. We are being taken for a ride all the while people preach about this being the best system available to run our lives and dictate our future. The profit motive and dehumanization of our society will do us in until we get honest about our problems and stop trying to bandaid gashes that require stitches. Our economic policy is failing, our economic system is failing, our system of governance is failing and our concept of industrialization and techonological progress is failing.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by DocHalladay
reply to post by EyesWideShut

 

If you read my post you will see that I very purposely put basic in there.

There isn't a hint of any sort of basic training in the game at all, that's the reason 10 year old kids prestige in 72 hours and melee you to death as soon as you respawn. Do you really think little johnny would be combat effective if you put him in theatre? Trust me, when a game puts in SALUTE reports , 5 Paragraph orders and NJP's , THEN I'll say there is basic training in it...lol COD only seems like it has basic training to people that have never served. It's not your fault, you simply don't know any better. I'm sure if you watched a movie and the protagonist was in the same profession as you, you'd be able to pick apart everything about it, because you'd have intimate knowledge of said profession... I on the other hand would be ignorant of that profession and if it looked like what I think it should in my head, I could say it was accurate....but I'd be wrong.

Do you honestly think I believe you can send people right off of Call of Duty to the front lines?

No, but to even insinuate that a game has any sort of "BASIC" military training is ignorant in my opinion. Based strictly off of what you have learned while playing COD, do you believe you could operate in any capacity in the military? If your answer is anything but "No" there is no need to further this discussion.

If you ever played the game, you would know that they take you through all kinds of different missions and explain to you how to react in many different situations. This is what you would call military maneuvers.

Yes, I've played the game. No, that is not hardly what you'd call military maneuvers. If you're in doubt about this, ask a vet.

Whether it be creeping through a village and going through houses or covertly sneaking through the enemy camps, it is covered in Call of Duty.

Too bad it doesn't cover how to treat a sucking chest wound or tension pneumothorax.... because that's what happens in reality when you go sneaking through enemy camps.

Of course shooting a Barrett .50 in real life and on a video game will be different, but it shows you how to handle it as well as practice aiming down sites. All that would fall under basic.

Well for starters pressing a button on a controller isn't shooting... and I don't get how COD shows you how to "Handle" a SASR. It's 30 lbs of rifle producing upwards of 12k Ft/Lbs of muzzle energy. The first time you shoot it the overpressure alone would shock the hell out of you, you'd be flinching too bad to get any hits on follow ups. Forget about windage, elevation & parallax huh?

Oh yeah, there are reasons why the military has simulators. Would you care to tell me the difference between those and COD.

Absolutely! When I was in the Corps , we trained on the ISMT (Pronounced IZ Mit) Indoor Simulated Marksmanship Trainer. It's sort of like an indoor range, there is a scenario thats projected infront of you on a movie screen and you are manipulating a weapon that mimics how your weapon actually works, it's pneumatic so it even recoils and can be programmed with different types of malfunctions. The scenario can be changed on the fly by the instructor thats running the scenario. In one scenario you enter a room and there's 1 bad guy and a hostage, next scenario you enter the same room and there's 3 badguys , or the hostage is the bad guy. If feels realistic and even though you know it's a simulation, it'll raise your heart rate. In a nutshell it's nothing like COD. Google it for more info.

Keep in mind that the game developer went out and brought in ex-Army to help them in the design process. That was in Modern Warfare 2 & 3 as well as Black Ops

I fully understand that, there is a whole industry devoted to this. They're called "Military Technical Advisors" and the particular "Ex Army" that you're speaking about is actually Sgt Major Dever of the United States Marine Corps. He heads a company called "1 Force Inc" and they handled the tech stuff on MW4. His job is to make people like you feel as though they're getting a technically realistic experience , and judging by your posts , he's succeded. Warriors Inc, and Sabre Ops are also outstanding companies that do very good work.