Finland Launches Probe into China-Bound Missiles

reply to post by AGWskeptic


You understand the difference between Scuds and the sort of missiles Palestinians usedon't you?

In 1990-91 the Patriot's anti-missile role was untested and almost a hopeful afterthought to its anti-aircraft role - I think you will find they are a bit more effective now.

reply to post by Maxmars


Not necessarily contradicting, just other sources claiming the shipment originated in Germany en route to S. Korea , nothing to substantiate the claims yet.

reply to post by Daedal


So American companies are selling off weapons to other countries because they pay more and that is how other countries get a hold of weapons. Then we send in military to take out those people with weapons that companies with ties to the military gave them in the first place ?


wow...just wow

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


I had a Patriot battery set up 100 yards from my aide station in Saudi, the crews ate in our mess and used my sick call tent.

They would have to be leaps and bounds better for me to consider them effective.

I spent more than a few nights playing poker with the crews who manned it, and to the man they thought the system was a joke, even the officers.

It's possible they have worked through the problems, but knowing how these defense contractors operate I highly doubt it. It was a media weapon, nothing more.

Originally posted by butcherguy
I wonder if these missiles may have been part of the weapons that have recently been removed from Iraq?

They may have been deployed there, and then found their way into the wrong hands.

Possibly, but since Israel has to actively use these systems (note the date of the story: 07.15.06 here: www.ynetnews.com... about three Patriot batteries that were set up in Haifa)

We might be talking about these missiles having been deployed hundreds of times trying to shoot down missiles ranging from the Grad type to the oversize bottle rocket type, and with potentially hundreds of missiles having been deployed (or claimed to have been deployed) we're talking about easy opportunity for the Patriot missiles having become 'lost' or 'laundered' by those who profit by funding both sides.

Would it be too obvious to suggest that this is simply the US delivering arms to SK in preparation for a potential NK attack?
The BBC article suggests there is some evidence that they were to dock in SK too.

This could simply be a delivery intended to be "under the radar" so as not to stoke tensions with NK further. Perhaps the US troops stationed in SK need more heavy weaponry to defend against an attack?

It's safe to say that if NK saw weapons being unloaded in SK they'd almost have an excuse to start something. I think this is just our way of arming up the South without it being so blatantly obvious.

Originally posted by LucidDreamer85
reply to post by Daedal

 

So American companies are selling off weapons to other countries because they pay more and that is how other countries get a hold of weapons. Then we send in military to take out those people with weapons that companies with ties to the military gave them in the first place ?


wow...just wow

Several nations sell arms to other nations and then bomb the crap out of them. It's the way it's always been done. Where there's money to be made, morals are conveniently missing.

All arms manufacturers sell to numerous oppressive regimes. And 99% of those arms manufacturers are "conveniently" private companies on the face of it, while actually being government controlled.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
Would it be too obvious to suggest that this is simply the US delivering arms to SK in preparation for a potential NK attack?
The BBC article suggests there is some evidence that they were to dock in SK too.

This could simply be a delivery intended to be "under the radar" so as not to stoke tensions with NK further. Perhaps the US troops stationed in SK need more heavy weaponry to defend against an attack?

It's safe to say that if NK saw weapons being unloaded in SK they'd almost have an excuse to start something. I think this is just our way of arming up the South without it being so blatantly obvious.

The U.S. already has a large military presence in SK, including military ports and airfields.

If they wanted to bring stuff in they could just ship it direct.

This smells more like a high end arms dealer trying to play a shell game.

This was a shipping company that was trying to get around paper work and improperly ship these missiles.

Most cargo has a number of companies handling the shipping even before its loaded in the ship.
# The shipper
# The shipping line booking agency
# The cargo consolidating companies.
And in many cases the company that owns the ship can and will charge more for dangerous good so these other companies have a profit advantage if they can sneak something through the system without the ship owner finding out

These are likely older model missiles from a european country that has upgraded to the latest model.

They likely sold there old missiles to south korea and did not vet there shipping route when they picked a shipping company.

As for the stop in Shanghai China it is a major fueling stop for ships and there is no way for any cargo ship to transit from Europe to south Korea without refueling at least 2 times.

Misslabeling dangerous cargo is common and the US coast guard has caught many ships trying to enter US ports with mislabeled explosives. China does it all the time and gets caught when customs runs there dogs over the ships.
They pay the fine and customs makes sure they don't off load in the US,
China is always trying to slip in fireworks for illegal sale.

What worries me more is the picric acid and nitroguanidine.
These are not used very much in the US and would not be shipped from the US.
Also picnic acid is very unstable and when it is used its mostly a middle product(precursor) used to manufacture other explosives and not transported.

undeclared dangerous cargo has and will be a ongoing problem.
www.3news.co.nz...
www.ttclub.com...

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Wow this is weird.
Here is a site that shows recent ports visited by Thor Liberty.
("http://www.shiptracking.eu/ais/#/getvesseldetails?mmsi=235218000")
It was in Spain on 24/11/11. Then it sailed to Germany. Then to Finland. All this - on path to China?
And where it picked up missiles?

Germany is dirty, I guarantee it was them. Remember, the torpedo that sunk the South Korean warship last year was German. Spain is not that dumb but Germany is and has always been a snake in the grass.

Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
Germany is dirty, I guarantee it was them. Remember, the torpedo that sunk the South Korean warship last year was German.

where did you get that??

AFAIK the only parts ever recovered from somethign that might have sunk teh ship were consistent with it being a north Korean CHT-02D torpedo - a type which they have at least tried to export.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
Germany is dirty, I guarantee it was them. Remember, the torpedo that sunk the South Korean warship last year was German.

where did you get that??

AFAIK the only parts ever recovered from somethign that might have sunk teh ship were consistent with it being a north Korean CHT-02D torpedo - a type which they have at least tried to export.

because the ship initially left from a port in Germany.

reply to post by yourmaker


What has that got to do with an allegation that the torpdo that sank the Korean warship was German?

I have found a website that makes the claim that the torpedo remains were not of the CHT-02D torpedo - but it only suggests that possibly the torpedo was German, and it's actual "detailed reasons for saying it wasn't teh CHT-02D is pretty shakey - its comparison the schematic for the Nth Korean torpedo compared to the wreckage has a different schematic from the actual Korean report, and the differences are quite major - the korean report matches the wreckage with its schematic in all respects where the claim of falsification says they differ.

What does Finland has anything to do with all of this anyway? Finland has only sea teritory at the northsea, and its a deadend on this section of european water.

And they have long range probes, to bother about China? Why is this too weird for me to comprehend?

It's weird that they would load the missiles onto the ship and then take a detour to Finland...

Anyways, my wife's first comment was really good: "Don't bother about China, where will the boat stop on the way there?"

I say a secret buildup in ME (Turkey, Israel, Syrian resistance etc)

reply to post by joe12


Why is it weird? The ship probably has a regular route, or its sailing is at least planned in advance to ensure maximum efficiency. Finland is not very far from Germany in the Baltic.

I am almost certain that the port of destination would not be where they were planning to deliver the cargo. That is an amateur move imo, and I am sure whoever is responsible has done this on at least a few occasions.

I am not sure where they were going, maybe Taiwan as someone said, or maybe South Korea, but I am almost certain that they were not going to China. Were the weapons picked up in Spain or Germany? This is possible, but I bet that they originally came from the ME somewhere...Probably Iraq.

The ship is owned by a Danish company. It is only flagged under Britain.

Why they thought they could get away with anything illegal coming via Finland is beyond me. Almost nothing gets past Finnish Customs. They are quite simply some of the most thorough Customs inspectors anywhere. Why was the cargo listed as fireworks though? KInd of a bad plan all the way around. American missiles shipped by a Danish company's British-flagged ship.

Finnish customs has reported that the ship's captain and crew are suspected of some shady activity. No permissions were requested nor granted from the Finnish authorities and the cargo was misrepresented. Also, the missiles weren't properly contained so the Finnish Defence Forces have confiscated them and will keep them until all of the appropriate paperwork has been done. But it seems that this was a legitimate sale from Germany to South Korea. It looks like the shipping company were the ones who took liberties.

Further:

$1.7 billion Saudi sale approved. (Nov 21/11) The USA’s MIM-104 Phased Array Tracking Radar Intercept On Target (PATRIOT) anti-air missile system offers an advanced backbone for medium-range air defense, and short-range ballistic missile defense, to America and its allies. This article covers domestic and foreign purchase requests and contracts for Patriot systems. It also compiles information about the engineering service contracts that upgrade these systems, ensure that they continue to work, and integrate them with wider command and defense systems. The Patriot missile franchise’s future appears assured. At present, 12 nations have chosen it as a key component of their air and missile defense systems: the USA, Germany, Greece, Japan, Israel, Kuwait, The Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Spain, Taiwan and the UAE. Poland, Qatar, and Turkey have all indicated varying levels of interest, and some existing customers are looking to upgrade their systems.

source

Originally posted by paraphi

Originally posted by Vitchilo
So who's selling/giving those weapons to China? US or the UK or both? I mean, you don't really think that some thief put his hands on 69 Patriot missiles do you?

Isn't the question "who uses Patriot missiles"?

The UK do not, so rule them out.

Germany
Poland
Greece
Netherlands
US
Spain
Bahrain
Egypt
Israel
Japan
Jordan
Kuwait
Taiwan
South Korea
Saudi Arabia

Regards

And then ask which of these could be in a defencive posture right now. Israel, South Korea. Israel because of the Syrain situation, they had their SCUD batts out the other day on maneuvers and SK for a just in case durring the power trasition in the north.

I am wondering if the two Asians that were caught in Italy with 134B in US bonds were making a transaction to buy said mystery shipment?