Swiss Government Declares Downloading for Personal Use Legal

Originally posted by CaptainIraq
Switzerland! **** yeah!. This is where I'm moving when it all goes to hell here in the States...

Here's my thoughts relating this piracy situation, with relation to the gaming industry:

***The following is entirely hypothetical***

So I have this friend...let's call him Leonard...who "illegally" downloads games from time to time. Why? Because the gaming industry puts out a lot of junk (alternatively substitute movie or music for 'gaming') and rarely releases demos anymore. He wants to know if the experience will be worth his money, and he doesn't know anyone who already owns it. And why would you buy a car before test driving it? "Thief!", you might shout at him. But, nay, I say. Why?

What does he do when he downloads a game and doesn't like it? Well, he doesn't play it anymore and avoids a bad investment. What does he do when he does like it? And how about if this game supports multiple players - a feature not supported by pirated games? Well, he buys it, and encourages his friends to do the same.

So what's the problem in this - hypothetical - situation?

***End hypothetical situation***

The primary reason for corporations opposing piracy is because it allows the consumer to bypass their veil of advertisement/marketing BS and actually see if the product is worth the money. They want us to have as little information as possible when we're buying their crappy products. Yes, there will always be those dirtbags who download everything illegally - but more laws certainly won't stop them from doing that.

As long as he pays for the "test drive" and in the example for the game the "test gameplay or playthrough".

reply to post by Jepic


Nope the 3rd sentence was the only one that really counted

Originally posted by RogerT
reply to post by Jepic

 

Nope the 3rd sentence was the only one that really counted

Okay then.

1. Subject A makes music because he/she likes music.
2. Subject A now decides to sell his music to other subjects.
3. Subject B buys Subject A's music.

Originally posted by CaptainIraq
Switzerland! **** yeah!. This is where I'm moving when it all goes to hell here in the States...

Here's my thoughts relating this piracy situation, with relation to the gaming industry:

***The following is entirely hypothetical***

So I have this friend...let's call him Leonard...who "illegally" downloads games from time to time. Why? Because the gaming industry puts out a lot of junk (alternatively substitute movie or music for 'gaming') and rarely releases demos anymore. He wants to know if the experience will be worth his money, and he doesn't know anyone who already owns it. And why would you buy a car before test driving it? "Thief!", you might shout at him. But, nay, I say. Why?

What does he do when he downloads a game and doesn't like it? Well, he doesn't play it anymore and avoids a bad investment. What does he do when he does like it? And how about if this game supports multiple players - a feature not supported by pirated games? Well, he buys it, and encourages his friends to do the same.

So what's the problem in this - hypothetical - situation?

***End hypothetical situation***

The primary reason for corporations opposing piracy is because it allows the consumer to bypass their veil of advertisement/marketing BS and actually see if the product is worth the money. They want us to have as little information as possible when we're buying their crappy products. Yes, there will always be those dirtbags who download everything illegally - but more laws certainly won't stop them from doing that.

Haha, someone gets it. I pirated BF3,
Then went and bought it.
And now i play it constantly,

If i download a game, and i dont like it, i'm glad i saved myself the anguish of wasting 60 bucks on a piece of crap.

And i would like to see the statistics of what people actually lose due to downloading. Because its only PC that can download games, and pc gamers are few and far between. So they make their games off console.
Movies make most of their money form theatres.
Music makes money through CD sales, concerts, merch.

Most of the bands i listen to make much much much more per year than i do, so the way i see it, they have more than enough to live comfortably and such. I dont. So im not supporting someone elses lifestyle (and look at it this way, bands/singers only see a fraction of CD sales anyways), so im not supporting the riaa, and im not supporting cheap chinese printed CD's.

And, most of the things i do download, i have had before and lost, or have paid to use before, or have paid to see them in concert or in the theater. I watched you play your music, so i've already paid to listen to your music, be it live or digitally.

I do draw the line though. I do support all my favourite local bands by buying their CD's and their merchandise, because i like them and they actually get all of the money for CD sales. Not 10% or less.

Originally posted by RogerT

Originally posted by eNumbra

Originally posted by RogerT
It's the absolute most fun to share your own creations.

Fun indeed, but sharing doesn't put food on the table.

What does food on the table have to do with performing your art?
Again, if that is lost on you, I'm pretty sure you ain't no artist!

The ability to survive in a capitalist society based on the performance of said art.

Or should we all be starving artists living on scraps working part-time jobs, slaving away in salt mines just for the experience of SHARING what we work so hard on.

I love when people appreciate my work, but ffs, artists deserve compensation for their time and talents; if THAT is lost on you I'm pretty sure you ain't no human being.

Originally posted by Jepic
As long as he pays for the "test drive" and in the example for the game the "test gameplay or playthrough".

Oh? And what would happen if, say, Honda started charging customers for test drives, or just stopped doing them all together and insisted that you 'buy the car to find out how good it is'?

Originally posted by CaptainIraq

Originally posted by Jepic
As long as he pays for the "test drive" and in the example for the game the "test gameplay or playthrough".

Oh? And what would happen if, say, Honda started charging customers for test drives, or just stopped doing them all together and insisted that you 'buy the car to find out how good it is'?

You should know that. Actually you can't. They haven't tried that yet.


But what would happen if every car maker adopted my policy. Well then you would see a rise in profit and a decline in losses from letting people "test do".

I quite like making stuff in secondlife (a virtual world)
I make sculptys ...basically 3d models of things (zombies, trees, homes, etc..stuff)

Well, I spent hours upon hours a day..and made some fair money...not enough to call it a job, but enough to pay for the odd new game that came out, etc...mostly a labor of love, but also a nice little side cash thing.

I then seen sales drop...eventually a friend of mine had shown me a build of someone giving away. not even a former customer. He ran a script that stole my sculpty maps and was giving the stuff away.

Now, I am not to shabby at what I do..and I love doing my thing..but this seriously annoyed me. So, I stopped. Since then I have been contacted over and over again by former customers wanting to know where my virtual store is. I took it down..I only sell directly to former customers now, but for the most part, I have stopped building for secondlife. Many good sculpty makers have since left secondlife because of the several copybots and scripts to grab maps...so what is left now is crappy newbie designers and a bunch of old stuff.

Is this the perfect world senario, where the talented simply get frustrated and move on, meanwhile the only thing out there is stolen crap and junk? This is the argument for totally open piracy.
Look, I actually don't mind some piracy...its the mainstreaming of it that is crushing innovation. If someone stole my stuff and simply displayed it in his home or something and worked his arse off to get it to begin with..more power to him..its when he distributes it to every nameless faceless person he comes across with online is where the issue is and is where the loss of motivation is for creators.

If you don't know what secondlife is, well...google it. If you are in secondlife but suspect this story may be a bit false, shoot me an pm and I will let you know my in world game...if I log in again, I will show you some of my stuff that I used to sell.and yep, don't need to hear about the "you should put it back up" speech...f-that. if anything, I will focus my attention on 3d communitys.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Yeah,
Im all for downloading.
But not for re-distribution. If i download something it is for myself and myself only, and whome i decide to let share through listening or watching.
They don't need my 20 dollars, they already make thousands or millions. I need my 20. lol

Originally posted by AzureSky
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Yeah,
Im all for downloading.
But not for re-distribution. If i download something it is for myself and myself only, and whome i decide to let share through listening or watching.
They don't need my 20 dollars, they already make thousands or millions. I need my 20. lol

Then get your twenty by blood, sweat and tears not by stealing it from a band.
We work hard. Work hard yourself.

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by CaptainIraq

Originally posted by Jepic
As long as he pays for the "test drive" and in the example for the game the "test gameplay or playthrough".

Oh? And what would happen if, say, Honda started charging customers for test drives, or just stopped doing them all together and insisted that you 'buy the car to find out how good it is'?

You should know that. Actually you can't. They haven't tried that yet.

edit on 17-12-2011 by Jepic because: (no reason given)

But what would happen if every car maker adopted my policy. Well then you would see a rise in profit and a decline in losses from letting people "test do".

edit on 17-12-2011 by Jepic because: (no reason given)

According to what facts? You're just assuming your own theory is correct to prove your point. Circular logic.

But if you're right and it's so profitable, then why don't they do it in practice? Maybe you should get a job as a marketing adviser...

Originally posted by CaptainIraq

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by CaptainIraq

Originally posted by Jepic
As long as he pays for the "test drive" and in the example for the game the "test gameplay or playthrough".

Oh? And what would happen if, say, Honda started charging customers for test drives, or just stopped doing them all together and insisted that you 'buy the car to find out how good it is'?

You should know that. Actually you can't. They haven't tried that yet.

edit on 17-12-2011 by Jepic because: (no reason given)

But what would happen if every car maker adopted my policy. Well then you would see a rise in profit and a decline in losses from letting people "test do".

edit on 17-12-2011 by Jepic because: (no reason given)

According to what facts? You're just assuming your own theory is correct to prove your point. Circular logic.

But if you're right and it's so profitable, then why don't they do it in practice? Maybe you should get a job as a marketing adviser...

I'm not assuming. It's obvious that if every car manufacturer charges for even test drives then they would see their losses decrease and their gains increase because it's a change that people will have to accept, because after all, everybody will need a car at some point in their life.

I've said it many times before, but I'll say it again; If I enjoy a downloaded album enough, then I will go out and buy a physical copy of whatever I downloaded and support the artist. If the music is absolute garbage, then of course I'm not going to go out and buy it (I'm looking at you Morbid Angel).

I think it's great that the Swiss aren't changing their laws to support large corporations and I think the U.S. should follow this example as well.

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by AzureSky
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Yeah,
Im all for downloading.
But not for re-distribution. If i download something it is for myself and myself only, and whome i decide to let share through listening or watching.
They don't need my 20 dollars, they already make thousands or millions. I need my 20. lol

Then get your twenty by blood, sweat and tears not by stealing it from a band.
We work hard. Work hard yourself.

edit on 17-12-2011 by Jepic because: (no reason given)

I do work.
I work my ass off so whiny ass people can continue to have TV and internet working in their homes. I attended college to do this. And struggling to pay bills and make rent with the girlfriends scaled back hours, she's going to college now too. Implying that that i do not work hard without knowing me is idiotic at best.

And as i said previously, most of the music i listen to, i have seen them all live. therefor, i have already paid to listen to the music, and so i can listen to it whenever i please. A concert ticket is no less than 40 dollars, twice the amount of the CD.

Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver
reply to post by Ixtab

 

No, because downloading is not theft. No 2nd.

Of course it is. I download stuff all the time but I'm not kidding myself. It's theft. Whether it's a physical copy or not, it's someones intellectual property. It's theft.

Originally posted by Ihsahn
I've said it many times before, but I'll say it again; If I enjoy a downloaded album enough, then I will go out and buy a physical copy of whatever I downloaded and support the artist. If the music is absolute garbage, then of course I'm not going to go out and buy it (I'm looking at you Morbid Angel).

I think it's great that the Swiss aren't changing their laws to support large corporations and I think the U.S. should follow this example as well.

edit on 12/17/2011 by Ihsahn because: incomplete

Haha, ZING!
Exactly, why buy something you're gunna hate just because you wanna listen to see if they're good.

Come to think of it, i dont even download music anymore, i just use youtube.

There are more prevalent issues than the big bad piraters.
Like violent crime
a screwed foreign policy
billions sucked from the economy.

Originally posted by AzureSky


And i would like to see the statistics of what people actually lose due to downloading. Because its only PC that can download games, and pc gamers are few and far between. So they make their games off console.

Erm..no
chip the console and you can download whatever console game you want. torrenting console games is just as popular as pc gaming

Movies make most of their money form theatres.

No, they make most of their money from rental outlets (netflix and the like), dvd sales, and pay per view. theaters make a decent chunk, but the return investment comes in the long haul
they gauge movies success based on ticket sales, but the theater doesn't really push forward profits. Do a quick search and you will find films are quite often in the red even when they are blockbusters (rain man, batman, etc)...all did great, and totally no profit due to the endless payments to this and that function..

Music makes money through CD sales, concerts, merch.

Many salesmen do yes...artists get a percent of the profit. less profit, less percent..hense why you see them out on the road all the time trying to make it.

Most of the bands i listen to make much much much more per year than i do, so the way i see it, they have more than enough to live comfortably and such. I dont. So im not supporting someone elses lifestyle (and look at it this way, bands/singers only see a fraction of CD sales anyways), so im not supporting the riaa, and im not supporting cheap chinese printed CD's.

So, you enjoy something, but you don't want to support the person whom makes what you enjoy
I wonder then...since there is no artist or creative designer for potato chips...do you make your own potato chips...or do you support the strict corporate organization that makes them and not bother.
Your argument is that you don't support things you enjoy. That is the most backwards thinking ever.
also, the RIAA spoken to justify your criminal activity makes no sense either...You wear shoes, more than likely made in some chinese sweat shop...do you fully agree with every step of it going from cow murder, to chinese labor, to shipping and finally your local foot locker or do you just buy the shoes because they look cool and feel comfy...or do you steal them off the shelves because you don't agree with the delivery system?

mhmm...ya..moving on

And, most of the things i do download, i have had before and lost, or have paid to use before, or have paid to see them in concert or in the theater. I watched you play your music, so i've already paid to listen to your music, be it live or digitally.

Your all over the place...you start off by saying..oh, I just lost it so making a backup..then, oh, I mean, I went to a concert once and paid 20 bucks, so I am entitled to their lifetime works, etc..
nonsense..and given you are going in 12 different directions, you don't even believe it...your simply trying to justify your theft when you know there is no actual justification.
Just admit it..you are a criminal, you deserve to be punished, but you won't stop until you feel the consequences...because you feel impenetrable behind a computer.

I do draw the line though. I do support all my favourite local bands by buying their CD's and their merchandise,

Why? you seen them once, pirate their entire lifes work and share for all...then tell them to get a job.
what happens if your locals actually get a leg up and do some incredible song that gets noticed? success = right to steal their crap, right? so, in a way, your almost insulting them by saying they aren't good enough to pirate.

total insane rant man....your in the wrong, just accept it..man up and call yourself what you are...your a small time thief whom has no qualms about stealing other peoples stuff and will find a way to justify it somehow..
even the most reasonable argument will not stop you...only a hefty fine, or seeing your personal creations being given away will alter your mindset on this.

I used to pirate...no, it wasn't some great and grand motivation, I knew I was stealing, I knew I was retarding the industrys profit margin and therefore making it less viable to produce more creations..I did it because I was broke and I wanted stuff I couldn't afford.
But I never pretended I was doing something noble...get over yourself.

because i like them and they actually get all of the money for CD sales. Not 10% or less.

edit on 17/12/11 by AzureSky because: (no reason given)

Wait, so, if they only get 10%, you want them to get less? no sense man...makes none whatsoever...anyhow, good luck with your outlook.
Ever considered doing some secondlife sculpty work? I hear it is quite profitable

Originally posted by AzureSky
There are more prevalent issues than the big bad piraters.
Like violent crime
a screwed foreign policy
billions sucked from the economy.

There are more prevalent issues than crime, policy, and economy

Like climate destablization
starvation
earth ending asteroids uncharted that we aren't spending money on tracking.

See, everything can be dismissed for something bigger, and eventually nothing gets looked at.

Originally posted by Jepic
I'm not assuming. It's obvious that if every car manufacturer charges for even test drives then they would see their losses decrease and their gains increase because it's a change that people will have to accept, because after all, everybody will need a car at some point in their life.

"It's obvious that..."

Well now you're just begging the question of whether or not adopting this policy will increase profits.

You say that this policy of charging for test drives will increase profits, and why? Because people will pay for the test drives of course...