Anonymous Press Release Concerning the Situation in Greece

reply to post by nightbringr


My, of course we were mismanaged!!! We are fully aware of that. We are aware that fondamental changes will have to be made, and people will have to work very hard to bring life back to the country. Some things will have to change - but we want to make sure that this change will be a positive one in the long run, and let's face it, no bailout package has succeeded, and that is because they are completely unrealistic.
As for the second question you posted: there are countries (China and Russia) that do want to provide us loans with much lower interests, longer pay-off periods and much more realistic terms. Maybe we could borrow from them.
Or, another idea is to restructure and refuse to pay any kind of debt that comes from political bribes (e.g. mega Siemens scandal). The amount of total debt will be reduced so signifantly, that it will become sustainable. Then, while paying off the now sustainable debt, we collect taxes and tickets (It is estimated that only 10000 people owe the Greek State an astonishing 20.000.000.000 Euros). we will reorganise and reinforce our justice, public sector, tax system, fight against nepotism and corruption in politics. We will start to produce more products than services, fight tax evasion and tax the fortune of the church.
There is the third option of returning to drachma. To be honest, I am quite afraid of this option, although I keep thinking that if I am going to have to lose my entire country, with such a trivial reward like staying in the Euro, then I really don't want to stay in the Euro. Besides, the EU politicians keep failing at their pupose, which is to save the Euro, and from what I get, they don't even think that maybe they should learn from their mistakes. Instead, they keep on repeating them. Sorry, but if I have to choose between being blindly ordered to go somewhere that has already proved to be a dead end, and starvation, then I prefer to starve, and fight my way back, even with the drachma. Even if we will never go back to where we were. Freedom - never know how important it is 'till you 've lost it.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by nightbringr

 

Ues they can, have their Parlament vote these douchewads out, restore the Drachma as the currency and nationalize the central bank and cut and run on the rest of the bankrupted Eurozone!

edit on 14-12-2011 by TheImmaculateD1 because: (no reason given)

Um, do you know ANYTHING about economics?

Address my original question of how a country with a massive trade and budget deficit will survive?

reply to post by spacebot


I am or do none of the above. Read the OP and please refrase.

reply to post by nightbringr


Yes, Greece's only hope now is a debt forgiveness of it's debt or else it will become the next territory of The SCUM! More of the same is clearly not an option.

But for it to happen they'd have to erase their Constitution, erase their sovereign rights!

Originally posted by WalterRatlos

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by Imogene72

 

The entire country is now living on welfare (handouts from other countries). Seems simple enough to me. The kids want more candy.

Actually, you are wrong: it's not welfare it's loans from the EU plus IMF at lower interest than what the country would have otherwise to pay on the free market. And no, the kids don't want more candy; they just want a decent living. There are kids fainting already in school because of hunger. You know there is this stereotype about Greece and Greeks that we are lazy and deserve what we have to endure now in order to make our national debt barely manageable by 2020. We are anything but lazy: we work on average more hours per week (43) than most other EU members and we have lower monthly wages than most other EU members.

Then all the stuff about early retirements paid by the government and all the entitlements are not true. Every news source on the planet is lying about that? Educate me?

Remember, anything you don't pay for yourself that comes from the government is entitlements (candy) which is what I meant. If they take money from somebody else and give it to you, it is candy in my mind. I know our mindset is different because it's so easy to earn money here. Contrary to the liars we see posting here. More than 80% of us are doing very well and living well. We go to work, earn money, pay for ourselves and ask for nothing. Problem is our government started buying votes with handouts and is spending to much.

Originally posted by teapot

Originally posted by McGinty
Is Greece 'ground-zero' for enforcement of NWO ?

....Oh, Greece, the cradle of democracy, such a delicious joke for the 'architects' of global enslavement under one banner!

Perhaps it's no joke to them. Greece is best known as the 'cradle of civilisation' and i'm certain that TPTB see their tyranny as the epitome of civilisation (in which they're ilk keep the world absolutely safe by absolutely controlling the population.

They likely do not see themselves as villains, but as our righteous saviours born to lead us... Much like the delusions of your everyday sociopath. Therefore, choosing such a historically prestigious place to begin their ritualistic domination makes sense.

To predict and defeat these people we must understand how they see themselves - as the righteous - and analyse them thus, and not see them as they appear to us - as pretenders, else profits and tyrants. We need to accurately profile they're phenominon - they likely think they are protecting us from ourselves by beating, enslaving and imprisoning us.

reply to post by Eurisko2012


Planning and foresight would've already ensured that those who might be in a position to make such sensible decisions are not in those positions when phase-1 of the plan begins.

reply to post by sonnny1


just wondering, when it comes time for you to chose between heat to keep your kids warm, or "living within your means"...
which will you chose....

ya see the trick to "living within your means" is to be able to live within your means!!!

reply to post by Imogene72


I actually kind of accept your points too! (if only those in authority could acknowledge that others may have a point, maybe things wouldn't be so bad).

However, some changes are inevitable and can only be blamed on economic reality rather than previous governments and the world of finance at large (who definitely deserve inclusion in the blame game). The main simple change is that Greece as a nation will have to accept significantly later retirement ages in order to get a state pension - this is inevitable, same as in all other countries. The other main point is that Greece will also have to start collecting the correct amount of tax from people. Be under no illusion about this, those who have robbed your state blind for decades should face serious charges and lengthy prison if they continue to avoid. I would almost say it isn't worth trying to back collect, just draw a line and say "done properly" from here. If that happens it would demonstrate serious intent as a nation and you should then be allowed enough leeway to actually grow your economy again, rather than the ridiculous rules, regulations and fines currently been imposed and proposed on you.

Originally posted by Imogene72
reply to post by McGinty

 

"The Shock Doctrine": well, I've read the book and I can tell you this much. It is still at an early stage, but sure feels like it... I very much like what you posted. Very...insightful.

Thank you. The IMF and and the Euro are sheep in wolves clothing. They come baring gifts so you let them in and allow them to help with the housework. Before long they are doing everything for you and it feels great to sit back and enjoy the good life while this amiable helper runs your life for you....

But South America, Jamaica and now Greece have found that this amiable helper wants to charge a lot of money for their work and you have no income, since you let this helper close down all of your manufacturing and export, so you can't pay them. And after all these years you've sat on your backside you're no longer able to run your own life.

The local magistrate (a cousin of the amiable helper) agrees with him that you must handover the keys to your property to the helper and get to work paying him.

You now do the jobs around the house that he had done while you relaxed, and he now relaxes on your bed with your wife until you save enough to be able to pay his wage. But the magistrate has set an interest rate on the wage you owe him that is greater than your greatest potential earnings, so you are now forever enslaved to slaving away to keep your onetime helper comfortable in your bed.

reply to post by Imogene72


I'm from Greece and i'm sick and tired of this.Since all this # started noone stood up(from the citizents) to claim a little responsibility for this situation.Yes the politicians are corrupted and they are thieves,but what did the average citizent do to stop them?Notning.

- People pay more taxes even though they cannot afford it

Yes now we have to pay,because we all knew that big companies,rich people and the church always forgot to pay their share.But did we stood up to them?Did we boycott them somehow?NO

- Pensions have been cut off, so the elderly cannot even afford their medicine, rent and bills

I feel really bad for the elderly people,but how many phantom pensioners exist?How many gave a little gift to the civil servant in charge,to fake papers so they could get an early pension or a pension for disability when they were completely capable of working?Did that civil servant,that now is protesting for the cut offs,did anything to stop the scumbags?NO(he/she actually enjoyed the extra money from "bussiness" like that.)

- People are getting evicted due to loans

Sad but true.BUT what kind of loans?The Greeks here must remember the silly loans invented by the banks."X-mas holiday" loan,"summer vacation" loan etc.In the past 7 years i was offered by two different banks at least 10 different loans and a ton of credit cards.I didn't need them,i never took them.I know people that everytime such an "offer" existed they took it without question.
It's the bank's job to create this kind of loans,are we dump enough to get them?It seems so.

- Protesters die, bleed, suffer

Protester bleed and suffer because they are violent themselves.And they don't die.Actually it was the "protesters" that set the bank on fire,last year,and killed 3 people,because those people dared not to go on a strike.When you invoke violence you will get a reaction.

- The average Greek is being treated like dirt by the politicians and people outside Greece who bought on the media spread propaganda

The average Greek,unfortunatelly is responsible for the politicians.Since '74 the average Greek is voting for the same people over and over again.Although the same people are fooling the Greeks for decades,in the next election they will be elected again.No matter if those politicians destoyed and betrayed the country,when they will make a promise,the sheeps will believe them and run to give their votes.
As for the media i never heard of anyone boycotting them.Even symbolically,you know for 24 hours,noone buys a newspaper or watch tv or turn off the internet.Send them a message that we don't believe them anymore.
We give them power.

- Censorship took over, blogs are closing, Facebook activists are being targeted, freedom of speech is being threatened (minister Adonis Georgiadis threatened by TV that the political asylum of one of our indymedia sites should feel threatened now that he’s also in charge

I read Indymedia sometimes.They started the war when they published names and personal information on people that are labeled fascists.The reason of doing that was to pay them visits(whatever this means).Anyone is free to label someone nazi or fascist and give his personal info.I'm sorry this is unacceptable for me.I'm for freedom of speech,but on every side.Not freedom of speech,until i disagree with someone.Actually the anarchists are using the same methods as the nazis.If they don't agree with you they attack you.

- Reporters are getting killed

The reporter being mentioned here was killed by the people who supposedly fight the system and the goverment.
The Sect of Revolutionaries en.wikipedia.org...
They even sent a manifesto and explainινγ the reasons that they killed him
enimerotikos.blogspot.com...
Whoever wrote this press release should have done a little research.

To sum up.Yes,the people of Greece have been fooled by the politicians many times,but you know what they say:Fool me once shame on you,fool me twice shame on me.And for almost 40 years we are being fooled so... shame on us.
Also ,yes the politicians are corrupt,but how many of our fellow citizents used that for their advantage and to earn money?I'm not saying that every single person of this country is corrupt,but every single citizent is guilty of apathy and not doing anything,until now that it's too late.

Unfortunatelly the poor and the weak will pay the price now.


So dear Anonymous,take your legion and go play elsewhere.

Originally posted by Imogene72
reply to post by spacebot

 

I am or do none of the above. Read the OP and please refrase.

I was reffering to the "Anonymous" personas that circulate in various social networking sites. Sory if I wasn't clear.
On the topic. Greece suffers a massive amount of illegal immigration that CIA and other agencies use as a cover for illegal trafficking of anything that can be trafficked illegaly to Europe from the African continent and through their other main corridor in Turkey that connects the illegal trade with Middle East and Far East in general.
Greece is a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR hub for many things illegal since it entered the euro zone and any American government not only condones this but it help it floorish.
It IS the stepping stone for both Middle East Far East and the African continent thus is a CRUCIAL asset for every clandestine agency anywhere.

IF GREECE IS TO BE WRESTLED AWAY FROM GERMANY AND EUROPE (because this is what is currently happening and uncle Sam is mad because Germany is too much in bed with the Russians) USA WON'T LET GREECE JUST GO AWAY AND ADOPT A DRACHMA IN ITS ORIGINAL STANDARTS, BECAUSE THAT WOULD INHIBIT THE MAJOR FLOW OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION THROUGH GREECE AND THUS JEOPARDIZE THE COVER MANY CLANDESTINE OPERATIONS WITHIN GREECE (mainly American)

So Germany is willing to send Greece away to its fate through pushing them out of the Euro zone and maybe EU too but USA through covert and visible means doing whatever they can to keep Greece IN,and this is literally devastating for the society of that Country.

Many would argue and say that USA is the best ally Greece ever had and they spend a lot of money towards Greece after the WWII through a plan known as the Marshall plan.
What really happened with Greece and this US economic and restructure aid was that there was an agreement with local officials that were bought up from US assets that were the go betweens of this aid deal of US to Greece and they agreed to acknowledge publicly every number of US aid suposedly US told the world they had sended to Greece.

THE REAL NUMBERS OF THE MARSHALL AID PLAN WAS MUCH MUCH LOWER AND THE WHOLE SCHEME WAS SETUP TO BE BLAMED UPPON THE "CORRUPTION" OF THE STARVING POSTWAR GREEK SOCIETY.

See, the accusations trick that the Germans used recently was in fact an old American trick played against Greece after WWII ended.

Any other "help"that may arrive in the future so Greece wont be left alone to do on its own decisions about their own currency it will come in the SAME MANER. All the while Greek society is facing the start of a humanitarian crisis.

GEE...THANKS USA!!!! (again)

And there was also a rumor that uncle Sam was sending over 400 units of used heavy tanks as aid to Greece.
The real deal is that the current US government under the Obama administration doesn't want to spend money to dispose of all those 400 heavy tanks and another 600 units of other vehicles because it is majorly JUNK!
SO THEY HOPED THAT SOME OLDAND TRUSTED CORRUPT US ASSET IN THE GREEK GOVERNMENT WOULD CUT A DEAL AND WOULD COVER EXPENSES FOR THE REMOVAL OF THIS JUNK AND ALSO MAKE IT APPEAR AS AN AID TO GREECE.

Hey, thanks again Mr.Obama and Ms Clinton you can both go and F*** yourselves!

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by sonnny1

 

just wondering, when it comes time for you to chose between heat to keep your kids warm, or "living within your means"...
which will you chose....

ya see the trick to "living within your means" is to be able to live within your means!!!

Well,the real trick is to not have kids if you cant afford them,and to not borrow money you cant pay back.

There was a time where people leaned to be self sufficient. Maybe people could learn to live that way again. You cant eat your iPods,computers and money.

Originally posted by teapot

Originally posted by Eurisko2012

Originally posted by teapot

Originally posted by McGinty
Is Greece 'ground-zero' for enforcement of NWO ?

Sure seems to be!

25+ years since the former Eastern Bloc abandoned communism, embraced capitalist consumerism. The yoke of debt and the frenzy to produce more, cheaper, useless stuff!

Oh, Greece, the cradle of democracy, such a delicious joke for the 'architects' of global enslavement under one banner!

Step 1: Greece should jump out of the Euro.

Step 2: Start printing money.

Step 3: Think economic growth.

QE?

As if the policy makers would consider distrubuting the new print run to ordinary people! No, QE exacerabates the problem because all the new fake money is only used to cook the fake books and encourage further fake national debt.

Stimulus packages are never really about free markets and improving the lot of the common man.

Not QE.

Basically, burn the Euros on Friday.

Start over with a new currency on Monday. - Bring back the Drachma -

Start printing Drachmas.

The Greek destiny will see a ray of sunshine the moment they do that.

Don't worry, the rest of the EU will say fine. Good luck. You are out.
--------
Over the weekend brainstorm about growth.

reply to post by Phantom traveller


It was a wonderful party for 30 years.

Now the money is running out and change is required.

Choose the right path.

reply to post by sonnny1

could afford my kids when I had them, you realize that my husband is making alot less money now, as a journeyman tool and die makers than he did in the 80's as a young machinist with just a few years under his belt....

and...um....the biggest bill I have to pay outside of the house mortgage, which is paid by the way, is the bill to fix one broken ankle, of which, well, if it wasn't fixed, I wouldn't have been able to walk again I don't believe, and then dear, well, the fine US taxpayer would be pay my disability!!!

and I don't own an ipod, a cell phone, yes I own a computer....

I've spent many a weeks in my lifetime eating every other day because there wasn't enough food, was just about denied care for that broken ankle....

I know better than to start degrading those who have found themselves in a bind!! not all of them are where they are at simply because they "lived beyond their means"!!! and to tell ya the truth, some should be showing them a little more respect, since well, they chose to keep working, keep contributing to society, even though they could have easily quite the danged job, divorced the money earning hubby, and gone on welfare, and had their medical care free, plenty to eat, nice warm apartment, free childcare and education!!!

Originally posted by Blaine91555

Then all the stuff about early retirements paid by the government and all the entitlements are not true. Every news source on the planet is lying about that? Educate me?

Gladly! I'll start by saying that "between black and white there are infinite shades of gray!" What I mean by this in relation to your legitimate questions is this: there are two sides to the coin of of early retirements in Ellas (that's Greece for the rest of the world. What's in a name? Well, educated people in Native American history will know that the Great Plains tribe known as the Sioux calls itself Lakota (or Nakota or Dakota. Sioux was the last syllable of a very large and difficult to pronounce curse word their mortal enemies used to call them. Same with us: the Turks called us that and it stuck.)

Back to early retirements: there is/was a large number of legal early retirements and there is an unknown shady number of illegal retirement. In the case of legal early retirement, e.g. due to disability or for certain professions, e.g. the military or woman, there is nothing illegal or immoral or whatever about it. Our "wise"(?) politicians voted for those laws under constant pressure from Unions. But the point is in the case of the legal early retirements, the beneficiaries fulfilled all legal requirements to retire, i.e. they paid their share of social security over the required required by law and when they also fulfilled the time requirements for retirements many did indeed retire. Personally, I belong to legally early retirement due to disability at the age of 36 (I'm 51 now).

The other shady and illegal and highly immoral IMHO side of the coin are a number of people retired for various reason without having fulfilled all legal requirements. Typically and just one example: early retirement due to disability. There was this story of a whole village somewhere where all residents or the majority of residents were on early retirement due to blindness, yet you would see man in the coffee shops play backgammon. So both exists.

It's important to note that those people cheated but only as far as the disability was concerned. They had paid their social security share in full and additionally spent lot's of money to bribe doctor's to get the necessary disability certification. So, in conclusion the root of the evil of illegal early retirement is high corruption, but hey what else is new? Funnily, some Germans who would like to school us about corruption let one of their big Corporations take part in it to get public works in Greece and in Argentina (I read about that the last few days).

Originally posted by Blaine91555

Remember, anything you don't pay for yourself that comes from the government is entitlements (candy) which is what I meant. If they take money from somebody else and give it to you, it is candy in my mind. I know our mindset is different because it's so easy to earn money here. Contrary to the liars we see posting here. More than 80% of us are doing very well and living well. We go to work, earn money, pay for ourselves and ask for nothing. Problem is our government started buying votes with handouts and is spending to much.

As I stated above in the case of early retirements and especially those for valid and legal reasons the beneficiary has already paid his fair share into the social security fund. So, it's not a hand out and it's not candy. It's something you paid for in full on your part (the other part typically comes from the employer in Greece in the case of workers and employees.)

The bloating of the civil services of the government for vote grabbing reason is a valid argument. But it is also important to note that not all Greeks are corrupt and used to government handouts. There are hard working people, mainly in the private sector, who work more hours than most of their European colleges and get paid significantly less than most of their European colleges. Finally, since you spoke about "our government" in the above quote I would like to know: Do you live in Greece?

Originally posted by Eurisko2012

Originally posted by teapot

Originally posted by Eurisko2012

Originally posted by teapot

Originally posted by McGinty
Is Greece 'ground-zero' for enforcement of NWO ?

Sure seems to be!

25+ years since the former Eastern Bloc abandoned communism, embraced capitalist consumerism. The yoke of debt and the frenzy to produce more, cheaper, useless stuff!

Oh, Greece, the cradle of democracy, such a delicious joke for the 'architects' of global enslavement under one banner!

Step 1: Greece should jump out of the Euro.

Step 2: Start printing money.

Step 3: Think economic growth.

QE?

As if the policy makers would consider distrubuting the new print run to ordinary people! No, QE exacerabates the problem because all the new fake money is only used to cook the fake books and encourage further fake national debt.

Stimulus packages are never really about free markets and improving the lot of the common man.

Not QE.

Basically, burn the Euros on Friday.

Start over with a new currency on Monday. - Bring back the Drachma -

Start printing Drachmas.

The Greek destiny will see a ray of sunshine the moment they do that.

Don't worry, the rest of the EU will say fine. Good luck. You are out.
--------
Over the weekend brainstorm about growth.

Well, I wish it was so easy. Yes, we could do that, but our lenders (mainly Germany and France) won't let us. Some of their banks would go bust and then probably the whole dream of a united Europe, the common market, the Eurozone would go bust. That is the main reason our European partners are bailing us out, because if we default on our debt, their banks go bust. A return to the Drachma and printing money like hell without a complete default on our accumulated debt would only lead to high inflation (the main reason why Germany stubbornly refuses to agree to Euro bonds) and would not solve our debt problems, indeed it would make it worse, because we would have to repay our debt in Euro.

Personally, the best solution to the whole mess would be if the whole world would agree to right of debts and all countries of the world start over on a clean slate. It will never happen though; it's far more probable that if the crisis deepens and engulfs the whole world once more we will be heading for WWIII (would also partially solve the overpopulation problem). The only question for me in this highly pessimistic scenario would be: will it remain a war fought with conventional weapons or will it escalate to nuclear, biological and chemical warfare?

reply to post by WalterRatlos


Greece is small potatoes.

France and Germany can afford to write it off as a loss.

Jump now!!!

Start Monday morning at --- zero ---. Default on everything. Sorry this situation is desperate.
We are out. Wait for the complaining, then say sorry we are out. Sue us!
--------
Then start over with zero debt and a mountain of Drachmas.

Then choose your path wisely. Don't repeat the same mistakes.

Originally posted by Eurisko2012
reply to post by WalterRatlos

 

Greece is small potatoes.

France and Germany can afford to write it off as a loss.

Jump now!!!

Start Monday morning at --- zero ---. Default on everything. Sorry this situation is desperate.
We are out. Wait for the complaining, then say sorry we are out. Sue us!
--------
Then start over with zero debt and a mountain of Drachmas.

Then choose your path wisely. Don't repeat the same mistakes.

The problem is though that it isn't Greece who decide how much that mountain of Drachmas is worth - it is the world markets.

For example, Greece could declare that a Drachma is worth 2 Euros. If the global markets do not agree, then Greece has to look at it again and re evaluate to maybe 2 Drachmas being worth 1 Euro, and so on.

Do you see the problem here? Even if Greece chooses this option, there is no easy way out of the debt. And believe me, that is exactly how the global markets would react to Greece defaulting and restoring the Drachma. The result would be the new currency being just as worthless short term as the Euro is currently in Greece, with costs of living soaring and a potential bout of hyper inflation.

I keep saying it (and it gives me NO pleasure), whatever happens now, the Greek people are going to suffer for quite a few years to come (potentially a couple of decades).