Wealth Distribution

Some recent ATS discussions have raised issues around population control, resource depletion and economic breakdown all in the middle of a US election campaign watched in bathed breath by the entire world.

The creation of wealth is at its source based on natural resources. Our economic systems have arrived at the point were regions were raw materials are still available cannot sustain their own basic needs.

Food, water, clothing and shelter are all we need for basic survival and good health. The rest is just so much �bling bling�. In a world were we have a percentage of the population living on �estates� and jet-setting around the world with their expensive cars, clothes, hotels and every amenity a human could want and more, the rest are starving. This is immoral and unacceptable.

Is sustainability of a world population where everyone�s basic needs are met achievable?

To date, our models of wealth creation and distribution (be they political, economic or ideological) have failed.

I do believe we are turning a corner, entering the beginning of the end of the oil age. Industrialization will have to be based on sustainable models and that means that the age of rampant consumerism characteristic of �western� societies is also at an end.

Despite the militaristic response of both the poor and the rich, the resulting geopolitical chaos that is ensuing and our reticence to change the way we live, we will have no choice. So what will it be?

Can a new system be planned and implemented or does it have to emerge out of the destruction of the current one?

Eventually the current systems will have to change or face massive downfalls. The corporations attempt to keep the oil age flowing because for them there is massive amounts of money which could be earned.


To them, its not about a cleaner Earth and a healthy population... but it is profit which concerns them more than the future.

Profits might be what some people soley care about, but I am more concerned with ensuring everyone has the highest standard of living possible by available means. I believe in production for use before profit, so much of what is produced today is wasted. The produced items could be used to help out the population as a whole but instead it is treated as garbage.


I have no problem with the wealthy, they can remain wealthy but the segment of starving and those suffering from diseases which could be treated with things funded by money that is instead redistributed off to mindless foreign interventions which lack a purpose, and channeled into other programs which have the sole intention of the elimination of life and the promotion of corruption, rather than the sustainment of it, and a better world. You have people in some countries dying from the simplest of things, usually third world countries due to the fact that they have often been exploited by the more wealthy 1st world nations and left poor and dead.


We are still a little way off from the days in which the current systems will be unable to deal with the problems.


Interesting thread.

[edit on 8-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

i say tax the hell out of the super rich, yes in some circumstances they earned their money but surely they can afford to part with some of their plentlyful cash.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
i say tax the hell out of the super rich, yes in some circumstances they earned their money but surely they can afford to part with some of their plentlyful cash.

Same
My sociology teacher always said that the rich should have to pay more tax

Originally posted by infinite
Same

My sociology teacher always said that the rich should have to pay more tax

OMG me and infinite agree on something political

only joking

see i'm not as right wing as i make myself to be

Nice logic your teacher has, maybe next time you can ask her what the definition of a socialist means...

I'm glad i'm not part of the EU... You guys all seem to share the same idea:

Robbing people is ok because their income is higher then yours?

I guess the hard workers lose over there...

Originally posted by UK Wizard
OMG me and infinite agree on something political

only joking

see i'm not as right wing as i make myself to be

I know
*hears that hell has frozen over*

Only playing, its true though, the rich should have to pay more tax. Just think how much footballers earn etc,

[edit on 8-9-2004 by infinite]

It has nothing to do with "robbing" the rich. The rich can remain rich, with all the great things they own. Plus we aren't talking about using wealth from individuals but instead corporations which are owned by stock-holders. It is a progressive tax system based on the ability to pay which I am promoting.

People always immediately think of "equalized" wages when it comes to a socialist system. It is a common misconception... And the system doesen't hand you a car, free gas, all that stuff. It just ensures your most basic needs are covered (food and water) With all the money wasted on cowboy-like interventions in Iraq, the money could be used to improve
lives at home first.

We've seen what corporations have been doing these days (controlling political events, using huge sums of wealth to fund corrupt candidate, making profits from foreign wars where people have died) It is only fair these organizations are taxed.

Truelies mentions about how the hardest workers tend to be the richest people, it's common conservative paranoia over where the wealth is going. I feel as if some of the hardest workers are those struggling to have money to buy food and water and sometimes with no success.

Most people wouldn't choose to live poorly out of pure laziness... it often has plenty to do with disability, lack of opportunities, lower intelligence.. things beyond our control.
[edit on 8-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 8-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

To me it seems to mainstream of an idea to ever be able to incorporate...who's moaning and complaining? we are...the middle class.....

I know lots of people who make sick amounts of money and live a unimaginable lifestyle - I can't tell you the last time they ever said anything about feeling sorry for people less fortunate than themselves....those people only exist in a time of need or by some miracle they became wealthy after being less fortunate...

People are too concerned about their investments, their 10 homes and 20 cars....the value of their stocks and the cost of their next mansion that they don't have the time to care about the poor - the majority of filthy rich people I know are shallow and have no morals - they're racist, bigots, elitists and bastards....

But they throw great parties...........

Its not robbing the rich, its making sur the rich pay their dues to society. The way mopst of the mega rich make it so rich, is they take advantage of the poor and basically use them for labour at minimal wages. If the rich corporation owners agreed to raise the wages they pay their workers so they can afford a better lifestyle then maybe they shouldnt pay such high tax. But in an age where the rich do nothing but exploit others so they can sit on their pile of goldm they dont deserve any benefits or favours. In fact i think we need some sort of Robin Hood, but instead of one person it needs to be thousands of people worldwide willing to fight for what is right

While i'll agree that the rich have a NOBLE calling to do more than an equal share of providing to their society, i cant blame them for being rich.

Asian x says,

they take advantage of the poor and basically use them for labour at minimal wages.

Hmm so no blame to be cast for those workers for not getting better educatedand/or applying themselves to better their employment options? These workers have no responsibillity to do more to improve their lot in life eh?

No wonder socialism is soo popular (LOL) it sounds like the lazy mans way to get ahead. Tax the crap out of the productive and give to the slackers.

Redoct says,

disability, lack of opportunities, lower intelligence.. things beyond our control.

Thanks for insulting the disabled and the lowly intelligent. Id think that these poeple would enjoy as much independance as they can and saying that they are less capable than others is discouraging to them to say the least. IF they are truely that disabled/stupid, then they do desreve compassionate assistance, but dont talk condecendingly to them while you help them.

As for opportunities being "out of our control", while sometimes they just pop up, many more are opportunities that are MADE....a person tried to set themself in positions where opportunities will occur more frequently...and as often is the case with the rich, some of them just made their own opportunities....the MOST important thing about opportunity weather it pops up, or youve positioned yourself to have/make them is....you must still then capitalize on it!!! Opportunities knock all the time, but if your not ready, willing, or in a position to take advantage of them, then it will pass you by.
Heck, some people dont even try to sieze the initiative in this fashon.

RedOct says,

To them, its not about a cleaner Earth and a healthy population... but it is profit which concerns them more than the future.

I also agree that corporate greed is part of the problem. But again
we the people can simple stop sending money to them by refusing to do business with them.
But oh yeah,
the people have NO power. they have nothing thats not given to them.

Bilking the investors (shareholders) in a company out of their rights to earn something from their efforts would cripple many of these companies, which would mean less jobs/opportunity as those companies closed up shop.
next we'll have to start dishing out welfareto companies too eh?

Where/what a company does with its profits is their concern.
While altruism is a great ideal, its NOT mandatory for anyone to have to provide/share resources.

Im not advocating abuse of resources/people certanlty not by corporations, but i will not tolorate that everyone deserves an equal slice of the pie either.
Its a jungle out there, as it has always been...
eat or be eaten is a basic rule of LIFE. Life is rarely EQUAL for everyone, or every situation.

As much as it pains me I must agree with Caz on this one

What the hell gives you the RIGHT TO TAKE SOMEONES PROPERTY?

That is what most social programs are taking something from someone and giving it to someone else. I have no problem with a safty net for the truely disabled and a hand up for the truely needy but if the problem is you think you should not have to work for 8-9 dollars an hour than screw you, starve.

People can bitch and moan about business all they want but if it werent for the businessman MOST OF US WOULD BE STARVING.

How many of you own your own business? Along with the tax breaks that daddy Bush and company give compines to move I think this is one of the MAIN reasons behind outsourcing.

Face it how much is a freaking floor sweeper worth?

That is what America is all about working your way up, our sucess stories used to be about the guy who started out sweeping the floor and ended up owning the company now they are about sueing the company because the Man who works circles around you, puts in twice as much overtime, takes on projects on his own etc gets promoted over you.

NOBODY deserves something for nothing.

Now we can go back to disagreeing with each other Caz

I would also like to add that you put more into a government like that,
then then you get out...

By far, you don't get respected the way you guys think you would. You wouldn't get that much from them, whatever your looking to get... They would be pretty much dictating to you what your life is going to be like in terms of social issues and wealth issues...

Isn't it just better to work hard, educate your minds, and go get a job or have your own business where you can live comfortably...


Nobody is forcing you to work at wendy's or mcdonald's... You put up with that job, nobody is forcing you to sit on your ass and stay home from a college degree, nobdoy is telling you that you are stupid...

So where do you get this logic from??

You create the life you want by either working for it or not working for it...
It's not the cirumstances that will better your life in the long run, it's you, as the person, who is going to make your life better of worse...

If you choose not to go into the world with bravery and conviction thats fine, , but don't make other people suffer just because you can't stand anybody doing better then you...

You don't have that right to take from someone else for your own good...

Listen to yourselves... All I see is a bunch of lazy personalities sitting around like rodents waiting for someone to surrender their wallets to you... How pathetic is that...

Earn your way, people do it all the time....

It's hard to be strong when you let your weaknesses get the better of you isn't it.

[edit on 9-9-2004 by TrueLies]

Questions:

Who says the rich are the only hard workers???

Who says that the poor don't work hard???

And note that Gools was not only talking about the United States and the Western world. He's talking about the entire planet. Every human life on this planet should have the resources to survive, and with the current system of the Western world it will never happen. To say "survival of the fittest" in this instance is heartless.

Here's a link that I read yesterday (via another thread) that this thread reminded me of:

www.projectcensored.org...

And this is the thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Some quotes:

However, since the late 1970s wealth inequality, while stabilizing or increasing slightly in other industrialized nations, has increased sharply and dramatically in the United States. While it is no secret that such a trend is taking place, it is rare to see a TV news program announce that the top 1% of the U.S. population now owns about a third of the wealth in the country. Discussion of this trend takes place, for the most part, behind closed doors.

During the short boom of the late 1990s, conservative analysts asserted that, yes, the gap between rich and poor was growing, but that incomes for the poor were still increasing over previous levels. Today most economists, regardless of their political persuasion, agree that the data over the last 25 to 30 years is unequivocal. The top 5% is capturing an increasingly greater portion of the pie while the bottom 95% is clearly losing ground, and the highly touted American middle class is fast disappearing.

As always, America�s economic trends have a global footprint�and this time, it is a crater. Today the top 400 income earners in the U.S. make as much in a year as the entire population of the 20 poorest countries in Africa (over 300 million people). But in America, national leaders and mainstream media tell us that the only way out of our own economic hole is through increasing and endless growth�fueled by the resources of other countries.

If the world economy collapses because of this, it will bite the rich in the butt anyway.

EDIT: And more!!!:

www.dollarsandsense.org...

www.pbs.org...

[edit on 9-9-2004 by TheBandit795]

TheBandit795 well said.



People keep mentioning the idea of working your way up to gain more money. Well that is all good and hopefully everyone is capable of this. However, I keep saying that the system dosen't provide you with everything you desire.. it just provides you with the basic needs of life food/water which we have more than enough of, and often is wasted heavily.


CazMedia: I am not insulting anyone, it is a fact that there is a segment of the population like this.. those with lower ability, lower intelligence, disabilities. Sure the ones that are independent good for them but, I am not insulting them by saying that the socials systems could help those who cannot do much for themselves.

I highly doubt those living off the current social programs in the U.S.A. are all lazy bums, not many people would choose to live very poorly... some are poor due to inability, yes there are those who are lazy but they are small precentage.

Millions fail to vote in each elections so should we scrap the entire democratic system? Same with social programs, don't scrap it because a few use it in an unfair manner. The programs are better off being worked at the community level as the Federal government is not capable of the organization at a national level.

The conservatives keep saying "be strong be strong be strong be strong and you can do anything" However there still is a segment of the population who are not capable of these great things. They should not have to suffer because they are not capable by nature.

Better management of resources and money could fix a ton of problems with the current systems.

[edit on 9-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by RedOctober90

I highly doubt those living off the current social programs in the U.S.A. are all lazy bums, not many people would choose to live very poorly... some are poor due to inability, yes there are those who are lazy but they are small precentage.

Better management of resources and money could fix a ton of problems with the current systems.

[edit on 9-9-2004 by RedOctober90]

Not all are of course. I know several that depend on programs and due to advancing health problems I might soon be dependent on them myself, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN I HAVE A RIGHT TO SOMEONE ELSES PROPERTY.

The ones I know are about evenly split between those that truely need help and those just sponging off the Government.

I have NO PROBLEM giving part of my check to someone that really needs it as a matter of fact I give beyond what they take from my check, I also donate to local charities and help build homes for the homeless, I also help troubled kids through Martial arts training.

The problem I do have is with those who would TAKE what I have regaurdless of my wishes and give to whoever they please whither I think they need it or not. This could be taken care of by keeping it at a local level with a minumum of Federal oversite.

But there are a fairly large group that milk the system.

I know one woman that was a crank junkie that was preganet with her fifth kid, each with a different father, that I told she needed to stop shooting up be cause it could harm the baby.

Know what she told me?

IF THE CHILD WAS BORN DEFORMED OR RETARDED SHE WOULD GET MORE MONEY.

Why should ONE PENNY of my money go to a bitch like this.

There was a happy ending though the children were taken away from her when she refused to leave her boy-friend who was raping one of her girls.


I do believe your last statement though better Management is the key, I think we could better help those who need it at a fraction of the cost as now

[edit on 9-9-2004 by Amuk]

I don't mind helping people in need... I really don't...

However it should be on my own time and my own dime not have it taken from me and then not know exactly where my money went to begin with..
Don't forget the government will happily take half of your paycheck for itself, and give the other half of what they take to whomever...

Whenever I go to tim horton's I put money in the charity box..
Whenever I'm at a convenient store I slip money into the box...

The most i've ever given in a circumstance like that was 20.00

now you all think wow thats alot to put into a box like that but it isn't. It's not enough but I do my part... It all adds up...


Mind you i'm not working at the moment anyway due to immigration matters, so this is money left over in my bank, and i'm doing this...

So to have my money taken out of a paycheck I work hard for is not right...

My argument is that you should do this on your own terms...

I don't understand when whoopi goldberg said that the rich people need to start giving more to the disenfranchised..

If she is so gung ho about this why doesn't she give half of her millions of dollars a paycheck to poor people in the inner cities?
What about education or schools...

Seems to be that government does a better job of #ing up then fixing problems... I see a pattern here... Privitised charites and organizations should be the way if you care so much about where you money is going, at least this way you can see where you money is going and you have control of how much, when, and where it goes...

Since it is your property, your hard earned money, your decision....
Not the thieves... ahem, I mean.... Government...

Originally posted by UK Wizard
i say tax the hell out of the super rich, yes in some circumstances they earned their money but surely they can afford to part with some of their plentlyful cash.

that could work. i like that than taking money from people who work for it and giving it to people who dont or wont work for it

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
that could work. i like that than taking money from people who work for it and giving it to people who dont or wont work for it

I already asked those questions, see my post above.