Pakistan says U.S. drones in its air space will be shot down

reply to post by brill

Really ? It seems more like the US doesn't publicly acknowledge this campaign and that the Pakistani government "might" be in agreement. I don't think anyone can make this statement with certainty. Naturally each side will contradict the other in this situation.

I've proved this statement in a subsequent post.

You don't give an entire airbase for this exact purpose without approving of the actions that will be taken.

And with reckless abandon, but all in the fog of war (although war has not officially been claimed). If I witnessed people I knew, that were innocent, being bombed to pieces I'm fairly certain I would harbour as much hate and resentment as possible.

With reckless abandon?

BS.

Reckless abandon would be carpet bombing a residential neighborhood. It's war. declared or not, both sides of this agreement KNEW there would be civilian casualties. The US AND Pakistan both did what they could to minimize it because they knew the political pressure would eventually become to much to contain. But what Pakistan counted on was the US taking the lion's share of the blame. We did.

Reckless abandon would mean that we deliberately targeted citizens. We did not.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by GLaDOS

 

"According to everyone" is not a legitimate source.

I want numbers by independent sources.

Secondly the US does not target civilians. And we have even called off strikes because civilians were close by. Sometimes though, it isn't always possible to avoid all civilian casualties. They are regrettable and heart wrenching results of the ugliest act that humanity engages in, war.

Lastly, if Pakistan deliberately targeted a school to kill one terrorist and wound up destroying a school full of children knowingly, that is called a WAR CRIME. The US does NOT engage these types of targets unless left with no other choice.

Here, www.channel4.com...
"The US does not target civilians" riiggghhttt tell that to the million orphaned children in Iraq
And what if Pakistan said it was an accident? would you let it go? of course not, you want revene.

Originally posted by projectvxn
Reckless abandon would be carpet bombing a residential neighborhood. It's war. declared or not, both sides of this agreement KNEW there would be civilian casualties. The US AND Pakistan both did what they could to minimize it because they knew the political pressure would eventually become to much to contain. But what Pakistan counted on was the US taking the lion's share of the blame. We did.

Reckless abandon would mean that we deliberately targeted citizens. We did not.

edit on 11-12-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

Call it what you like but the hate is simply amplified. I'm curious, and I apologize for stepping outside the context of this thread, but what would you do if your family were blown to pieces for doing nothing wrong. Not saying there isn't an objective for the US military machine, but the collateral damage could haunt that nation for decades.

brill

reply to post by GLaDOS


Rightttt Americans are the only ignorant ones in the world,give me a break.

As for the op..while I don't totally agree with everything he's said he is right to an extent.Also,I do believe Pakistan has the right to shoot down ANYTHING in it's airspace.Just as the US would if another country was dumb enough to try the samething.

reply to post by GLaDOS


You said thousands.


Where are those numbers?

You seem to be under the impression that I am denying that civilians are being killed. I'm not.

Secondly, the US does NOT DELIBERATELY target civilians. Period.

As far as deaths in Iraq, not all can be attributed to US involvement. There was and still is sectarian violence in Iraq that claimed more lives than US military action has since the beginning of the invasion.

You arguments are more emotional than fact based. I recommend switching gears.

reply to post by brill


I'm not discounting the fact that these things happen. Nor am I saying that they have no consequences.

but it's a totally different thing to say that the US does it deliberately and that it acts with reckless abandon. This is not the case.

reply to post by projectvxn


Are you really denying the thousands of Pakistani civilians that are being murdered by U.S. drone strikes? I think you are purposely denying the facts in the hopes that none of us will call you out on it.

War Related Death and Injury in Pakistan, 2004-2011

Pakistan is at war. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that there are several interrelated armed conflicts underway in Pakistan. By this report's conservative estimate about 35,600 Pakistanis have been killed from 2004-2010 and more than 40,000 have been injured during that period by the various parties to the conflict. Given the pace of the fighting in 2011, several thousand more have likely already been killed and wounded this year. Specifically, from January to through August 2011 about 400 have been killed in drone strikes, and another 500 killed in 2011 by militant suicide attacks. Since 2004, perhaps as many or more civilians may have died due to armed conflict in Pakistan as have died in Afghanistan. Most of the fighting is concentrated in the Northwest, but the bloodshed not infrequently affects civilians throughout the rest of the country

Judging by your previous tactics, you will discredit the source and refuse to give it any merit. It's up to you if you want to do that or not, as it's a well sourced paper with peer reviews. If you don't agree with it please point out which portions that you believe are false.

I forgot to point out that not all the deaths in this paper are from drone attacks as it clearly says. I will edit more sources for dead civilians in just a moment.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by projectvxn


aztlan.net...
They seem to be very proud of what they done.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
YES Really....

How many years now have these strikes been going on? The Pakistanis have been silent the whole time. Why? Because we were fighting the same enemy. That's why. The problem here is that the Pakistani right hand doesn't know what it's left hand has been up to.

So it sounds more like opportunity given the confusion and uncertainty. I won't argue the region is cluster%^&* but it would appear they have had enough both publicly and perhaps privately.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Both sides stink to high hell here but the OP appears to be just baiting and trolling.

He reeled you in apparently

Touché, but it also assured me that I wouldn't miss out on your invaluable insight.

brill

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Hey Einstein..

Where in any of that does it claim that those thousands were killed by US Drones?

From your own Source

While the U.S. drone strikes are widely discussed in the Western media, drone strikes are not the only, or even greatest source of war related civilian death, injury and displacement in Pakistan.

The Taliban, al Qaeda, and members of other militant organizations have killed thousands of civilians in Pakistan using suicide attacks, assassination, and ambushes. The Pakistani Security Forces have also killed civilians with mortars, direct fire, and with bombs as they target militants and fight and to support a precarious government.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by projectvxn


Civilian Harm and Conflict in Northwest Pakistan

Since 2001, the conflict in northwest Pakistan has killed and injured thousands of civilians, displaced millions, and destroyed countless homes and livelihoods. The warring parties include Pakistani forces, US forces, and militant groups. This report documents civilian losses as a result of this armed conflict, analyzes the humanitarian, security, and strategic consequences of those losses, and examines existing-and needed-efforts by warring parties to make amends to survivors.

As you said collateral damage cannot be avoided in certain situations but the drone attacks in Pakistan are clearly out of control. There is no justifying any of this.

reply to post by SLAYER69


It says 400 this year alone Point Dexter.

If Pakistan sent drones here I'd shoot em down too. Don't blame them for that. As to the money we send them for their "cooperation" or whatever? Well we should all by now know where that goes, and it should be stopped immediately, no matter how or if they backpedal on this. In fact, all foreign aid should be stopped indefinitely, until we get a very clear picture and transparent plan in place for exactly where the money is going and why.

Originally posted by GLaDOS
reply to post by projectvxn

 

aztlan.net...
They seem to be very proud of what they done.

Where are the thousands?

You go ahead and keep posting things that have nothing to do with the discussion.

By the way, everyone in these photos were prosecuted and either jailed or kicked out of the military with dishonorable discharges. Which is worse than having felonies on your record.

Originally posted by Osito
reply to post by milkyway12

 

trillions of people

World population is 7 Billion.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

It says 400 this year alone Point Dexter.

ah yes...

400 is a lot when one is too many I'll agree but you gave the impression [and somebody was dumb enough to star your post] that there were tens of thousands being killed meanwhile your own source contradicts you.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


And whether or nor it was Pakistan or the extremist forces who were responsible for those deaths, I'm sure they will all be blamed on the US by people here on ATS.

Just like every death in Iraq is the fault of US action alone. Right?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Please explain how my own source contradicts me, and which statement of mine it contradicted.

I'm assuming you read the whole source and nowhere in it did it say that thousands of Pakistani civilians have died at the hands of American drone strikes since 2004?